Will "Smart Vehicles" and their marketing cause more crashes

[rhagfo]

I will start this post with quotes from the 2017 F150 post.

spoon059 wrote:

rhagfo wrote:
We have already seen deaths due to people not turning off their engines when parking in the garage!

I think that has more to due with driver error/stupidity than an auto feature.

Its kinda like the "Runaway Toyota's" from a couple years back. Turns out that it was DRIVER ERROR. Drivers weren't properly securing floormats, which got underneath the accelerator and caused the accelerator to get stuck. Rather than put cars in neutral, they continued trying (unsuccessfully) to mash on the brakes. Didn't work.

mich800 wrote:

rhagfo wrote:



Yes, I do understand the concept and reason, I see a wrongful lawsuit in some car makers future because of this feature.
We have already seen deaths due to people not turning off their engines when parking in the garage!

Death from stop/start. Are you sure you are not confusing push button start. I have not heard of one death blamed on the stop/start function.

First of all let me say I am not anti technology, just one that asks "What If"!
I installed the Factory Curse Control on my 1968 Mustang GTCS in 1969 to control the lead in my right foot. Great option saved me far more than the $75 for the factory kit.
That said much of the marketing around much of the new technology seems to encourage bad driving habits! While not all marketing demonstrates these devices poorly, many do with drivers doing everything BUT driving while behind the wheel!

Used correctly most if not all will add to road safety, BUT for those that think these will allow them to focus their attention on things other than driving just scares me to death.
I travel a lot for my work, and rent many new cars with these features, some great some not so great.
One that I liked but was also annoying was a parking assistance that started beeping as you got closer to objects, well at the house we stay at here in Ireland while visiting the Granddaughter there is a tight gate and arch to the parking area. So every time through the beeper would go off, glad the car this time didn't have it!!

[fj12ryder]

2oldman wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
Much as we may hate to admit it, the middle class was founded on the backs of factory workers.

That's fine, but times change. Do you want to halt automation to keep 'dumb' labor jobs? Ain't gonna happen.

Just commenting that the loss of those 'dumb' labor jobs may mean the demise of a large middle class.

[2oldman]

fj12ryder wrote:
Much as we may hate to admit it, the middle class was founded on the backs of factory workers.

That's fine, but times change. Do you want to halt automation to keep 'dumb' labor jobs? Ain't gonna happen.

[fj12ryder]

2oldman wrote:

BenK wrote:
..does that mean these folks then should NOT lament loss of factory jobs to robotics...

They can lament all they want, but to get a job they're going to have learn new skills. And some people, quite honestly, are not capable of that.

And some people don't really want to be in Sales or flipping burgers. With no manufacturing jobs, what skills are you speaking of? Strictly service jobs are going to be getting scarcer as more people are dropped from the manufacturing rolls. No manufacturing means many fewer industrial-type jobs such as welding, machining, electrical work, etc. You only need so many plumbers, garbage men, and street sweepers.

Much as we may hate to admit it, the middle class was founded on the backs of factory workers.

[2oldman]

BenK wrote:
..does that mean these folks then should NOT lament loss of factory jobs to robotics...

They can lament all they want, but to get a job they're going to have learn new skills. And some people, quite honestly, are not capable of that.

[BenK]

Going to be lots of news on this topic...money for the first ones with a full autonomous vehicle...to put more folks out of work....

Latest article...US still has few rules of the road


And for those who covet Autonomous/AI/Automation...more jobs will continue to be lost to this, both domestically and around the world...Apple to fully automate...and more...They are coming...does that mean these folks then should NOT lament loss of factory jobs to robotics...

[BenK]

Lost abilities and/or knowledge of stuff...

Take a manual tranny vs an AUTOMATIC tranny...how many times do we here (and on other forms am on)...the question of 'what is the tow/haul button for???"....or it shifts too much (how to shut that off...or keep it in OD so it won't make that noise, etc)....or is 280*F okay?....

Betcha less than 10% know HOW2 shift a manual tranny today....

Traction Control...highly integrated with ABS...highly integrated with anti-sway control...highly integrated with torque control...highly integrated with Automatic Tranny...highly integrated with ECU...highly integrated with cruise control...highly integrated with forward looking avoidance braking system...highly integrated with the rest of the 100 or so on board computers and systems...right now on existing offerings...

Autonomous (has to have a min level of AI to be autonomous) needs to have a humongous DB...how long does it take a human to learn HOW2 drive? A few years?

Also, the decisions and assumptions any driver, whether a human or a robot has to make is also a huge DB to navigate...how many times does the human make the right decision vs the wrong decision...insurance anyone???

Unless *All* vehicles on the road are of similar architecture and software...there will be variations on that decision making...like humans coming from different learning experiences (just think of the singluar questions here and the multitude of answers that are similar to very different from each other

Or just take automatic emergency braking to avoid vehicle in front of you...of course you can out brake another driver who is also looking (gathering info via their various sensors) vs you just looking at the vehicle in front of you...gathering speed, distance vs the look up table of the distance you can stop for 'that' speed, 'that' OEM tire brand/model/size...aired up to the door label PSI, etc, etc.

Change any one of those known attributes, say tire size/brand/treadetc, and the above scenario (look up tables) will NOT be as good as all OEM equipment...

Or the decision tree (truth tables) for a two lane road, posted speed of 55 MPH, double, double center lines....and....an oncoming vehicle crosses the double, double line...what to do?

Do you just brake to have that other vehicle do a header into your?

Do you pull over to the shoulder?...or is there a guard rail protecting you from a 200 foot drop off?....or there is a guy changing his tire on the shoulder...or a bus stop with humans standing round there?

Do you pull over to the left and into their lane?...pull over even farther into their shoulder?

Then what will the other vehicle do?...does it have an AI/Autonomoous computer system...or an old fashioned human driver?

This scenario replicates for EVERYTHING to do with driving...to even just the vehicle itself....

[Paul_Clancy]

rhagfo wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

mkirsch wrote:

4x4ord wrote:
When jumbo jets are safely landed by computers I think it's pretty obvious that the necessary technology exists to drive a car down the road.

Not necessarily.

Jumbo jets have a fairly limited set of conditions and parameters to deal with. Another plane is not going to suddenly decide to change lanes without looking, or stop short in front of you, for example.

While technically those situations do arise, rarely, they are almost always FATAL even if the aircraft is being flown manually. By and large commercial aircraft control keeps a safe distance between planes and gives each plane exclusive rights to the runway as it is taking off and landing.

In a car you have a near-infinite set of variables to deal with. Kid pops out from between two parked cars chasing a ball. Some idiot tries to change lanes and occupy the same physical space as you. Guy ahead of you has a blowout, skids into the barrier, and starts flipping end-over-end... Just a few examples.

The situations you mention present some of the challenges the autonomous vehicles are faced with. The autonomous car will not be programmed to just follow rules....see this ..do that. Instead the computers are being developed to have a form of artificial intelligence. The fully autonomous cars will not be controlled by a smart phone.

I personally don't see how these will work except on major roads and urban areas! Many secondary roads have poor markings and difficult intersections.
It is a PITA when your cruse control acts up, it could become real big PITA if the autonomous driving feature failed!
Those with current versions of autonomous cruise control that slows if you come up on slower traffic, what happens if someone cuts in front of you!

The adaptive cruise will brake hard if needed. Probably faster than you or I could. I own a 2016 Subaru Outback with the eyesight system and it is pretty amazing. It is NOT a self driving car. What it is provides a suite of safety assist features that do remove some stress from driving. As humans we all make mistakes driving and elsewhere. These systems make these observational mistakes far less likely and in some cases make us better drivers. I know many here are perfect already but for the rest of us this is awesome use of tech. What it won't help is another driver being an idiot. That is the stuff of scifi.

[rhagfo]

2oldman wrote:

rhagfo wrote:
It is a PITA when your cruse control acts up,

What does that mean...your cruise control 'acts up'?

Kicks off for no reason or doesn't engage!

[toedtoes]

thomasmnile wrote:
The self driving and autonomous vehicles have a way to go. A guy driving a Tesla Model S with the first iteration of Tesla's 'autopilot' drove into a tractor trailer turning onto the road in front of his Tesla on a two lane road outside of Gainesville, Fl earlier this year. He was killed. Tesla engineers and law enforcement theorize the car's system could not distinguish between the white trailer and clouds in the sky or other light colored 'background'. Even more baffling, what was the driver doing that he failed to take back control of the car from the autopilot in an attempt to evade and avoid the collision. Guess they'll never know, but it would sure appear 'autopilot' isn't quite ready for prime time.

Read the above posts for details on that accident. The driver was watching a movie, speeding, and not paying attention to the road. It wasn't the "failure" of the auto pilot, but a driver who didn't pay attention.

[thomasmnile]

The self driving and autonomous vehicles have a way to go. A guy driving a Tesla Model S with the first iteration of Tesla's 'autopilot' drove into a tractor trailer turning onto the road in front of his Tesla on a two lane road outside of Gainesville, Fl earlier this year. He was killed. Tesla engineers and law enforcement theorize the car's system could not distinguish between the white trailer and clouds in the sky or other light colored 'background'. Even more baffling, what was the driver doing that he failed to take back control of the car from the autopilot in an attempt to evade and avoid the collision. Guess they'll never know, but it would sure appear 'autopilot' isn't quite ready for prime time.

[2oldman]

rhagfo wrote:
It is a PITA when your cruse control acts up,

What does that mean...your cruise control 'acts up'?

[rhagfo]

4x4ord wrote:

mkirsch wrote:

4x4ord wrote:
When jumbo jets are safely landed by computers I think it's pretty obvious that the necessary technology exists to drive a car down the road.

Not necessarily.

Jumbo jets have a fairly limited set of conditions and parameters to deal with. Another plane is not going to suddenly decide to change lanes without looking, or stop short in front of you, for example.

While technically those situations do arise, rarely, they are almost always FATAL even if the aircraft is being flown manually. By and large commercial aircraft control keeps a safe distance between planes and gives each plane exclusive rights to the runway as it is taking off and landing.

In a car you have a near-infinite set of variables to deal with. Kid pops out from between two parked cars chasing a ball. Some idiot tries to change lanes and occupy the same physical space as you. Guy ahead of you has a blowout, skids into the barrier, and starts flipping end-over-end... Just a few examples.

The situations you mention present some of the challenges the autonomous vehicles are faced with. The autonomous car will not be programmed to just follow rules....see this ..do that. Instead the computers are being developed to have a form of artificial intelligence. The fully autonomous cars will not be controlled by a smart phone.

I personally don't see how these will work except on major roads and urban areas! Many secondary roads have poor markings and difficult intersections.
It is a PITA when your cruse control acts up, it could become real big PITA if the autonomous driving feature failed!
Those with current versions of autonomous cruise control that slows if you come up on slower traffic, what happens if someone cuts in front of you!

[time2roll]

It is important to note that Tesla disables Autopilot by default and requires explicit acknowledgement that the system is new technology and still in a public beta phase before it can be enabled. When drivers activate Autopilot, the acknowledgment box explains, among other things, that Autopilot “is an assist feature that requires you to keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times," and that "you need to maintain control and responsibility for your vehicle” while using it. Additionally, every time that Autopilot is engaged, the car reminds the driver to “Always keep your hands on the wheel. Be prepared to take over at any time.” The system also makes frequent checks to ensure that the driver's hands remain on the wheel and provides visual and audible alerts if hands-on is not detected. It then gradually slows down the car until hands-on is detected again.

Brown was reportedly watching a harry potter video at the time of the crash.

The victim in this case did have a record of speeding, with eight tickets in six years.



Frank Baressi, 62, the driver of the truck and owner of Okemah Express LLC, said the Tesla driver was “playing Harry Potter on the TV screen” at the time of the crash and driving so quickly that “he went so fast through my trailer I didn’t see him.”

“It was still playing when he died and snapped a telephone pole a quarter mile down the road,” Baressi told The Associated Press in an interview from his home in Palm Harbor, Florida. He acknowledged he couldn’t see the movie, only heard it.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Joshua+Brown+tesla+cras...

[fj12ryder]

I guess it boils down to what you consider a "self-driving car". So do some research yourself.

[time2roll]

fj12ryder wrote:
^^^^^^^^From the Tesla website:

"All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver."

The vehicle being driven was not a self driving car. The person was tempting fate and lost.
Do some research.