The Official unofficial CPE 2000i Generator Thread

[pritch272]

8/1/2010 edit: Thread renamed at the suggestion of the Professor.
Renamed from: Champion Inverter and Remote Gens Promo on CPE's web site)

3/22/2011 edit: Thread renamed ...
Renamed from: Official CPE 2000 Watt Inverter Generator Thread

3/23/2011 edit: Thread renamed at the suggestion of the Professor.
Renamed from: (Un)Official CPE 2000 Watt Inverter Generator Thread

Inverter Available August 2010



Remote Available July 2010

[Old___Slow]

PrivatePilot wrote:


Now that the attention-grabbing burp/wandering throttle issue I had with my first unit has been addressed by Champion, I'm a happy camper. 🙂

Well, this is a public forum, so I ask, along with others: how did Champion (fix?) address the problems you mentioned in previous posts, that were serious enough, return, seemed the ONLY answer??. Does Champion now have something new?
Is it secret?

[tvman44]

What did Champion do about the burp/wandering throttle issue??

Angus_NB wrote:
Thank you guys.
I did check Wikipedia before asking and your explanations of PF are easier to understand. 🙂

I understand that the Champion is a 1600 watt ($500 CDN) generator not a 2000 watt ($1100 CDN) generator. I just wanted to make sure that 1600 watts was going to be enough for my usage. It's difficult to justify an additional $600 for the added 400 watts unless it was necessary. I know they are not a direct product comparison but in reality we have to compare the Champion to what is available on the market. If Honda / Yamaha did have a 1600 watt unit the cost would be in the $1000 range in Canada so the dollar savings would still be substantial.

The way I understand this now is; if I keep the batteries in the 70% - 100% range and not let them get down to the point where the WFCO is going to go to full power charge I should be ok. I can use the standalone charger for times when the batteries get low enough that the WFCO is drawing too much power.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

I have a breaker for the Converter and Water Heater. This will isolate the converter but the water heater will still run on propane with 12v to ignite it.
I never used AC for my water heater and fridge anyway, always propane. We also never use the air conditioner.
The only AC appliance I use while dry camping is a toaster for a few minutes in the morning. All of my lights are 12v.

My goal is to camp for 7 days on two batteries while running the generator about 4 hours a day. If it's a rainy dark day where we are in the trailer with lights on I would let it run all day in Econo mode. At most we have 6 single bulbs at once for any length of time.
Is this a reasonable expectation?
I tried running my 3500 watt noise maker about two hours a day and it wasn't enough.

Mark, I understand that you don't own a Honda but most of us have (barely) heard them running. By your description it seems like the Champion is nearly as quiet or at least quiet enough to not bother the neighbours. 🙂

Again, thanks for the detailed information everyone.

[professor95]

Angus_NB wrote:
We also never use the air conditioner.

You are much further North than I am. This typically translates to cooler air and a lesser need for an A/C.

But, if you never use an A/C, I would think that you probably use the furnace in the RV on chilly nights or perhaps you just have a short season where you dry camp.

The RV furnace is the biggest user of 12 VDC power in your RV. It takes a lot of battery to keep the furnace blower spinning fast enough for the sail switch to keep the furnace running.

Just a thought - I have no idea if you ever use the furnace or not. But, if by chance you do, the discharge of your batteries will be much faster and thus the generator will have to work harder/longer to recharge.

[Angus_NB]

Thanks Mark.
I keep my generator in the box of the truck too. Mainly because it weighs 125 lbs. and also to reduce noise.

Randall, thanks again. About half of our trips are dry camping or NASCAR races which amounts to the same thing.
Now I'm really looking forward to getting the Champion.

vandoc, I've seen this high resistance not starting issue mentioned in the thread earlier. I believe Champion replaced a circuit board to fix the problem.
The majority of owners don't seem to be having problems but with two going bad I don't blame you for returning them.
Hopefully the Champion will be as reliable as my cheap, no-name, Chinese 3500 watt generator. It's starts first pull every time and isn't nearly as noisy as the Coleman generators.

[MrRchitty]

Angus, everything sounds good. I have the same model WFCO as you. My converter was tied in with one set of outlets. I added another circuit breaker and broke the link between converter and that one set of outlets and now converter sits alone. If you need more on this, PM me and I'll explain more.

Pilot,

What was done for you? Or maybe I'll call tech when I return from Outer Banks KOA.
Lot's of Canadians here.

[vandoc]

I've had 2 of these Champion generators with a parallel kit for a month now. This past weekend I had problems with one of the generators starting. There was a great deal of resistance on the pull start, and I couldn't start it as a result. The 2nd generator has the burping issue that's been described here. I wound up returning both generators because of the issues. The units paralleled ran my 13,500 AC unit fine at 6,000 feet elevation. They would not run both the AC and microwave at the same time with eco mode off. I was considering returning the generators because of the burping issues; the last issue with pull start problems was enough to convince me to return them. These were the Red color with a build date of March 2011.

[PrivatePilot]

I camped a few weeks ago next to some tenters who had a Yamaha 2000 - similar AFAIK to the Honda for noise, and I heard their generator farther from their campsite than I could hear my Champ.

I think honestly the champ was a little louder, but placement is key - the champ in my truck bed was quieter than their yamaha sitting out in the open in their campsite.

Last time we were really deep in a heavily wooded campground I put the champ out on my 100 foot extension cord in the woods and it was almost completely inaudible from my site, much less anyone else's.

The whole reason I bought the champ 2000 inverter was so that I wasn't "That Guy" in the campground with a noisy generator, knowing right well I'd be running it at least a few hours per day. Now that the attention-grabbing burp/wandering throttle issue I had with my first unit has been addressed by Champion, I'm a happy camper. 🙂

[Angus_NB]

Thank you guys.
I did check Wikipedia before asking and your explanations of PF are easier to understand. 🙂

I understand that the Champion is a 1600 watt ($500 CDN) generator not a 2000 watt ($1100 CDN) generator. I just wanted to make sure that 1600 watts was going to be enough for my usage. It's difficult to justify an additional $600 for the added 400 watts unless it was necessary. I know they are not a direct product comparison but in reality we have to compare the Champion to what is available on the market. If Honda / Yamaha did have a 1600 watt unit the cost would be in the $1000 range in Canada so the dollar savings would still be substantial.

The way I understand this now is; if I keep the batteries in the 70% - 100% range and not let them get down to the point where the WFCO is going to go to full power charge I should be ok. I can use the standalone charger for times when the batteries get low enough that the WFCO is drawing too much power.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

I have a breaker for the Converter and Water Heater. This will isolate the converter but the water heater will still run on propane with 12v to ignite it.
I never used AC for my water heater and fridge anyway, always propane. We also never use the air conditioner.
The only AC appliance I use while dry camping is a toaster for a few minutes in the morning. All of my lights are 12v.

My goal is to camp for 7 days on two batteries while running the generator about 4 hours a day. If it's a rainy dark day where we are in the trailer with lights on I would let it run all day in Econo mode. At most we have 6 single bulbs at once for any length of time.
Is this a reasonable expectation?
I tried running my 3500 watt noise maker about two hours a day and it wasn't enough.

Mark, I understand that you don't own a Honda but most of us have (barely) heard them running. By your description it seems like the Champion is nearly as quiet or at least quiet enough to not bother the neighbours. 🙂

Again, thanks for the detailed information everyone.

[Old___Slow]

Old & Slow wrote:

PrivatePilot wrote:

bradyk wrote:
Dennis maybe can add to the burping issue on our gennys, Seems pretty common out there that no one has a magic answer for. I didn't notice it so much but the wife pointed out to me last weekend. I wouldn't put it in the deal breaker category but is it something that is going to get worse or maybe an internal component going to fail down the road. Maybe Dennis can read many of those posts and throw us some ideas.

It's nearing the "it's going back to the store" category for me, depending on how it behaves this weekend at a outdoor jamboree we are attending. It'll probably be running about 16 hours a day for 3 days - if at the end it's still burping and wandering it's idle all over the map I think mine will be going back in the box and back to Costco.

I love the little Champ when it's running right, but this burping and wandering throttle issue *IS* a deal breaker for me.

What a difference a day makes. From a minus to a 'possible' plus for Champion.
The CEO Mr. Dennis Trine with (CPE) must have known all along about the problems with the Champion 2000i. With the coming of the fix, just like that. Bingo. What the fix for the leaking and burping is *is* will be one of the most watched for posts, I think in the history of RV.Net.

I continue to be in hunt for a nice priced Inverter Generator that has many and mostly good reports.

P. Pilot,

I notice the fine reviews you are now giving the Champion 2000i. May I ask if the CEO of Champion (CPE) Mr. Dennis Trine or CS has supplied with with a 'FIX' or perhaps a brand new perhaps the latest model of the Champion 2000i' If a fix, was given, please explain. Maybe something can be done for the older units that hunt/burp even at idle. And if the new models have no leaking problem or burping/hunting, that is great news.

[PrivatePilot]

Angus_NB wrote:
Now that I understand this a little better I should be able to maintain the batteries without them getting below 50% charge. I think the Champion will do the job just fine. Canadian Tire has a 40A charger on sale for $99.99.

What is your opinion as far as the noise of the Champion compared to the Honda 2000? It's difficult to tell on YouTube.

That charger will work perfectly in tandem with the Champion - I know because I've used that exact combination. That's a great little charger with a good sustained amperage output (not all chargers are 100% duty cycle, take note), so get it while it's on sale.

I can't directly compare the noise of the Champ vs. Honda as I've never owned a Honda 2000, but I'm fairly satisfied with the noise level of the Champ. I run it in the back of my pickup bed and it's not really audible from the next campsite when it's loaded low for battery charging only.

[MrRchitty]

Angus_NB wrote:
Thanks for the help. I plan to buy either the Champion or a Honda. I only camp a total of about 25 days a year so if I can get away with the Champion and saving $600 I will. After all of this reading I don't know if the Honda would be any better for my situation anyway.

MrRchitty wrote:
... Find a way to turn off or isolate the converter and you can pull off running individual loads as well.

Not sure what this means.
I would like to power the trailer and the charger at the same time.
If I disconnect the converter am I going to loose 12V within the trailer, lights water pump, etc.?
If I just disconnect the batteries is the converter still going to draw too much from the generator?

MrRchitty wrote:
Added note, the power factor on my Shumacher is 0.8.

I don't understand how PF relates to charging and the generator.
Do you mind explaining this a bit, in layman's terms? Use props if you have to. 🙂

Maybe I should start a new thread as I am getting off of the CPE 2000i Generator topic.

Like mentioned, a portable battery charger would aid in keeping the load on the generator down.

Large loads include the microwave, the electric funtion of your fridge (not on propane), the electric element in your water heater if you have one and last, your converter. Each of these items can draw in the neighborhood of 1000 watts, give or take a couple hundred watts. So, two of the big items together and you are going to overload. You can run one of those items as long as it is loaded first and then load small items such as a couple of lights or a tv, for example.

When selecting a small wattage generator, you have to manage your power use.

Power factor is defined as apparent power.
Volts x Amps = VoltAmps
VoltAmps x Power Factor (pf) = Watts

Your resistive loads include things such as lights, heaters, and the like. Power factors on these loads are almost 1. For example 0.97, 0.98, 0.99.

Inductive loads are your motors. Such as your AC unit and with those types of loads comes a high starting current. Power factor on these loads are much less than 1. Inductive loads require a significant surge or "in-rush" current to start.

Don't expect or even try to start your AC unit with the Champion inverter. It's not going to happen.

Since you are looking on the internet, check out "power factor" on Wikipedia. I think it breaks it down to a layman's level, such as myself.

If you isolate the converter from the circuit, then you will basically be operating as if you were not plugged into shore power and your batteries will provide the 12 volts to power your trailer lights, fridge and water heater circuit.

If you disconnect your batteries from the circuit and use the converter to power your lights and the water heater / fridge circuitry directly, well, I don't have an answer for you directly. What I will say, from dealing with automotive sales, people would disconnect the battery on a car to see if the alternator was still putting out power. BAD idea. The battery acts as a big capacitor and absorbs fluctuations in a circuit such as a converter or the car's alternator and would prevent or reduce allowing a power spike from killing your equipment.

A bit off topic, but hope this helps with your expectations of the Champion inverter generator.

As far as the noise level, definitely, at an idle and lower demands, the noise from the generator is very good. Higher demands and it becomes about as noisy as an open synch genset. Nice thing here is that your demands are short lived, including charging your batteries and your back down on your idle, thus reducing your noise level.

Edit: What the professor said. Apparently, we were typing at the same time. 😉

[professor95]

Angus_NB wrote:

I don't understand how PF relates to charging and the generator.
Do you mind explaining this a bit, in layman's terms? Use props if you have to. 🙂

Maybe I should start a new thread as I am getting off of the CPE 2000i Generator topic.

No need for a new thread. IMHO, the topic is important to selecting a generator.

As far as electrical loads go, there are three classes or types (they can be combined): Resistive, which is like an incandescent light bulb, heater, coffee maker, or toaster. Resistive loads absorb all of the power provided and convert it to heat often with byproducts like light. Generators perform well with resistive loads and will generally provide their full rated power. Since all of the power provided by the generator is used in the load the power factor is 1.0.

Alternating current has both a constantly rising and falling polarity-changing voltage and current. With resistive loads that keep voltage and current in phase we can determine power by multiplying the voltage by the amperage.

Inductive loads generally have coils of wire or "switching" circuits as part of their load. Electric motors, the present popular type of RV converter/charger and to some extent microwave ovens do not use all of the supplied power in their load. They actually reflect some of the power back to the source. This causes the voltage and current to no longer be in phase so the actual power is less than the apparent power and the old volts x amps formula doesn't work too well. Since all of the power generated is not used by the load the power factor drops.

Enter a new term - Volt Amps. VA is the value of the apparent power and watts is the real power. The ratio of watts to volt-amps (real power to apparent power) is the "power factor". So, if the wattage of an item is 1000 watts and the volt-amps is 1,400 watts the power factor will be .71 or 71%.

A load with a low power factor draws more current than a load with a high power factor for the same amount of useful power transferred.

Thus, if your generator is rated for 1600 watts but is connected to an appliance with a power factor of .65 the appliance you believe will draw about 1,000 watts actually loads your generator to the equivalent of a 1600 watt resistive load.

Put another way, if the RV converter/charger that the user expects to draw 1,000 watts per the product rating label will load the generator to 1600 watts if the PF is .65.

Power factors can vary depending on the design of the converter/charger. As batteries discharge and need recharging the RV converter charger will supply a higher charge current in the beginning and then taper off on the charge current as the batteries reach full charge. To provide the higher charge current, the 120 VAC current to the converter/charger will also increase - often to the point that it overloads the generator.

Another anomaly is that an "intelligent" converter/charger often begins to recharge batteries at a low current rate even though they are discharged. A generator may purr along OK at the inception of the charge cycle. Then, the converter/charger begins to increase the charge current after 5-10 minutes of the lesser charge rate and reaches a point where the input current exceeds the power the generator can supply and the generator goes into overload and shuts down.

Since the Honda 2000i actually has the capacity to produce 2,000 watts and sustain it for up to 20 minutes while the CPE2000i can only provide 2,000 watts for a fraction of a second (400 ms) and limits power output to 1600 watts via the 13.3 amp circuit breaker, it may not power a converter/charger with a low PF and high input wattage. Testing has shown that a 55 amp WFCO converter/Charger is about the max a CPE2000i will handle with discharged batteries - and that is with no other 12VDC loads like lighting, pumps, refrigerator control boards or furnace/fans or additional 120 VAC loads.

Generally a small portable charger like your 15 amp unit will not put a load on the generator that is as high as your RV/converter charger. But, a smaller charger will take longer to top off your batteries so your generator run time is increased.

Also keep in mind that if you want a sustainable 12 volt charge where the converter/charger and battery capacity are balanced increasing the use of 12 volt appliances also increases the input power needed by the converter/charger and thus adds additional load on the generator.

The bottom line is you can buy a generator that you "think" is equal to another brand only to later learn the limitations. Don't be fooled by the numbers on the outside of the box when buying a generator. Do your research, compare real-time specifications and ratings and then look in your billfold to see what you can afford.

This is why I have said in numerous postings the CPE2000i is NOT a Honda and should no be compared to a Honda 2000i. It it what it is - an inexpensive, lesser powered inverter generator that will provide 1600 watts to a resistive load.

So, did that answer your question or confuse you even more? :h

[Angus_NB]

Thanks Mark. I never realized how long and how much power it took to fully recharge a battery.
I watched a video on YouTube showing how to change the mainboard in the WFCO 8955. After seeing the size of the components I understand why my batteries never get fully charged. 🙂

Now that I understand this a little better I should be able to maintain the batteries without them getting below 50% charge. I think the Champion will do the job just fine. Canadian Tire has a 40A charger on sale for $99.99.

What is your opinion as far as the noise of the Champion compared to the Honda 2000? It's difficult to tell on YouTube.

[PrivatePilot]

Angus_NB wrote:
Could I use a standard battery charger connected to the Champion in cases where the batteries have discharged more than the WFCO can handle?

This is almost the ONLY way I do it!

My converter is one of the lousy/cheap <10Amp charge circuit models. Instead, I purchased a good high quality bulk/absorption/float battery charger and keep it in the storage compartment in the front of my 5er where the batteries are.

When I need to recharge, I plug solely the charger into the Champ, and away it goes. My aftermarket charger runs up to 25 amps (a lot more than my converter output) and draws so few amps that it only runs up the idle (in eco mode) to perhaps 30/40%, meaning it stays quiet.

This setup works perfectly and I've recommended it to many others - zero chance of phantom or unexpected loads overloading the generator this way, and personally, it charges 2.5 times faster this way versus my factory converter.

Just take note that depending on your battery depletion level, and the size of your batteries, your 15 amp charger might take a LONG time. Even at 25 Amps, when I ran down my 2 golf cart batteries one night at a jamboree 2 weekends ago (running 3 fans all night) it took about 8-10 hours of generator runtime to recharge.

[Angus_NB]

Thanks for the help. I plan to buy either the Champion or a Honda. I only camp a total of about 25 days a year so if I can get away with the Champion and saving $600 I will. After all of this reading I don't know if the Honda would be any better for my situation anyway.

MrRchitty wrote:
... Find a way to turn off or isolate the converter and you can pull off running individual loads as well.

Not sure what this means.
I would like to power the trailer and the charger at the same time.
If I disconnect the converter am I going to loose 12V within the trailer, lights water pump, etc.?
If I just disconnect the batteries is the converter still going to draw too much from the generator?

MrRchitty wrote:
Added note, the power factor on my Shumacher is 0.8.

I don't understand how PF relates to charging and the generator.
Do you mind explaining this a bit, in layman's terms? Use props if you have to. 🙂

Maybe I should start a new thread as I am getting off of the CPE 2000i Generator topic.