3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

Professor 95: I have a question about RV charging. When hooked up to external power or to the internal generator of my Vogue Class A, I get 13 to 14 volts through my converter (at the battery) depending on battery charge (8D). When hooked up to my Champion 3500 generator (early model) I never get more than 12.3 volts no matter what the battery charge. Needless to say, this is killing my battery. Is this a sine wave problem (dirty or square) or could it be related to the outlet plug issue discussed here so well? By the way, I've enquired at my local Kragen's and they are to receive the new Champion generators with the 30 amp RV plug shortly. Thanks

That is a good question, and one that requires a little more information to diagnose.

Since the converter output drops when connected to the Champion 3500, I would immediately suspect that you have an older model linear converter. These converters will show a reduced output voltage based on a lowered input voltage.

But, if you happen to have a newer "switching" converter that is fully regulated, an input voltage anywhere between 90 and 140 should produce the same DC output.

As far as "dirty" sine waves making the voltage drop at the converter, is is possible but not likely. Switching converters normally rectify the incoming AC immediately before applying any voltage to the primary switching stage. Therefore, they could care less what the line frequency is. An example of switching type converters are those commonly found in desktop computers. This same technology is now widly used in RV converters.

I would like to know more about your converter. Make, model, amperage, etc. If you have any literature on it, maybe you could scan it (unless the literature already is online, as many are). I strongly suspect we will find the answer in the converter design.

One other question though...... how (with what) are you measuring the battery voltage?

[larryslocum]

Professor 95: I have a question about RV charging. When hooked up to external power or to the internal generator of my Vogue Class A, I get 13 to 14 volts through my converter (at the battery) depending on battery charge (8D). When hooked up to my Champion 3500 generator (early model) I never get more than 12.3 volts no matter what the battery charge. Needless to say, this is killing my battery. Is this a sine wave problem (dirty or square) or could it be related to the outlet plug issue discussed here so well? By the way, I've enquired at my local Kragen's and they are to receive the new Champion generators with the 30 amp RV plug shortly. Thanks

[boucher1]

Dubman

You may find these two Quebec sites insteresting, they are in French (ils sont en français).

http://www.campingquebec.com/phpBB2/

http://www.campingquebec.com/phpBB2/

Roger

[boucher1]

Thanks to both of you.:)

In French:
TT= Caravane or Roulotte (Caravan is also used un the UK instead of trailer)
TV=Véhicule de Remorquage or Véhicule Tracteur

À la prochaine.
:W

[professor95]

Oh yes, I'am normaly quite quick but the exact definition of TT or TV, you got
me. ???????????????? Living in a French society, one does not always get to know the new terms or abreviations in english.

Thanks

Please accept my apologies....

TT is the Travel Trailer

TV is the Tow Vehicle

EDIT ADDED:
Oh..... I see now Dubman gave it to you in French as well before I posted this. Sorry for the duplicate answer!

[Dubman]

boucher1 wrote:
Professor95

Thanks for the info.

Oh yes, I'am normaly quite quick but the exact definition of TT or TV, you got
me. ???????????????? Living in a French society, one does not always get to know the new terms or abreviations in english.

Thanks

TV=véhicule de remorquage TT=bas de page de voyage :B

[boucher1]

Professor95

Thanks for the info.

Oh yes, I'am normaly quite quick but the exact definition of TT or TV, you got
me. ???????????????? Living in a French society, one does not always get to know the new terms or abreviations in english.

Thanks

[professor95]

Professor95
Can one use the 12vdc on a genset to charge the trailer batteries? How?
In other words, without going through the 120vac.
Can one go directly to the batteries? Can one go through the 12vdc electrical trailer connector. Are their any disadvantages? ie: damage the batteries or the converter etc.

Thanks

You can use the 12 volt DC output to charge the trailer batteries. Just run a #10 or larger set of cables from the 12 volt output to some alligator clips connected directly to the battery. A set of cheap jumper cables with one end cut off and attached to the connector on the generator would work fine for this. No damage should come to the TT converter by directly charging the batteries from an external source. I guess you could go through the TT to TV connector to charge the battery, but this would require making up an adapter/connector like the one mounted on your TV. Certainly more trouble than removing the lid on the battery box to access the battery terminals.

That said, I will tell you that I personally would only do this in an emergency situation. The 12 volt DC output from the generator is not regulated. The charging voltage can swing considerably, possibly rising well above the maximum charging voltage you should apply to your TT batteries. There is also no way to control the charging current. I would imagine that you could add an "old" style external automotive voltage regulator in this circuit between the DC out on the generator and the battery, but fail to see the point in going that far.

When I take my generator camping and know that I will need to refresh my 12 volt batteries in the field, I also carry a good quality 12 volt battery charger with me. I connect this to the batteries and plug it into the generator 120 outlet. I do not use the onboard converter in the TT to recharge the batteries with the generator since it typically has a lower charging rate than my auxiliary charger.

This may be more than you wanted to know....... sorry about that. But, I hope somewhere in here you will find an answer that works.

[boucher1]

Professor95
Can one use the 12vdc on a genset to charge the trailer batteries? How?
In other words, without going through the 120vac.
Can one go directly to the batteries? Can one go through the 12vdc electrical trailer connector. Are their any disadvantages? ie: damage the batteries or the converter etc.

Thanks

[FreeFlighter]

Thanks Jim and Prof,

If 10W30 changed frequently will work, I'll stick with that. Just one more different thing I won't have to carry.

Rey

[professor95]

Champion Power products dropped me a note via my e-mail the other day about the new RV ready generators. The following are excerpts from that message:

{after testing} the new rv plug output and it is a wopping 29amps at the plug and just over 20amps at the 110v receptical.

{snip} there may be up grades for the older units to upgrade to the rv pannel!

{snip} Just dont tell everyone to go and exchange their current(Champion)unit. (Champion)is going to try to see if its feasible to make a retro kit for those wishing to mod their current one."

So, if you have an older Champion generator, hang on! Based on what I am being told we should see a retro kit in the near future to change the older models to be compatable with the new RV ready units.

[professor95]

One question, though. The manual says you can use 10w30 for most applications, but the website and a separate sheet of paper show straight weight SAE30 or SAE40 (depending on temps) and mention "non-detergent". Which would be better?

Thanks,

Rey

The gasoline engines on most of these generators are Honda GX200 clones. As such they are OHV engines with an oil pump and sump that distributes oil to moving parts in the valve trane and lower unit. Unfortunately, they do not have an oil filter. Most folks still think of these engines like the old B&S flathead jobs with a splash lubrication system rather than one similar to their automobiles.

My take is to run in the generator engine whatever oil you would run in your TV for the particular time of the year. If you run 10W-30 detergent oil in your TV, run that in your generator. If you believe a straight 30W non-detergent is best for your TV, then pour that into your generator engine.

[professor95]

A question on the Champion, I am getting ready to do the rewire as outlined by camperdave on page 184 and would like one thing explained in easy layman terms.

What am I gaining by doing this? Everything seems to run fine now with the trailer plugged into the generator using a standard adapter into the 20amp receptacle.

Has anyone measured the output before and after the mod?

Reading this post and seeing all the talk of rewiring makes the reader think we should do this automatically. Should we?

Thanks in advance!
Confused

Let's try the following analogy or comparison to try and answer the question:

Most RVers understand how to hook up batteries for more capacity on their campers. Let's say you have two identical group 24, 85 Ah 12 volt batteries available. You can take the two batteries and hook them in series (positive on one to negative on the other) and get 24 volts at.... 85Ah. That's right, the current capacity did not change, only the voltage. But the watt-hours available went from 1,020 (12x85) to 2,040 (24x85). But wait! What can I run in my RV with 24 volts? Nothing, nada, zilch. Every DC appliance in the RV is 12 volts. So, what have I gained? Again, nothing, nada, zilch. Sure, I can split the load across the two batteries by sharing, but that means I am going to need to split the 12 volt wiring in the RV into two or more circuits. Obviously, this is NOT the way to install two batteries in a camper.

On the other hand, we can take two 12 volt batteries rated at 85 Ah each and connect them in parallel ( positive to positive, negative to negative) and they will still have a combined output of 12 volts, but the Ah capacity will double to 170 Ah. Or, better stated, we have doubled our available power while still maintaining one circuit to supply the load.

The bottom line with either method is to increase the power capacity of the battery bank. But, the only one that makes sense in an RV is the one that combines the batteries in a parallel fashion.

Take this analogy and transfer it to a generator. Think of most of these generators as TWO 120 volt, 12 amp units in one case. If I wire them in series, I get 240 volts and the current remains at 12 amps. But, if I wire these two halves in parallel I keep 120 volts but double the current to 24 amps.

On a RV we have no use for 240 volts. But, we want all the current we can muster to power the current hungry devices like the AC and microwave. So....... we want to have a generator that connects the two parts in PARALLEL.

If the two parts are not connected in parallel, You can only get 1/2 as much power from each individual part. Not good for an RV with a standard 30 amp 120 volt power connector.

So, should you rewire a series connected generator automatically? Only if you want maximum power to be available to a single 120 volt outlet. If you can effectively power your RV appliances with one half of the available power, there is no need to do the rewire from series to parallel coils.

I have never tried to explain this on the forum using the above battery analogy. I don't know if it will help to explain the concept or not, but I thought I would give it a shot.

[jwitt]

Hi Rey,
I live in an area that has pretty wide temp swings, so I will go with the 10w-30. Also, due to a far less build up of hydrocarbons, I prefer a synthetic like "Mobil 1", after the initial break in period. I intend to change the oil frequently enough to lessen the level of contaminents.
This is only my opinion and is based only on my experience with synthetic oils over a few decades of use in both small and large engines.
JIM

[FreeFlighter]

jeebs08 wrote:
Hello everyone...I have been watching this forum for quite sometime (quietly). I have just purchased my first travel trailer! I noticed the Champion RV edition--the C46540. My question is this-Do i just plug in my trailer to the "RV" plug in and it will have all power automatically? The only time I will use generator is for trailer.

Thanks!

Yes, this generator has 29.2 amps available at the RV outlet. Just received mine and will get it running tonight.

One question, though. The manual says you can use 10w30 for most applications, but the website and a separate sheet of paper show straight weight SAE30 or SAE40 (depending on temps) and mention "non-detergent". Which would be better?

Thanks,

Rey