I am considering the purchase of 2019 KZ Connect Lite C201QB. Unfortunately this will be a sight unseen purchase. The dealer told me that he would not hold me to continue with the purchase if I don’t like what I see after it arrives. Delivery will be mid June if I order now, well after salt season.
If I decide not to take this trailer then the all too short Atlantic Canada summer season will be pretty well shot for ordering a different TT.
Hopefully with the help of forum members I can at least resolve my biggest concern about this trailer before I order it.
None of these trailers ( KZ Connect Lite 2017-18 C201RB or C201QB) are available for me to look at anywhere close to me in Atlantic Canada. I did look over a Connect 261RB, photos below.
I have read a number of reports of various deficiencies in Lippert frames. I would not be surprised if one part of the Lite designation is reduced metal in the frame compared to the Connect or Spree Connect series.
What I really hope to be able to sort out is how much if any improvement there has been with this problem area for 2018 trailers over earlier models. It would really help if someone could post pictures of the spring mount area of the frame of one of these (C201QB/RB).
I have read posts that suggest that the worst of the Lippert frame troubles may be in the past. Is this correct??
Damage to dual axle spring mounts as a result of the lateral stress during turns seems to be a pretty clear cause and effect. At least this area is easily visible, and I can keep a close eye on wheel alignment as a symptom. If and when the problem appears, I can get the reinforcement done. I have been DIY cutting and fitting steel for decades for hobby /home use. The only skill I don’t have in this area is the actual welding itself.
I do plan to keep this trailer for the long haul. I am 60+, and we plan to make this our only TT after 9 seasons with an 8ft popup. The need for DIY fixing and upgrading is part of my DNA anyway.
It’s the weakness in other less visible areas of the frame that concerns me more. By the time I see external effects of frame failure there may be widespread damage.
The yearly mileage for our trips would be at the short end of the spectrum. We will be sure to go under the GVWR, and never carry much water in the tanks. If not for this I probably wouldn’t even be considering this brand of trailer.
I did manage to get some pictures of a new Connect 261RB, not Lite, at a RV show. See Below. Unfortunately this was before I knew about the frame problems so I didn’t get a clean close up of the flange/rail joint. Its covered with dirt, so I can’ t tell if its welded or rolled. For sure there doesn’t seem to be much if any reinforcement of the spring mounts for a 6800lb GVWR trailer. I tried to scale the metal thickness with a photo editor from the shot with the 14” wheel. Both the flange and the spring hangert look to be 3/16”. At least this would be an improvement over the 1/8” welded up “I-beams” that I have read about.
From the info Lippert frames the narrow flanges look similar to the other welded up “I-beams” that are so problematic.
THESE PICTURES ARE NOT THE TRAILER I AM LOOKING AT. THEY ARE A DIFFERENT NEW CONNECT 261RB.
Click For Full-Size Image.
Click For Full-Size Image.
Click For Full-Size Image.
If I decide not to take this trailer then the all too short Atlantic Canada summer season will be pretty well shot for ordering a different TT.
Hopefully with the help of forum members I can at least resolve my biggest concern about this trailer before I order it.
None of these trailers ( KZ Connect Lite 2017-18 C201RB or C201QB) are available for me to look at anywhere close to me in Atlantic Canada. I did look over a Connect 261RB, photos below.
I have read a number of reports of various deficiencies in Lippert frames. I would not be surprised if one part of the Lite designation is reduced metal in the frame compared to the Connect or Spree Connect series.
What I really hope to be able to sort out is how much if any improvement there has been with this problem area for 2018 trailers over earlier models. It would really help if someone could post pictures of the spring mount area of the frame of one of these (C201QB/RB).
I have read posts that suggest that the worst of the Lippert frame troubles may be in the past. Is this correct??
Damage to dual axle spring mounts as a result of the lateral stress during turns seems to be a pretty clear cause and effect. At least this area is easily visible, and I can keep a close eye on wheel alignment as a symptom. If and when the problem appears, I can get the reinforcement done. I have been DIY cutting and fitting steel for decades for hobby /home use. The only skill I don’t have in this area is the actual welding itself.
I do plan to keep this trailer for the long haul. I am 60+, and we plan to make this our only TT after 9 seasons with an 8ft popup. The need for DIY fixing and upgrading is part of my DNA anyway.
It’s the weakness in other less visible areas of the frame that concerns me more. By the time I see external effects of frame failure there may be widespread damage.
The yearly mileage for our trips would be at the short end of the spectrum. We will be sure to go under the GVWR, and never carry much water in the tanks. If not for this I probably wouldn’t even be considering this brand of trailer.
I did manage to get some pictures of a new Connect 261RB, not Lite, at a RV show. See Below. Unfortunately this was before I knew about the frame problems so I didn’t get a clean close up of the flange/rail joint. Its covered with dirt, so I can’ t tell if its welded or rolled. For sure there doesn’t seem to be much if any reinforcement of the spring mounts for a 6800lb GVWR trailer. I tried to scale the metal thickness with a photo editor from the shot with the 14” wheel. Both the flange and the spring hangert look to be 3/16”. At least this would be an improvement over the 1/8” welded up “I-beams” that I have read about.
From the info Lippert frames the narrow flanges look similar to the other welded up “I-beams” that are so problematic.
THESE PICTURES ARE NOT THE TRAILER I AM LOOKING AT. THEY ARE A DIFFERENT NEW CONNECT 261RB.
Click For Full-Size Image.
Click For Full-Size Image.
Click For Full-Size Image.
Lynnmor wrote:
I made bolt in side to side trusses to reduce the flex in my incredibly weak frame.
Nice job.... they look like the cross member that MORRyde sends with the SRE4000 kits.
FIRST
Myredracer, you said something which gets to the heart of my original question: What I really hope to be able to sort out is how much if any improvement there has been with this problem area for 2018 trailers over earlier models.
I note from your profile that you have a KZ Spree 262KS, which coincidentally is also rated at 6800lb GVWR like the 261RB in my pix. This makes a really good point of comparison from 2014 to 2018. ( Sorry, I'm mis-remembering here, I know you have a custom frame. Do/did other ~26' trailers have the 3pc 1/8" built up rails/)
I spend a lot of time using the paint.net free photo editor. One use for this is in making measurements from photos. I constructed a center point for one of the wheels in the 3rd pix , and measured the radius of the 14" wheel to the bead point. In arbitrary photo units it is 6.19". I measured the thickness of the frame flange, 0.18". 7"x(0.18/6.19)is 0.20". I expect some error in my measurements, but the flange thickness looks a whole lot closer to 3/16" (0.1875) than it does to 1/8". The real proof of this will be when I can physically measure some of the current KZ frame member thickness soon.
Hopefully this frame is thicker than earlier units, so that is one confidence building point in proceeding with the purchase.
The splan going forward would be to keep a real close eye on the known problems area of spring mounts, wheel alignment, and tire wear, starting with 3 point tread depth measurements of all 4 tires during my PDI. Its about 1300mi from the KZ factory to here. That should be far enough to assess the state of alignment of the wheels. If I see problems developing, I may decide to implement some of the fixes listed in this excellent post
TT Spring Hanger Stiffening (Long, lots of pics)
One item that I could see adding without touching the frame would be a bolt on side to side rail like this
Click For Full-Size Image.
Forewarned is forearmed.
SECOND
Soundguy, I want to make sure I understand the timeline of broken frame repair of your 2014 FE. If you purchased the trailer in 2014, I am seeing 12 month warranty, so it would have run out in 2015? Oct 2017 would be something like 2 years out of warranty. That seems to me quite good that Lippert would fix your frame this far past the warranty. How much was your dealer responsible for pushing Lippert to make good on this?
Its a double issue for me, because if I was to undertake actual reinforcement mods to the frame, wouldn't that kill any chance of a Lippert fix later on?
BTW, nice looking electrical work in your profile pix. I am guessing you're an electronics guy like me. I thought as much from "soundguy" which I have actually called myself occasionally. 20+ years NAV Canada Airport tech with concurrent sound system moonlighting.
Thanks everyone for helping me on this.
Ian
Myredracer, you said something which gets to the heart of my original question: What I really hope to be able to sort out is how much if any improvement there has been with this problem area for 2018 trailers over earlier models.
myredracer wrote:
The frame on these (unless they've changed recently) is made from 3 pieces of 1/8" sheet steel and welded together. It flexes a LOT more compared to the more common 1-piece rolled beams. Fatigue cracks can develop above the spring hangers and I know someone with a KZ who has had this happen.
I note from your profile that you have a KZ Spree 262KS, which coincidentally is also rated at 6800lb GVWR like the 261RB in my pix. This makes a really good point of comparison from 2014 to 2018. ( Sorry, I'm mis-remembering here, I know you have a custom frame. Do/did other ~26' trailers have the 3pc 1/8" built up rails/)
I spend a lot of time using the paint.net free photo editor. One use for this is in making measurements from photos. I constructed a center point for one of the wheels in the 3rd pix , and measured the radius of the 14" wheel to the bead point. In arbitrary photo units it is 6.19". I measured the thickness of the frame flange, 0.18". 7"x(0.18/6.19)is 0.20". I expect some error in my measurements, but the flange thickness looks a whole lot closer to 3/16" (0.1875) than it does to 1/8". The real proof of this will be when I can physically measure some of the current KZ frame member thickness soon.
Hopefully this frame is thicker than earlier units, so that is one confidence building point in proceeding with the purchase.
The splan going forward would be to keep a real close eye on the known problems area of spring mounts, wheel alignment, and tire wear, starting with 3 point tread depth measurements of all 4 tires during my PDI. Its about 1300mi from the KZ factory to here. That should be far enough to assess the state of alignment of the wheels. If I see problems developing, I may decide to implement some of the fixes listed in this excellent post
TT Spring Hanger Stiffening (Long, lots of pics)
One item that I could see adding without touching the frame would be a bolt on side to side rail like this
Click For Full-Size Image.Forewarned is forearmed.
SECOND
Soundguy, I want to make sure I understand the timeline of broken frame repair of your 2014 FE. If you purchased the trailer in 2014, I am seeing 12 month warranty, so it would have run out in 2015? Oct 2017 would be something like 2 years out of warranty. That seems to me quite good that Lippert would fix your frame this far past the warranty. How much was your dealer responsible for pushing Lippert to make good on this?
Its a double issue for me, because if I was to undertake actual reinforcement mods to the frame, wouldn't that kill any chance of a Lippert fix later on?
BTW, nice looking electrical work in your profile pix. I am guessing you're an electronics guy like me. I thought as much from "soundguy" which I have actually called myself occasionally. 20+ years NAV Canada Airport tech with concurrent sound system moonlighting.
Thanks everyone for helping me on this.
Ian
I have first hand knowledge on the KZ frames that most owners will not due to experiences on a previous TT we owned. Day after we owned it, we discovered major issues in the frame. The spring hangers were all bent to one side by around 1/2". The bottom flange of the frame got distorted above all hangers as a result of them flexing side-side. I temporarily tied a camcorder under the frame and went for a drive. The spring hangers were swinging left/right like a pendulum every time I turned a 90 degree corner! The hanger movement is harder on the spring bushings and ours were all shot in just the 2K mile trip to the dealer. The welds throughout the frame were terrible and substandard. Got delivered in the winter and didn't take long for rust to develop on the frame and components.
Frame flex combined with marginally rated axles allows for considerable camber change in the wheels. Not only is there higher lateral movement, the vertical up/down bounding while travelling stresses the aluminum superstructure and can even cause welds to fail.
The frame on these (unless they've changed recently) is made from 3 pieces of 1/8" sheet steel and welded together. It flexes a LOT more compared to the more common 1-piece rolled beams. Fatigue cracks can develop above the spring hangers and I know someone with a KZ who has had this happen.
Not to blame KZ alone, I have seen the identical frame on a few other brands/models. If I were ever looking for a new TT again, I would look for anything with a non-Lippert frame. There are some brands, like Jayco and Lance for ex. that use a BAL frame and Northwoods products out of Oregon that make their own. At one point KZ wanted to switch to BAL frames but Norco could not commit to providing enough quantity. As evidence, you can find the BAL frames on early 2014 Connect TTs.
I put the blame entirely on Lippert for continuing to crank out the same poor frames year after year. They alone design and manufacture the frames are liable for any defects. What the RV manufacturers are at fault for is continuing to purchase and use the same poor frames when they absolutely know that there are problems with them (ask me why I know, pffft). If you plan to keep the TT a long time and/or plan to put a lot of miles on it, I'd look for at least something with the more common 1-piece frame design. Some brands with the same frame have additional strengthening like gussets for ex. Sadly, frame failure or issues are usually blamed on an owner by Lippert regardless except in our case we only owned it one day but they still said initially it was within spec.
Frame flex combined with marginally rated axles allows for considerable camber change in the wheels. Not only is there higher lateral movement, the vertical up/down bounding while travelling stresses the aluminum superstructure and can even cause welds to fail.
The frame on these (unless they've changed recently) is made from 3 pieces of 1/8" sheet steel and welded together. It flexes a LOT more compared to the more common 1-piece rolled beams. Fatigue cracks can develop above the spring hangers and I know someone with a KZ who has had this happen.
Not to blame KZ alone, I have seen the identical frame on a few other brands/models. If I were ever looking for a new TT again, I would look for anything with a non-Lippert frame. There are some brands, like Jayco and Lance for ex. that use a BAL frame and Northwoods products out of Oregon that make their own. At one point KZ wanted to switch to BAL frames but Norco could not commit to providing enough quantity. As evidence, you can find the BAL frames on early 2014 Connect TTs.
I put the blame entirely on Lippert for continuing to crank out the same poor frames year after year. They alone design and manufacture the frames are liable for any defects. What the RV manufacturers are at fault for is continuing to purchase and use the same poor frames when they absolutely know that there are problems with them (ask me why I know, pffft). If you plan to keep the TT a long time and/or plan to put a lot of miles on it, I'd look for at least something with the more common 1-piece frame design. Some brands with the same frame have additional strengthening like gussets for ex. Sadly, frame failure or issues are usually blamed on an owner by Lippert regardless except in our case we only owned it one day but they still said initially it was within spec.
