3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[rustycopperball]

Happy B day,
Thanks for starting this thread Professor, and a many thanks to all you who contibuted to this thread, I have learned so much, and have done many mods and wound up buying a Champ because of this thread

[SonicLogic]

professor95 wrote:
By the end of March in 2005, the national average for a gallon of gas was $1.93. In our area (Richmond, VA), gas had dipped to $1.39 a gallon in mid-February. But, the spring price run-up had begun and on March 2, 2005, gas stood at $1.69. Everyone was complaining because predictions of yet another $.25 increase by summer were common. It is all ancient history now - likely never to be repeated again.

Another event that quietly occurred on March 2, 2005, was the birth of the 3,000 Watt Chinese Generator Info thread. How could anyone predict that six years later it would still be an active thread? Some 9,277+ postings and over 755,980 views are associated with this thread. Unlike the $1.39 a gallon gas of 2005, the thread has perpetuated.

Many of the guys that were here when I posted the first question are still around. Others have disappeared, leaving us to wonder what their fate may be. Others have disappeared, leaving us to wonder what their fate may be. New contributors and names constantly find the thread, add new information or questions and provide new friendships.

Over the past six years, the thread has taken on a character and life of its own.

Many thanks to Affinity Media for giving us the opportunity to exchange ideas, ask questions and make friends through the use of RV.net, Woodall's, Trailer Life, Camping Life, Motor Home, Camping World and perhaps even other portals.

Many thanks to our Moderators who have patiently monitored the thread and diligently worked to keep it's standards of conduct and content high.

HAPPY SIXTH BIRTHDAY!

Happy Birthday! I'm still here. I was one of the first to see the thread and bought a 3,000 watt PowerMax (Max Tools) for $299.00 shipped to my front door. It's still running strong and so am I. Thanks professor for all your help and thanks to all the wonderful contributors too!

P.S. I lurked on this thread for many months before I joined and posted a reply.

[professor95]

By the end of March in 2005, the national average for a gallon of gas was $1.93. In our area (Richmond, VA), gas had dipped to $1.39 a gallon in mid-February. But, the spring price run-up had begun and on March 2, 2005, gas stood at $1.69. Everyone was complaining because predictions of yet another $.25 increase by summer were common. It is all ancient history now - likely never to be repeated again.

Another event that quietly occurred on March 2, 2005, was the birth of the 3,000 Watt Chinese Generator Info thread. How could anyone predict that six years later it would still be an active thread? Some 9,277+ postings and over 755,980 views are associated with this thread. Unlike the $1.39 a gallon gas of 2005, the thread has perpetuated.

Many of the guys that were here when I posted the first question are still around. Others have disappeared, leaving us to wonder what their fate may be. New contributors and names constantly find the thread, add new information or questions and provide new friendships.

Over the past six years, the thread has taken on a character and life of its own.

Many thanks to Affinity Media for giving us the opportunity to exchange ideas, ask questions and make friends through the use of RV.net, Woodall's, Trailer Life, Camping Life, Motor Home, Camping World and perhaps even other portals.

Many thanks to our Moderators who have patiently monitored the thread and diligently worked to keep it's standards of conduct and content high.

HAPPY SIXTH BIRTHDAY!

[Salvo]

That's correct. The charged cap can pit the points as the points close. It all depends on the size of the cap and how much energy it can hold. The condenser is sized so that it's large enough to prevent a spark as the points open, but small enough to prevent point damage when points close.

In the design I described, I added a resistor and diode across the despiking cap. After the relay contacts open, the cap gets discharged through the added diode and resistor. The cap will be discharged whenever the relay closes again.

BTW, there are different types of capacitors, some having extremely low failure rates. The military also uses a stringent component derating criteria. In the case of capacitors, actual current and voltage seen in the circuit is well below max component ratings. Not like in commercial usage.

Sal

N9WOS wrote:

And a snubbing capacitor is far from ideal. If it is a low value cap then it will have the same effect as a cap/condenser in an ignition. It will hold off the voltage spike long enough for the points to open (not arc) but the peak voltage spike will potentially damage the insulation on the inductor the contacts are driving. If you use a large capacitor to absorb the energy and prevent the large voltage spike, then your contacts will be subjected to a very large current spike when they engage. The cap is completely discharged. So it is almost like closing on a dead short. It doesn’t do the contacts any good.

[N9WOS]

Err….. points and condenser….. I just put a set in a dump truck about a week ago. Have a couple extra sets for different things in the storage bin around here.

And a snubbing capacitor is far from ideal. If it is a low value cap then it will have the same effect as a cap/condenser in an ignition. It will hold off the voltage spike long enough for the points to open (not arc) but the peak voltage spike will potentially damage the insulation on the inductor the contacts are driving. If you use a large capacitor to absorb the energy and prevent the large voltage spike, then your contacts will be subjected to a very large current spike when they engage. The cap is completely discharged. So it is almost like closing on a dead short. It doesn’t do the contacts any good.


And from real world experience, a diode is far more reliable than a capacitor is under server conditions and with old age. More electronic equipment dies from failing capacitors, than from semiconductor problems. When I have a piece of equipment that is starting to act fritzy the first thing I do a thorough check of….. is the capacitors in the unit. More often than not, changing a couple flaky ones will bring it back to life. I usually switch out all the critical ones anyway.

As a mater of fact, I have a DSL modem right behind me that I have changed a few bad caps on. It had a couple low ESR capacitors in it’s switching power supply that were taking a dirt nap..

[RTompkins3]

Salvo wrote:
Remember points within the distributor? Remember the capacitor?

I haven't seen points and a cap in a long time. We're showing our age :B

[Salvo]

No a clamping diode wouldn't work. The relay contacts will still get damaged.

Remember points within the distributor? Remember the capacitor? It does the exact same thing. If the cap goes bad the points get pitted or even weld together.

Cal

camperpaul wrote:

bill h wrote:

Salvo wrote:
The fix was to add a capacitor between the relay contacts. As the contacts opened, current continues to flow by way of the capacitor.

Out of curiosity, would a clamping diode have worked?

The failure mode on the clamping diode would be the diode shorting, rendering the gun useless.

The snubber capacitor is the way to go when reliability is top priority.

[Dan86300zxt]

Thanks Professor and TeamSlacker.

^^Looks like the PD9160A (60amp,1000watts continous 120v input required)
is what I am going to go with...I'd go with a larger 70 or 80 amp, but two things tell me to be careful...the size load on the generator and the lack of understanding if there are any peaks/surge power requirement for these chargers when in boost mode.(I'm am failing to realize what Professor is trying to tell me about not worrying on the PD design chargers.)

*I did some measuring today and it looks like I am going to be going to Sams Club for 6 GC batteries.(lol, managed to come up with the funds to make life work)

**Yes, Professor...I am very aware of the sensitivity of the specific items for the generator and the need for sufficient airflow/cooling.

I will be engineering the MH compartment to move more air than what the manufacture has designed into the completed original generator and relocating certain items further away from heat.

***I found my MH has a 5/16" fuel injection hose with a shut-off valve coming from the original gas tank.(looks like its located at about the 1/4 fuel level height.)
-I am spinning the idea of putting a cheap low pressure pump inline with this to a custom smaller stainless steel tank that has a liquid level switch to control the pump...leaving the custom tank as a gravity feed to the carb on the generator and venting the tank to a charcoal canister I have.
-The charcoal canister can be "T'd" into the Valve cover vent for the generator to suck the fumes through the air cleaner and into the engine for combustion.
^^^Hmmm...this way I am merely looking at the mounting of the engine and generator with the electrical slightly relocated...no large goofy sized plastic fuel tank to deal with or any of the plastics period. I am also looking at the cooling fan that can be removed from this engine...it seems to me, in principle, that the original engine fan is going to mess with my airflow design for the cabinet. I am planning to funnel two 4 amp/900cfm fans worth of airflow through this cabinet(a suck blow total of 8 amps/1800cfm).
Dan

[TeamSlacker]

Did some more testing tonight Dan.
-The AC outlet appears to be a standard style duplex (both outlets in paral)
-I loaded down the AllPower with a ceramic heater, couple halogen lamps, and another 100w light. Measured voltage/hz/wt via KillAWatt
-With a 400-500w load it actually sounds like it's running lower rpm's than with no load.
-around 1600w didn't seem to be a problem, altho I didn't leave it run very long at that, it is 20deg or so here yet.
-I turned everything on, at about 1800w my KillAWatt started flashing, but gen kept producing AC and no overload led.
(on a side note, the ceramic heater didn't act like a instant 1500w resistive load I thought it would, it would start at lower wattage like 900 then kept increasing)
So with everything I had plugged in, turned on, I watched the wattage increase with the heater on. At around 1900w the Red over load led would light, and right around 2kw it would shut down the output. After about 5 seconds, it reset itself and everything would power back up.

Noise level def louder than the little ETQ800. Most of the noise from the AP is from the plastic case and gets really bad at certian RPM's. Seems the worst area is right around the gas tank neck, the case might be hitting here so I may open up that hole a bit. Otherwise the noise seems to be coming from the seam of the 2 case sides.

[professor95]

Dan86300zxt wrote:

***My plans are to remove it from the portable plastic housing it came in and hard mount it into my generator compartment on my 1977 Dodge Apache 23ft MH.
****I do not currently have a working clamp to test its output...if you get some time, that information would be very valueable to me, as it is going to determine the size PD charger I am going to order.
-I know the owners manual states a continous ability of 1600 watts, but I have no idea if its split between the two outlets, if it can all be pulled on 1 outlet, or even if the rating is accurate.
^^^I know I plan to this as a dedicated power source for only charging batteries, or when not doing that....to operate a microwave. And, from everything I have read...this is going to work perfect for me, if it can sustain 1600 watts.
Dan

Dan - Some observations that might be of benefit:

Be careful about removing the outer plastic cainet. While I am not overly familiar your particular inverter model and design, those that I have worked with (CPE, Honda, Yamaha, Kipor) are designed ONLY for operation with the cabinet intact. The cabinet is what directs cooling air around the heat sink for the module and alternator and redirects heat from the engine and muffler away. Study your inverter design and air flow pattern before skinning it. Also note some models may depend upon the plastic cabinet for fuel tank support.

If you are using a Progressive Dynamics converter/charger you should have no problems with the inverter running it. The issues of overload all seem to be related to the highly reactive nature of the WFCO models of converter/chargers predominately used by manufacturers wishing to save a few bucks. Other brands may not work as well (still untested) - but the PD's design negates this issue.

The continuous 1600 watts is possible. Refer to some of my recent resistive load testing of the CPE 2000i and Kipor KGE2000i here - scroll until you reach my post of 2/2/2011 @ 7:38 pm. I did another a few days ago using high starting reactive loads (Skill saw and 9" Grinder) here posted on 2/25/2022 at 5:48 pm. (Dates and times are given to help find the correct posting on a page.)

There is a huge difference in the performance of digital alternators depending on the inductance, capacitance and reactance of the device plugged into it. Single digital units rely solely on power stored in capacitors to handle the starting surge of these devices. They do not have the large external inductive field to pull from that a synchronous genny uses.

I have yet to discover a digital (inverter) generator under 2000 watts that did NOT have all power directed to a single 5-15 or 5-20 outlet. So, you should be good there.

If the spilled oil managed to invade any of the enclosed ducting around the engine cylinder or electronic module it would be worthwhile to take the ducting off and be sure all oil inside has been removed. If not, it will serve as a "dust magnet" for air circulating inside the duct work that will quickly build up and reduce the cooling efficiency of the unit.

I hope you get many hours of use from the little unit. It sounds like a winner for your MH compartment. Good luck and success with your project.

[Old___Slow]

byates wrote:

Old & Slow wrote:

professor95 wrote:

Old & Slow wrote:
Now for some serious stuff. Between the two of you ingenious fellow threaders, I need a mobile crane set-up. My gen is in the genhouse on the bench. Got her there several years ago with the help of DW. Now, there she sits. If I could back a mobile crane up to the genhouse, the Champion is just inside the door.

Floyd,

How far or where do you need to move the generator? If you only want to get it off of the bench and onto the floor, there are easier (and less expensive) ways. To move it across a building into the back of a PU can present a different challenge (and cost).

Knowing a little bit about your current health situation, the weight of a crane being placed on a PU might not be something easily overcome - meaning, help would be needed in doing an install.

The need. To lift the gen off the bench and out the door for transport about 300 feet, over grass sod, and into the trunk of DW's Volvo. For a trip of 40 miles to the MH storage shed (MH is set up for long term use) No electricty in the shed, not located close by. Kinda had a wild idea of a squirt boom devise from HF installed on one of their heavy duty wagons with folding outriggers attachhed. I could get some help with the move, perhaps, might be the easy way. But then, here is the deal. I wouldn't be able to go out to the genhouse, turn the key start, and hear the little beauty come to life. Sometimes I just do that for fun.:)

Floyd, why not just purchase an additional generator for the MH? Probably cheaper than the cost of a system to lift and transport and a lot more convenient.

Yes, A new gen for the MH remote shed is the right idea. I just had this wild thought of a small crane. buying a new genset keeps me busy reading all the generator threads. The Champion 2000i is the most interesting. But then here comes Dan with his new 'All Power 2000' and that might be worth a look. If it will serve the need for some power tools on the shed lot and be able to also work for operating the Converter/charger and 1100w mircowave in the MH if needed, great.

[Dan86300zxt]

TeamSlacker wrote:
Just a small update: Put the AP 2k inv back together last night after cleaning up the valdez slick.
My prior ETQ tests were in the open in the back yard, with gen sitting on grass. with a low of 58db. Last night with the ETQ on concrete and snowbanks around the driveway, I saw 63-64db. The AllPower was 67-68db under the same conditions and same side (panel opis of exh) I was still hearing a loud plastic rattle, seems to be coming from fuel filler neck to case junction. I was out in the cold alone so didn't have anyone to stop the rattle while I steped away and read the db meter.
If I have some time this weekend I'll try some more tests, maybe with bigger load, and also check the output with the kill-a-watt and on the o-scope.

**Mine arrived in similiar fashion...oil soaked interior of the box and "almost" emptied of oil. Must be the labels all over the box stating ^This SideUp^ don't mean much to FedEx.
I added oil, and gas...pulled it a dozen or so times and it fired up nicely. It does have a rattle or two to it..mostly the hard wheels(notice this was on the concrete in my garage).
-I am very pleased with the noise level. Very very acceptable to me.
***My plans are to remove it from the portable plastic housing it came in and hard mount it into my generator compartment on my 1977 Dodge Apache 23ft MH.
****I do not currently have a working clamp to test its output...if you get some time, that information would be very valueable to me, as it is going to determine the size PD charger I am going to order.
-I know the owners manual states a continous ability of 1600 watts, but I have no idea if its split between the two outlets, if it can all be pulled on 1 outlet, or even if the rating is accurate.
^^^I know I plan to this as a dedicated power source for only charging batteries, or when not doing that....to operate a microwave. And, from everything I have read...this is going to work perfect for me, if it can sustain 1600 watts.
Dan

[Old___Slow]

jasult wrote:
Professor and other's!!
I now have the answer to my problem on previous page. I had a problem with the champion 3500/4000 stalling under load. It would run fine when no load. Today I put in new spark plug and some carb cleaner and ran ity for an hour or so and the problem was still there when I would run this grinder
After more frustration and running the grinder, I realized that the genny would only stall as I released the trigger on grinder. If I held the trigger down for ever it never quit but every time I released the trigger it would quit. I called the toll free number on top of the Champion and spoke to a great guy named Adam at ext 154. I explained to him what was going on and he instantly told me that the 15 amp grinder was not the problem however when I release the load there is a voltage spike and these champs have a safety device to protect any thing plugged in if there is a spike and shuts down genny. He said that big electric motors can cause this spike. Adam from tech told me to unhook the black wire quick connect coming from the shut off switch and it will not quit any more.Just use choke to kill it. He was right, problem went away. He advised me to only disconnect the black wire when running big electric motors. All other times keep the black wire hooked as to protect any thing from real voltage spikes. I am very pleased with CPE tech support.

I liked the EE's and others jumping on this one all the way to the big guns, great reading.

[camperpaul]

bill h wrote:

Salvo wrote:
The fix was to add a capacitor between the relay contacts. As the contacts opened, current continues to flow by way of the capacitor.

Out of curiosity, would a clamping diode have worked?

The failure mode on the clamping diode would be the diode shorting, rendering the gun useless.

The snubber capacitor is the way to go when reliability is top priority.

[bill_h]

Salvo wrote:

This issue brings back memories of a large caliber machine gun problem I was called on to fix. After the gun was operated in burst mode for a minute or so, it would all of a sudden start shooting at full speed while the trigger had no control of stopping the gun. To make a long story short, the trigger activated a relay which activated a solenoid that initiates the shooting. The solenoid has a large inductance. Once current flows through an inductor, the inductor will do everything in its power to maintain that current even when the relay wants to turn the current off. As the relay contacts start to open, the solenoid generates an extremely large voltage that's large enough to ionize the air gap between the relay contacts. Current will continue to flow until the relay contacts have moved far enough apart. The spark that keeps current flowing heat the contacts. A succession of firing bursts create enough heat to weld the relay contacts together, resulting in an uncontrollable gun. The fix was to add a capacitor between the relay contacts. As the contacts opened, current continues to flow by way of the capacitor.

Out of curiosity, would a clamping diode have worked?