Small Generator Shoot-Out Results

[BFL13]

Comparing a 2-stroke non-inverter 950w King with a 4-stroke inverter type 500w Powerhouse ( called PH from now on here)

http://www.powerhouse-products.com/powerhouse_product/500wi/

http://www.kingcanada.com/Products.htm?CD=417&ID=21759

They are similar in price so call that equal.

Each is small enough to fit in the outside storage compartment at the back of our Truck Camper, so they are equal at that. The king is wider and about an inch taller at the handle.

The King weighs more than the PH --40 vs 21 lbs but both are easy to carry even with fuel in them, so not an issue for me, so equal at that.

Obviously they are not the same watts rating so I will just post the running results on that.

Noise was the big issue. The PH was very loud (I am used to my Honda 3000, so am spoiled, but still--- 😞 ) So the question was whether the King would be any worse. King specs say 57dB, PH 65dB loaded.

I can confirm that the King is not as noisy and in fact was not too bad on the ears really. It did "hunt" a bit in revs unloaded but ran smoothly with a good load on it. The PH ran steady. King wins the noise war. Those dB specs must be right.

PH is pure sine wave and the King has more of a typical non-inverter gen waveform for 120v output, so they are not equal for running things that badly need PSW, but most things will be ok. (EDIT--corrected that based on DrewE's post)

I only want a small gen to run a battery charger, and the more amps the better, but noise is a big issue.

The PH 500 ran the Vector/B&D charger and so did the King. Those Vectors do not need PSW. However they will not give full amps with the MSW if the loaded voltage sags--but they keep running at some level of amps.

Kill-A-Watt used to measure output of each gen. The numbers are shown as what they were, no intention to compete- just to compare, since they are different watt size gens.

PH Unloaded voltage- 120.8v King unloaded voltage 122.5v

A. PH with Vector charger at 20 amps (near max load for the 500 PH)

118.4v, 4.36a, 322w, 516VA, 59.9 hz (steady) PF 0.65 DC out-21.0a

B. King with Vector charger at 40 amps (near max for the 800w continuous King.)

99.8v, 7.29a, 543w, 715VA, 59.4hz (varies slightly), PF 0.76 DC out 38a

The King started with full Vector amps of 40.4 but quickly sagged in output voltage and the Vector amps tapered with that, until it settled about as above.

The 2 stroke has a slightly smoky exhaust--lots at first then not much when running, but does not need any oil. The 4 stroke had clean exhaust but needs 15W40 oil.

Both were hard to get started today at 32F. "Starting spray" (ether?) down the spark plug hole helped with the King for that.

[SoundGuy]

landyacht318 wrote:
My first thought is how long the Vector would live being fed low voltage. Is anything getting hotter inside of it?

Considering the OP's B&D Vector charger is rated for a nominal input voltage of +/- 120 vac one would think not long if feeding it under 100 vac, ~ 17% less than specified. 😉

[MrWizard]

The hertz being off a few cycles would likely not affect battery charging or harm the vector

You can use the kaw to monitor hertz or voltage and adjust the king for best output

And I was wondering about the PF 38 amps to 20 amps on the king, low voltage to normal voltage
Not 20 amps on each genset

[landyacht318]

My first thought is how long the Vector would live being fed low voltage. Is anything getting hotter inside of it?

Perhaps another fan.

Such high amperage consumer garage type chargers seeem not to be available anymore, so, While I know you have multiple charging sources....perhaps you do not want to drive them into a grave prematurely.
Your voltage adjustable converters started low and turned up until the generator struggles/ conks out should reveal the limitations.

Not sure about the one Genny's MSW output and the adjustable voltage powermax's compatibility though.

Kind of fun doing side by side comparisons with measurement tools. It would be more fun if the products were purchased with other people's money and failure was of no concern.

[BFL13]

time2roll wrote:
My recommendation stays with Honda 1000 or Yamaha 1000.
As for the shootout... both the PH and King can be shot 😉

So that recommendation includes getting a bigger storage compartment in the Truck Camper, or shooting a dog or two, so there is room enough for the Honda. 🙂

I could get a utility trailer to go behind the Truck Camper, and make that into one of those Power Stations like some folks do. Take the Honda 3000, an inverter/ battery set, topped off with a solar panel---

----------------
"Remember what I said , maybe optimised at 110~115 volts
99v and 38 amps what was the difference in power factor efficiency? "

I should run the King with the 1093 set to 20 amps and compare those numbers. Get to that later on.

Is there any "issue" with the Kill-A-Watt on the non-inverter King for reading voltage? It was clarified that the King is not MSW, but still-- I see its freq is a little unstable on the KaW but it holds its revs under load--ISTR that 3,600 is for 60hz?

--If I play with that governor to hold the voltage up, would that screw up the Hz and would that matter?

[MrWizard]

#1 .. The taller Honda will not fit the storage space

#2 ... He is not powering a PD converter, he is using a Vector battery charger
And it does work with the lower input voltage

#3 ... An extra battery weighs more than either generator, costs more
And produces less useable ampHrs

BFL
Remember what I said , maybe optimised at 110~115 volts
99v and 38 amps what was the difference in power factor efficiency

[time2roll]

My recommendation stays with Honda 1000 or Yamaha 1000.
As for the shootout... both the PH and King can be shot 😉

[j_p_f_]

on the link that shows the king gen if you look above the pull starter on the gas tank you can see a small cut-out in the tank lip.
look there and you will see a phillips head screw, this is an adjusting screw for the governor. when under load if the voltage drops low adjust that screw and you can adjust the voltage some.

[BFL13]

SoundGuy wrote:

BFL13 wrote:
I can get 38 amps with the (used) $100 King and 21 amps with the new $200 louder PH500 ...

And according to your own report at an excessively low voltage of just 99.8 volts, which is well below Progressive Industries own low voltage threshold cutoff of 104 vac and TRC's 102 vac, considered by both companies to be about as low as one should accept in order to avoid potential damage to electrical devices. 😉 Your choice obviously but it's clear there's no comparison between these economy gensets being sold at almost giveaway prices and premium priced units like Honda, Yamaha, etc.

I am not comparing equals just describing how these two performed. I am clearly overloading the King but it still runs. My Honda doesn't do overloads--it pops its breaker or the engine conks out, which is a good thing of course. I don't know how low (high?) the King can go-- yet 🙂

I could run the 35 amper and get 29-30 amps at 105v instead of running the 40 amper at 99 volts. That is still more than the 21 amps with the other. The Vector manual says it will still work on lower voltage, but I have no idea if it has a lower limit. RV converters have specs saying that they will operate down to 105 volts, but they do have lower amps too when fed low voltage. ISTR it is air conditioners that actually die from low voltage?

[SoundGuy]

BFL13 wrote:
I can get 38 amps with the (used) $100 King and 21 amps with the new $200 louder PH500 ...

And according to your own report at an excessively low voltage of just 99.8 volts, which is well below Progressive Industries own low voltage threshold cutoff of 104 vac and TRC's 102 vac, considered by both companies to be about as low as one should accept in order to avoid potential damage to electrical devices. 😉 Your choice obviously but it's clear there's no comparison between these economy gensets being sold at almost giveaway prices and premium priced units like Honda, Yamaha, etc.

[j_p_f_]

you get what you pay for...........
I have had the hf version of this gen for several years and I can confirm that I got what I paid for, and it's just what I wanted.
I don't need a premium quality gen with the premium price to do what I need.
the little hf will run my electric chain saw, my electric pole saw, my weed eater, my house fridge, my freezer, my charger, etc.
I got what I paid for.

[BFL13]

The Honda 1000 is physically too big for "my application" and costs a bunch.

I can get 38 amps with the (used) $100 King and 21 amps with the new $200 louder PH500

The small gen would likely only be needed two or three times in a year. The King has a longer running time so could get two recharges done on a tank instead of one, which means for a few days away and no solar, would not require taking a gas can as well.

The higher amps means a shorter recharge time, so even though not as loud, the noise would not last as long either.

If the gen is only used once in a few days trip, that is like taking an extra battery for extra AH. A three hour run of 21a is 63AH, so instead of the PH you could take an extra 100AH battery and run it down to 40% SOC.

The King can run say four hours at 38 amps on a tank, so that is 152 extra AH. That is like 253AH of extra battery bank run down to 40%

[SoundGuy]

SoundGuy wrote:
You sure are investing a lot of time & effort investigating alternate solutions which only confirm you get what you pay for. 😉

TomG2 wrote:
I suspect that the OP enjoys tinkering and learning new things. I am glad he is willing to share. It might save someone else some time, effort, and money.

Absolutely, often do this myself but likewise as often the exercise only serves to prove what I thought I already knew - you get what you pay for. :W

[TomG2]

SoundGuy wrote:
You sure are investing a lot of time & effort investigating alternate solutions which only confirm you get what you pay for. 😉

I suspect that the OP enjoys tinkering and learning new things. I am glad he is willing to share. It might save someone else some time, effort, and money.

[SoundGuy]

BFL13 wrote:
I only want a small gen to run a battery charger, and the more amps the better, but noise is a big issue.

PH Unloaded voltage- 120.8v King unloaded voltage 122.5v

A. PH with Vector charger at 20 amps (near max load for the 500 PH)

118.4v, 4.36a, 322w, 516VA, 59.9 hz (steady) PF 0.65 DC out-21.0a

B. King with Vector charger at 40 amps (near max for the 800w continuous King.)

99.8v, 7.29a, 543w, 715VA, 59.4hz (varies slightly), PF 0.76 DC out 38a

The King started with full Vector amps of 40.4 but quickly sagged in output voltage and the Vector amps tapered with that, until it settled about as above.

I sure wouldn't be impressed with such severe voltage sag under full load ... repeat this test with an EU1000i and you'd see very little. You sure are investing a lot of time & effort investigating alternate solutions which only confirm you get what you pay for. 😉

[BFL13]

Mine is a "returned/used" one I got at the store for $100--regular new is $180 (Can) = about $137 US-- so I cannot say how "broken-in" it is, or what gas mixture it has still in tank from before-- a few months I gather.

I will get a brand new spark plug and change out the gas based on above good tips 🙂

OK I will call it a non-inverter gen. What's with the huge sagging drop in voltage as it runs the load? It is sort of gradual rather than instant, but sure doesn't take long to get down there. Honda inverter gens don't do that. Just a bit lower voltage instantly which stays at that.

The King did the same thing with the 35 amp Vector as with the 40 amp Vector, except with the 35 amper (usually does 33 amps at 120v) it settled at 29/30 amps at 105ish volts instead of 38 amps at 99/100 volts with the 40 amper.

Side-note on PF-- the very same charger shows 0.65 PF with one gen and 0.76 PF with another. Lower input voltage, higher PF. makes it hard to specify which gen will run with which charger as a general rule when they keep moving the goal-posts. 😞

EDIT- Looking at the specs for that 40 amp Vector, it wants 780ish watts input. Pick a number for PF- 0.75 say, that would be 1046VA. No wonder that King "950w" rated 800w continuous had its voltage pulled right down. It didn't quit though 🙂