70 amp charger cooking 12v LEDs?

[DiskDoctr]

Will using one of the upgraded 70amp Progressive Dynamics charger/converters fry my new 12v LEDs (unregulated version)?

I've seen talk of leaving the old converter in place, deck mounting the new one close to the battery, etc, but don't these interfere with each other?

Do you turn the original one off?

The new converters are 14.8v, will that hurt the LEDs?

The LEDs I ordered to upgrade out new-to-us camper are superb color and light, same model and seller as our hybrid, but they only come non-regulated.

Is there any wisdom to adding a large inline voltage regulator between the new battery and the distribution panel to protect LEDs, slide motors, etc?

Then run a second heavier set of wires from the PDC to the battery?

That would send 14.8v from the PD to the battery for charging, but the battery to distribution panel leg would only be connected through the existing, single "charging/power" wires THROUGH a new voltage regulator.

It seems to me this is how a good system *should* be designed anyways?

I asked some similar questions in a different section, but didn't get these answers. I should have posted in this section.

I am looking to upgrade our 8955 to PD 9270C

70 Amp RV Converter/Charger
The PD9270C-14.8, 70-amp power converter is designed to provide reliable filtered DC power for batteries that require a higher boost/bulk voltage such as Trojan and others. The PD9270C-14.8 converter also provides safe and rapid recharging of RV batteries. Built-in features such as electronic current limiting, reverse battery protection, high voltage protection, low voltage operation, and over temperature shut down ensure long-term reliability. The built-in Charge Wizard is a microprocessor-controlled system that constantly monitors the battery voltage and ensures a rapid; yet, safe, recharge. The Charge Wizard can select one of three charging voltages and one of four operating modes depending on the condition and use of the battery.

Features:

Built-in Charge Wizard
Reverse Battery Protection
Delivers filtered DC power to all 12 Volt lighting and appliance circuits, providing safe and reliable service
Electronic Current Limiting
Low line Voltage Protection
Variable speed intelligent Cooling Fan
High Voltage Protection
Automatic thermal shutdown
Built-in accessory port for the Converter Status Remote Pendant
2 year limited warranty

Input: 105-130 VAC, 1250 Watts
Output: 13.6 VDC, 70 Amps
Dimensions: 3.6" X 8 X 9
Weight: 5.8 lbs.

[ktmrfs]

westend wrote:
Forum member Dave/Sparky did applied voltage tests with many common LED replacements. He found all would endure at least 15V. I think you're going after a problem that may not exist.
FWIW, my LED SMD panels may see 14.8V on many days in the Winter when the temp compensated solar is pushing higher voltages. I haven't lost a one.

I'm sure many do run well on 15V, the ones I have in the trailer now do. However, some early ones I tried from China with a simple dropping resistor and early style LED's did NOT. it only took a few weeks of camping before they started dying, and in a few cases the LED's got hot enough to unsolder themselves from the ceramic board and fall off.

Having designed many circuits with LED's in them for indicators many years ago, I suspected that would happen and was unfortunetly correct. Design the circuit knowing LED (and general diode) characteristics and they will last a LONG LONG time.

[westend]

Forum member Dave/Sparky did applied voltage tests with many common LED replacements. He found all would endure at least 15V. I think you're going after a problem that may not exist.
FWIW, my LED SMD panels may see 14.8V on many days in the Winter when the temp compensated solar is pushing higher voltages. I haven't lost a one.

[DiskDoctr]

MrWizard wrote:
I used LED strip lighting cut from a 5 meter roll
These are routinely exposed to applied voltage up to 14.8v
Almost 2 years use , the kitchen sink one, is almost always on
I lost one LED, in one strip
All light fixtures have multiple strips

Also good news!

I may just plug in and let it roll 😉

[MrWizard]

I used LED strip lighting cut from a 5 meter roll
These are routinely exposed to applied voltage up to 14.8v
Almost 2 years use , the kitchen sink one, is almost always on
I lost one LED, in one strip
All light fixtures have multiple strips

[BFL13]

It is the old story that AH has A and H to it. It is only worth changing to LEDs when the lamps have some H to them.

I don't know your rig's usage per lamp location. I found in ours that only a couple lamps were worth the bother of changing to 120v CFL or 12v LED.

Depending on a whole bunch of things to do with your situation I know nothing about, I can imagine you could use the lamps you did not switch to LED or CFL to get by for lighting, while your 12v system is at 14.8.

All Your LEDs should be "tuned" for 13.6, as that is the voltage they will be at on shore power/ at home plugged in unless most of the time they are even on is when off grid at 12.x.

You are allowed to have a mix of regular 3amp 12v DC lamps. 1 amp by inverter draw CFLs, and 120v or 12v LEDs in your rig.

Some people turn on all the lights whether they need them or not. Children can be trained about that, but it can be a bad idea to mention this to DW! 🙂

[Sam_Spade]

DiskDoctr wrote:

My electronics buddy with a scope is out of town for a while. I will likely be at least 2 weeks before we can get together. Hoping someone here can help?

Help with what exactly ?

The prevailing opinion so far seems to be that a higher bulk charging voltage won't be a problem......but ALL of the responses are mostly guess work.....since so far nobody seems to have exactly the LEDs and converter that you are asking about.

And consider this: Just because a converter is CAPABLE of 14.8 volts, it may never actually do that. Even if it does, it will be ONLY after the batteries are mostly discharged and the AC power is reconnected and the converter is active again. If you don't run your batteries very flat, there won't be a problem. If you connect the AC with the lights OFF, there won't be a problem. If the LEDs are good to 15 V there won't be a problem.

The odds are overwhelming that there WON'T BE A PROBLEM.
I don't know what more you expect to get out of continuing this discussion.

[DiskDoctr]

BFL13 wrote:
What is the scenario for having the LEDs on when your 12v system is at 14.8 ?????

You're right about *most* of the time, using the genny during the day.

But...I don't want to have a "cannot use lights while the generator is running...or while the camper is plugged in limitation.

If the higher voltage shortens the LED life by half, getting 5yrs vs 10 years is no big deal.

But if it *can* be done to keep the voltage in line, and is reasonable price, I'd like to look at that option.

[BFL13]

I don't understand the concern with lights and 14.8v.

The entire time you are on shore power you will be at 13.6v. The entire time you will be off- grid you will be at 12.x volts. Except for a couple hours every so often when doing battery charging.

Mostly? you will do your battery charging during the daytime, so you don't need to turn on any lights for the couple hours that takes.

What is the scenario for having the LEDs on when your 12v system is at 14.8 ?????

[DiskDoctr]

Can I use this relay to switch the DC lines?

It is AC/AC 80amp rated.

HQ 80A Solid State Relay SSR AC-AC Input 70-280V AC Load 240-480V ?AC A4880

Condition: Brand new
Load Current: 80A
Load Voltage: 240-480V ?AC
Control Voltage: 70-280V AC
Control Current: AC ? 12mA
On-off Time: ?10mS
Dielectric Strength: 2500VAC
Insulation Resistance : 1000M ohm/500VDC
Ambient Temperature.: -30??75?
Working indicators: LED
Size: 58 x 45 x 32mm
Certification: CE
Qty: 1 x Relay

I know that a contact is blind to AC vs DC, but SSRs also have some odd behaviors, so I'm asking 😉

If so, is it enough amps for the DC line to power the CAMPER, not the battery charging? The existing 8955an is 950watts input/55amps output, including batteries.

Thanks.

[DiskDoctr]

ktmrfs wrote:
...Now bump the voltage to 14.8V or more agrivates the problem tremendously. Either they are dim at 12V or have premature life at 14.6V.

That is the other end of the stick. I want to have light down to a low battery, so I'm not keen to just throw in a resistor or diode to lower the delivered voltage to the LEDs, unless there is no other option.

Leaving good light when charger is in boost mode, okay light when in normal mode, and dim when batteries are getting low.

Yep. Cheap LEDs. But I don't want to spend $300 on lights, either :E

[ktmrfs]

I think you've discovered how the inexpensive LED lights work. they use a dropping resistor to the LED BAD BAD BAD BAD design. Why? well, LED's are a constant CURRENT device, not constant voltage. Increase the voltage and you increase the current, which increases the power draw, which increases the temperature which decreases the LED junction drop, which increases current. Get the picture. Now bump the voltage to 14.8V or more agrivates the problem tremendously. Either they are dim at 12V or have premature life at 14.6V.

Good designs use a pulsed constant current design that has RFI suppression. not cheap, but much longer lasting.

[DiskDoctr]

SoundGuy wrote:

DiskDoctr wrote:
1. Is the 8955AN a FILTERED DC? In other words, can it work properly WITHOUT a battery connected, as the upgraded options all claim?

Yes, the WFCO 8955 doesn't need a battery to "buffer, or regulate, or filter" it's output ... in fact, I'm running mine right at this very moment, battery is still in my workshop as I haven't yet gotten around to installing it on the tongue.

That said, your plan seems more complicated than it needs to be. I'd just mount the new converter in the front pass through cargo compartment, wire it to the nearby batteries, run 120 vac to power it, and just turn the WFCO off and leave it off.

...except for the high voltage issue....

Otherwise, that was "Plan A" 😉

[wa8yxm]

I will add one more comment I forgot last post....

SOME LED assembles try to get more light out of a too dim LED, they do this by increasing the current or, if it's a "resistor LED" type assembly (non regulated) cutting the value of the resistor.

HOW bad does this get?

Well, this is an OEM led, not a replacement.. The series resistor was 150 ohms by measurement... By calculation it should have been 450 Ohms (It is,, now)

The replacement LED has lasted many years

[SoundGuy]

DiskDoctr wrote:
1. Is the 8955AN a FILTERED DC? In other words, can it work properly WITHOUT a battery connected, as the upgraded options all claim?

Yes, the WFCO 8955 doesn't need a battery to "buffer, or regulate, or filter" it's output ... in fact, I'm running mine right at this very moment, battery is still in my workshop as I haven't yet gotten around to installing it on the tongue.

That said, your plan seems more complicated than it needs to be. I'd just mount the new converter in the front pass through cargo compartment, wire it to the nearby batteries, run 120 vac to power it, and just turn the WFCO off and leave it off.

[Gdetrailer]

DiskDoctr wrote:
My circuit is pretty simple.



1. Replace SPST On-Off switch in double light (call Side A and Side B) with SPDT On-Off-On switch. Side A is connected to '1' Side B is connected to '2'

2. Connect Side A and Side B through a diode to make it one way circuit that only passes current from B to A.

3. Connect 12v line in to switch pole, bond all negatives together.


Now switch in middle if off.

Switch in position 1 is Side A only (diode prevents power going backwards into Side B)

Switch in position 2 is Side A & B (diode passes power from Side B to also power Side A)

Simple 😉

Was thinking that you were dealing with the age old problem of needing to be able to turn on/off a light from two different locations..

Yeah, using a diode to "direct" the lights could work but, I think I would simply use TWO separate miniature switches in place of the one single switch in that fixture..

Plenty of miniature toggles out there..