3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Sonic1954]

mkmathis wrote:
Well, as I posted before, my Power wise 3500 had a bearing freeze and my fuel gauge was broke. Since then I have exchanged it for another one. Unfortunately my gas gauge was broken again straight from the box. And I called a buddy who also bought one and he told me that his gauge was broken as well. So this is a small and annoying problem but worth dealing with for the price and amount of noise level.

This weekend I took it to Sand Mtn and ran it all weekend and it did great. Everyone that I camped with was very impressed and I am sure that they will be looking for one soon.

If this is a Honda clone engine, and it probably is, go to a Honda dealer and get a gas cap with a built in fuel guage.

More on Honda clones when I finish reading all 57 pages of this thread.

[mavapa]

Creole, let us know how the purchase goes. I am considering it, too.

[Le_gosse_Creole]

I am going to buy a ELM3000. But from the manufaturer at this web site click here They wrote back to me after writing them saying I couldn't find one. :C

[Jack_Shidemantl]

Yes I read about grounding on page 41 of these posts. I think I understand the floating ground issue. However a normal 120 V outlet has the neutral side connected to the same ground as the ground pin. we don't have that with these generators.
Of course when you switch to 240 V operation then you would not want that condition as both legs then need to float. So I'm just interested in knowing if both sides of the 120 floating above ground is ok? Doesn't sit right with me. Of course in 120 V mode I could always make an adapter to ground the neutral side. If you don't purposely ground the frame to a good earth ground is it better to let both legs of the 120 V float or what?

[Dubman]

Jack Shidemantle wrote:
It said I have an open ground. Obviously one side of the generator output is not grounded.

On Page 41 , Prof95 discusses proper grounding. This posting is huge, and hard to find info, but believe this will help you..

[Jack_Shidemantl]

I changed out the 120 V receptacle in my ELIM3000 the other day to use a more rugged unit as many here have done. I noticed when doing that the ground wire is connected to the frame of the generator. When I completed the swap out I started the generator and plugged in my line tester (you know the $3 units with 3 neon bulbs). It said I have an open ground. Obviously one side of the generator output is not grounded. Is it supposed to be like that? How would a GFCI breaker work in this situation? Are all generators wired like this?

[MrWizard]

CarNut wrote:

I think getting 110V out of the Power Pro 220 plug you only get half the available current. I opened my Power Pro up last night to see about re-wiring for the full amperage (connecting fields in parallel vs. series.) I was surprised how small the wires inside were, esp when the manual specifies wire size vs. length for cords

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insulation 'enameling lacquer ' not rubber will stand a lot more heat,

also be sure you are looking at the output 'sator' winding connections going to the 220 plug

the 'feild' windings will be comming from the voltage regulator control board and carry less current and lower voltage typically 5-8 amps at 24-28 volts

also these connecting lengths are measured in 'inches' not 'feet' so there is next to ZEZRO voltage drop even under high current loads, that would not be possible if using the same gauge in the walls or as extension cords

[dlefarris]

Dave, thanks for the info. I was considering removing the generator from its cage and mounting it in the compartment along with the control panel.

DaveVa78Chieftain wrote:
Dlefarris,
I used a purolator PRO-42SV (2-3.5 psi) cubed electric fuel pump. I was also concerned about the carb flooding out but I have not experienced any problems. This pump seems to be a noisey one though (clack-clack) and is more annoying than the generator itself. I puchased the springs from Tractor Supply Company (TSC). TSC has a large assortment of springs. They are roughly 2 1/2" long by 1 1/4" in diamter. The generators weigh around 100lbs so you do need some fairly heavy gauge springs. I attached them using fender washers and bolts. These generators are all approximately 22" long, 17" wide, and 18" tall. You also need space for the fan (about 6"). There has to be enough free area in front of the fan for it to work properly. I have a 30" long x 24" x 24" compartment so space was no problem for me. I did not remove the muffler from the generator. The exhaust port in the head may also be threaded (pipe thread) so you could use black pipe for exhaust pipe. Not uncommon for small engines to have both threaded and bolt on capabilities. If the head has pipe threads, you can easily adapt just about any automotive muffler. I just did not want to disturb mine and risk damaging the gasket. The fan is mounted on the engine end. With all sides enclosed with flashing (attached to generator frame), air flow is directly through and over all components. I cut up an auto inner tube to make a access door for operating the choke and pull starter rope handle. I attached a pull sting to the choke so I can turn it off without having to stick my hand back in there after the engine is started. I can check the oil from the front however, my generator compartment has a small access door and requires dropping the unit to do anything else. Even an RV generator would not be easy to do much else to on my rig. I need to open it back up a bit and put some insulation under the generator to see if that will reduce radiated noise I think is being transmitted via the original compartment base plate. Noise level inside the rig is very low. With AC on, you do not even hear the generator.

Dave

[DaveVa78Chiefta]

Dlefarris,
I used a purolator PRO-42SV (2-3.5 psi) cubed electric fuel pump. I was also concerned about the carb flooding out but I have not experienced any problems. This pump seems to be a noisey one though (clack-clack) and is more annoying than the generator itself. I puchased the springs from Tractor Supply Company (TSC). TSC has a large assortment of springs. They are roughly 2 1/2" long by 1 1/4" in diamter. The generators weigh around 100lbs so you do need some fairly heavy gauge springs. I attached them using fender washers and bolts. These generators are all approximately 22" long, 17" wide, and 18" tall. You also need space for the fan (about 6"). There has to be enough free area in front of the fan for it to work properly. I have a 30" long x 24" x 24" compartment so space was no problem for me. I did not remove the muffler from the generator. The exhaust port in the head may also be threaded (pipe thread) so you could use black pipe for exhaust pipe. Not uncommon for small engines to have both threaded and bolt on capabilities. If the head has pipe threads, you can easily adapt just about any automotive muffler. I just did not want to disturb mine and risk damaging the gasket. The fan is mounted on the engine end. With all sides enclosed with flashing (attached to generator frame), air flow is directly through and over all components. I cut up an auto inner tube to make a access door for operating the choke and pull starter rope handle. I attached a pull sting to the choke so I can turn it off without having to stick my hand back in there after the engine is started. I can check the oil from the front however, my generator compartment has a small access door and requires dropping the unit to do anything else. Even an RV generator would not be easy to do much else to on my rig. I need to open it back up a bit and put some insulation under the generator to see if that will reduce radiated noise I think is being transmitted via the original compartment base plate. Noise level inside the rig is very low. With AC on, you do not even hear the generator.

Dave

[Capt-Ron]

MrWizard wrote:
capt ron

yeah it sounds like somebody didn't think that one out real well.
A/C and microwave are bound to be used at the same time,
like making a quick supper in the middle of the summer, instead of heating up the trailer with the stove
also water heater & washer well dudh.. you know those are going to be used at the same time,,,
sounds like a little re-arranging is in order..

It's amazing that I don't trip more breakers than I do, kinda hard to fulltime on 30amps. I use a couple of ceramic heaters during the winter and have to be carefull which receptacles they are plugged into. Now that I think about it, why would I trip a breaker when a heater is running on the right side receptacles and the microwave is turned on? Have the same problem on the other side with the coffee pot. The microwave is on it's own breaker and shouldn't trip the other breakers. Rarely do I trip the 30amp breaker on the pole, just the ones inside.

As far as the water heater, I don't use the electric for 2 reasons. First, it doesn't get hot enough to suit me and second, it draws a good portion of the 30amps that I live on.
The washer/dryer get used about 3 times a week, mostly at night and there's no problem running the A/C at the same time. And she does run all three at the same time.

So back to the subject at hand, Chinese 3000w generators, I just got the tax bill on my truck this morning so that puts my generator purchase on hold for a couple of weeks. But, I have spread the word to my friends here in the campground that have expressed interest in the past when I bought my Hondas. Most are turned off at the Honda price and 2 are planning to travel this summer wishing that they had generators. They are definately looking into going this route.

Thanks to all for a great thread, it's been very educational.

Oh, Toprudder, no problem since I just threw my idea out there to see if it had any flaws. Thanks for your input, it was "slipped" right in there.

Capt Ron

[catalina30]

CarNut wrote:
I think getting 110V out of the Power Pro 220 plug you only get half the available current. I opened my Power Pro up last night to see about re-wiring for the full amperage (connecting fields in parallel vs. series.) I was surprised how small the wires inside were, esp when the manual specifies wire size vs. length for cords. MrWizard wrote how to re-wire a few pages back (p.48). Red and white wires are spliced just out of gen head, so the white wire will need to be extended or spliced to the blue wire. I don't have a lot of confidence that one of these wires can handle full current output. I will have do some more investigating. Anyone have good reference for gauge vs. current?
Thanks for all the good info on this thread!

If you are asking about the magnet wire the gen head is wired with, I have no answers other than wire dia. is what gives the amp output for the head, not how much load the wire will handle. Part of what the rating for wire is determined by is the insulation that goes around the conductor. The insulation is the weak link so to speak,and that is where the rating comes from as far as amp capacity. The copper will handle much higher loads than the spec states, just the insulation will melt or burn at the temps created. because the insulation is so thin on mag wire it will disapate heat more easily therefore will handle more amperage. Now if the wires are exposed so you can reconfigure them, when you reconfigure them the wires will be run in parallel and will handle your load. Hope that someone can follow me on this one, it made sence to me, but...

Kevin

[toprudder]

Capt-Ron wrote:
Yes that's true... but, I said from the beginning that you would only be able to use the rated output of the generator. You're trying to make it sound like I want to try and get 50amps from the generator by using the 220v receptacle with the 50amp plug from the RV. We all know that it can't be done.

Sorry if it sounded like that is what I said. The limiting factor will be the circuit breaker on the generator. In order to get the rated power from one of the two 120v legs, out of a 3000w generator, the breaker would need to be rated for 3000/120 or 25 amps. IF that is the rating for the circuit breaker, then what you want to do may work. I don't have one of the generators in question so I can't check.

In looking back in the thread, it seems that some of these Chinese gensets do have 25 amp breakers on the 240v plug, so it may work. I agree with you that I would rather use a twistlock plug rated for the higher current, I'm just saying that there is another (possible) limiting factor to consider.

I still have reservations about trying to pull the rated power from half of the generator windings, regardless of whether you use the 240v twistlock plug OR the 120v plug. The internal resistance of the windings would cause twice as much heat to be generated when doing that, and that heat is all generated in half the windings. You would also have more voltage drop as a result.

I like the idea of rewiring the windings so the 120v legs become parallel instead of series.

[MrWizard]

capt ron

yeah it sounds like somebody didn't think that one out real well.

A/C and microwave are bound to be used at the same time,

like making a quick supper in the middle of the summer, instead of heating up the trailer with the stove

also water heater & washer well dudh.. you know those are going to be used at the same time,,,

sounds like a little re-arranging is in order..

[Capt-Ron]

toprudder wrote:
If you have a 240v outlet (two 120v legs) then you will have a double breaker, lets say it is 20 amps. If you try to get more than 20 amps out of either leg (even if the other leg is 0 amps) the breaker should trip.

It is this way in your house. If you have a 150 amp main breaker, then you have two 120v legs, each with a limit of 150 amps. If you exceed 150 amps on EITHER leg, the breaker will trip and you lose all power.

Yes that's true... but, I said from the beginning that you would only be able to use the rated output of the generator. You're trying to make it sound like I want to try and get 50amps from the generator by using the 220v receptacle with the 50amp plug from the RV. We all know that it can't be done.
My real purpose for suggesting this setup is to get away from using the 20amp receptacle and 20/30amp dogbone to supply 26amps.
Last night I pulled the cover on my breaker panel and found that the A/C, microwave, appliances, and lights are on one leg. The waterheater, dryer, and washer are on the other which means that the 3000w generator is going to have a real tough time running a split system. Funny that the things that I use the least are grouped together, I may rewire to even out the load. I also see that the breakers total 115amps with 65amps on one leg and 45amps on the
other.
In the photo I identified the circuits by the color of the wires feeding them.
My breaker panel.

Capt Ron

[LittleBill]

you guyz running fuel pumps? won't that overflood the carb by pushing down on the valve seat, or is a gravity feed actually like 1-4 psi anyway so it would be the same, i allways wanted to do that but feared it would flood the carb