Truck configuration vs door tag

[MrVan]

I know this issue comes often and gets debated heavily but I don't think this issue has been discussed from this point of view before.

This is in regard to the small difference between a 3/4 ton vs 1 ton SRW truck that in many cases is nothing more than 1 extra leaf in the rear springs on the one ton to increase Payload capacity. All other components on the two trucks are equal and the same. But if a RV'er adds air bags or the extra leaf to the rear springs on a 3/4 ton there are those who vehemently argue that that doesn't give the 3/4 ton the same payload capacity as a one ton version of the same truck. I understand that the door pillar sticker doesn't change when this is done but IMHO the load capability of the 3/4 truck is now the same as the 1 ton truck as long as the axle ratings and the tire ratings are not exceeded. In my example the axle ratings and the tire ratings are the same on both trucks which is quite common. Just the payload spec is different.

Ok, so the argument is the truck capability didn't change because the door specs didn't change.

Now lets consider this change. Lets say a truck originally came with Load Range E tires and the door sticker so referenced that in its weight ratings. But the owner replaces the Load Range E tires with Load Range D tires. Now if one follows the above logic the truck capability didn't change because the door sticker didn't change. I don't buy into that at all. The trucks load capability has been reduced but the sticker didn't change.

So it seems to me that using the argument that since the door sticker didn't change when an owner makes significant changes to the truck when going up in weight capability doesn't hold water when the owner makes changes going down in weight capability. To me the argument is pure argumentive rather than based on facts.

[Campinfan]

Remember, not that I am recommending this....the warranty can only be voided if the mfg can show that your modification caused it. So if you tow heavy and your electric windows quit, it is still under warranty.

[mowermech]

for those who can purchase NEW vehicles, "warranty" may be a valid issue.
For many of us, the manufacturers warranty is a big NON-issue. It expired long before we bought the vehicle!

[BenK]

8iron wrote:
snip....

All well and fine, but I think the ongoing argument regarding late model F250/F350 differences is are they actually engineering differences or merely labelling differences to meet sub 10,000# GVRW licencing and registration standards?

Embedded in what I said and here is the detail to your point

MAYBE

they are the exact same but the OEM has decided to label
one with a higher rating, which will have that one stressed more than
the one rated less

Meaning that one will have higher MTBF numbers, therefore higher warranty
costs to the OEM

Meaning why they charge more for the higher rated

Meaning that the door label is what it is RATED for, even though
they are the exact same vehicle (for arguments sake on this discussion)

We being on the outside of the Product Team will never know that truth
to that, or what they based their decision on...again assuming that
they are both the exact same and just labeling differences

It is what it is and all the modifications will still have what that
label says it is...unless one pays for it to be recertified to whatever
they 'thing' it should be...but then that would cost more than just
going out and buying the higher rated one...

[8iron]

BenK wrote:
In anything ENGINEERING...EVERYTHING RATED Is based on a BELL CURVE vs what most folks 'think' are black or white

Meaning that whichever POINT they choose for the RATING....that is where the corporation will stand behind (warranty and/ liability)

There usually are a bit more....but that is their design margin, safety factor, fudge factor, ETC

Advisors who say good for it, ignore the limits, etc are into that margin....but lost is the warranty...that then has those advisors say put it back to stock and don't tell (fraud in my book)...

All well and fine, but I think the ongoing argument regarding late model F250/F350 differences is are they actually engineering differences or merely labelling differences to meet sub 10,000# GVRW licencing and registration standards?

[BenK]

In anything ENGINEERING...EVERYTHING RATED Is based on a BELL CURVE vs what most folks 'think' are black or white

Meaning that whichever POINT they choose for the RATING....that is where the corporation will stand behind (warranty and/ liability)

There usually are a bit more....but that is their design margin, safety factor, fudge factor, ETC

Advisors who say good for it, ignore the limits, etc are into that margin....but lost is the warranty...that then has those advisors say put it back to stock and don't tell (fraud in my book)...

[Campinfan]

A friend of mine is an engineer in the auto business. His buddy is an engineer on the Ford Superduty line. He said the ratings the mfg gives are what the average person would feel comfortable towing with the truck. So I do no know if you can call it a fudge factor but be reasonable when you tow.

Some of those who say you can only tow 80% must have forgotten where that rule of thumb came from. It was that 80% was your rig and the cargo in your tow vehicle would account for the other 20%. Now I know that I do not have 2400lbs of cargo in my truck.

And if you look at some of the specs for a F250 vs a F 350, the F250 actually has a higher cargo limit. Now, of course, you can buy a larger cargo package...

[BenK]

First, decide if you believe in the OEM's ratings or not

If not, then discussions of changes academic...but note that any changes
to the OEM specifications will most likely take the OEM off the liability
hook...

If yes, then understand how their ratings 'system' works

All documentation for any given vehicle is a contract between the OEM
and buyer. Baked into that is the warranty and liability

In that 'baked in' warranty and liability is the COMPONENTRY the OEM
provided from the factory.

By changing a class and/or size of any component, the owner is RE-ENGINEERING
that component and sub-system to whole system

Mainly going lesser, but also going higher in spec. The warranty and
liability coverage is for the OEM spec components and does NOT
include the re-engineered componentry

Yes, when you go larger or higher spec, 'that' component is rated
higher and 'can' do more...but, bottom line is that the OEM docs
(that includes the door label) is still or only for the OEM equipment...

I knew that all of my modifications to my 1973 K5 Blazer (1 ton
suspension...Dana 60 front end & positive arched leaf springs, 14 bolt
rear & higher rate leaf pack and commercial class tires, 14 ply) would still
have GM warrantee it as a 'half ton'...

So if one does NOT like what the door label says...then buy one with
the door label that you do like...and if you don't care for any warranty
coverage and/or willing to take the liability, have at it...just know
what that re-engineering begets you...

[Dave_H_M]

MrVan. I just cannot seem to get ll the worms back in that can of worms you opened. :W

[bguy]

Litigation.
Some people are more afraid of liability than others.

[JIMNLIN]

8iron wrote:
Those that have looked, asked and researched know the answer. Those that haven't offer their opinions here.

Yeah its pretty easy to search lets say Fords Fleet service spec pages that lists all the specs for rear axle sizes/spring capacities/brake specs/frames/wheel and tire sizes and a host of other tech data that shows the differences in the F series trucks.
Those that have done their research know what the vehicle mfg tech data says and those that don't simply have a opinion and make ignorant comments about those that have done their research.

Case in point is a F350 SRW crew cab 4x4 6.7 172" wheelbase 6290 RAWR comes with a 10k or a 11.2K GVWR. This is the same truck from front to rear bumper.
The 10k GVWR SRW has a 2550 lb payload.

The same truck in the F250 has a 10k gvwr a 2450 lb payload.

Now look at all the spec that Ford engineers has given us for the 10k gvwr F350 SRW and the 10k F250 are the same with exception of rear spring ratings.
Same with the 11.2k gvwr F350 SRW configured like my example above.

Registered weights has nothing to do with the OP topic of 3/4 ton vs one ton SRW actual mechanical differences. Thats another topic.

[mowermech]

I have owned two mid-'70s Dodge Club Cab W150 trucks in my life.
Both had W250 running gear installed; springs, axles, transfer cases, transmissions, wheels, and E rated tires. The first one I converted myself, the second one was built when I bought it. The conversions were purely "bolt-in" swaps! Nothing needed to be modified in any way.
Did the door sticker on those trucks have ANY validity at all?
How about one of the more common conversions these days; the military 6X6 that has been shortened (box and frame), had one axle removed, and effectively made into a HUGE 4X4 pickup! Are the manufacturers load ratings still the same?
How about if you get a truck that came from the factory with 4.1 diff gears, but you want more speed and better fuel economy, so you have it re-geared with 3.54 rings and pinions. Which ratings should you comply with, the original ratings for the 4.1 ratio, or the ratings for the 3.54 ratio?
What about a "custom hauler", say, a 1959 Chevy Low Cab Forward, that has a modern Cummins 5.9 24 valve HO with an Allison 6 speed tranny installed, with modern air suspension? A '59 Chevy truck HAS NO door jamb sticker! What is the load/towing rating?
In fact, there ARE shops that can modify a truck and replace the data tags with a new one reflecting the modifications. YES, it IS legal!
IMO, the argument is a non-issue! My truck is "legal" up to whatever weight I pay for.

[MrVan]

8iron wrote:
Those that have looked, asked and researched know the answer. Those that haven't offer their opinions here.

I sure would appreciate seeing the research data.

[jerem0621]

The tow ratings...IMHO... Are subjective...the video of the Toyota engineer admitting that the tow rating was really for the inexperienced weekend warrior....not the person who knows how to properly load a trailer and tow a load...was very interesting to say the least.

WE the consumer demand a rating for a vehicle... Those manufacturers have ZERO control what kind of trailer you hitch to your truck..the have to issue a tow rating with the joe never towed in mind.

My 4 cyl Kia Sorento has a 1650 lb tow rating. That's understandable as these things are not normally used to tow. There is no provision for a factory external transmission cooler. However, I have pulled fairly heavy with my Kia (2200 ish lbs) and the car didn't blink. No overheating, no bad handling, nothing but a relaxing drive home. I firmly believe that this car, with a transmission cooler, is capable of 3500 lbs easily! Then again, I understand that I am towing and not racing to the top of a hill, so non towing performance is not expected from me.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

[8iron]

Those that have looked, asked and researched know the answer. Those that haven't offer their opinions here.