25% better mpg from current diesels? Too good to be true?

[Groover]

Engine Builder magazine is reporting on a new piston design by Speed of Air® (SoA) Engine Technologies that claims to improve the fuel economy of the three leading pickup diesels by 25%. It obviously would be an expensive retrofit but might not cost much if offered by the OEMs.

Article

I love to see new tech like this but so much of it never gets to mass production that I have learned to be skeptical.

[Desert_Captain]

Grit dog wrote:

Desert Captain wrote:
With diesel being about 25 percent higher in cost than regular gas where is the net savings?
Just saying/asking... :h

You’re not really a pot stirrer so why now?

Not trying to stir any pots but some folks here are playing fast and loose with the math...

"If" diesels get 10 to 15 percent better mileage and diesel fuel costs 25+ percent more than gas then once you add in the cost of these wonder pistons {I doubt they are free to buy much less install} there doesn't appear to me much of net savings {assuming they actually work as represented here}.

I like the power and reliability of a diesel, had one in my last boat {a 40' trawler} for 5 years but now, like many I simply have no use for that motor.

There are three kinds of people on this planet... those that can do math and those that can't.

:B

[StirCrazy]

mkirsch wrote:
Someone's going to say it, so it might as well be me:

Getting rid of the poorly-executed emissions equipment on these engines would accomplish the same thing without an expensive fancy piston.

actualy I don't think anyone was going to say it because it doesnt make any sence.

emissions may be a garbage set up but they do lower emiaaions, if you take them off emissions will go up so taking them off will not do anything aside from a little bit better milage as the expence of more emissions.

there has been a Canadian company testing these pistons in the engines they remanufacture for almost two years and here are there results

"During testing, DFC Diesel observed fuel consumption reductions of 25% or more with factory tuning, an average of 5% increases in torque and horsepower, NOx reductions as high as 80%, and the ability to extend oil change intervals by 50% due to decreased soot and fuel dilution. Observed benefits also include reduced regeneration cycles, DEF consumption, and visible exhaust/opacity, along with noticeably smoother and quieter operation."

Steve

[fj12ryder]

A lot of discussion for something discussed on a Youtube video.

[mkirsch]

ktmrfs wrote:
All US and foreign patents that are issues are viewable on the patent and trademark website by anyone, post that a oil company supposedly bought and set on a shelf patent! And patents expire, so anyone can use it once expired. anyone done that?????

Hang on, just one last fold on my new tinfoil hat... There, fits perfectly!

Okay, now that I'm in full tinfoil hat mode, don't you realize that "they" can pay to have patents stricken from the record or declared top secret?

[RetiredRealtorR]

ktmrfs wrote:

RetiredRealtorRick wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:

RetiredRealtorRick wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:

opnspaces wrote:
25% is a huge boost in economy. I don't know if diesel's are figured into the manufacturers Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) or not. But if they can come out with a piston top that gives 25% more economy for a gasoline engine the manufacturer's jump all over that.

You mean like they did with the 200 mpg carburetor? 🙂

Yup, much the same --- some big oil company will buy the technology and patents and set it on a shelf. Done.

Uh, that was a joke. 🙂

Mine wasn't. Google it.

"Don't believe everything you find on the Internet"

Thomas Jefferson

Oh yeah, I forgot about Thomas Jefferson's famous statement. I'll have to remember that next time I Google something. Thanks for the reminder :W

[valhalla360]

ktmrfs wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:
If they could boost MPG by 25%, the auto companies would bid billions for the patent as they could dominate the trucking industry (and other heavy commercial engines) for decades until the patent ran out.

As mentioned, patents aren't secret. They are publicly available. How else would you know if someone already patented an idea? Plus, you can use patented ideas but simply have to pay for them. So if true, it would be worth a court case to open the design to public use.

The patent holder can choose to not license the patent to others.

Exactly. There are a FEW patents that were/are considered top secret by the US gov't and issued but not published. Several such classified patents were issued to Hedi Lamar the actress. Even after they were unclassified they were hard to find since they were issued under her real name, not stage name, made it harder to search by patent holders name.

Yes, top secret stuff is a special case but ICE engine efficiency isn't a likely target for that.

As I said, that big of an improvement would be worth the court case. So if they don't license it, you just build it anyway and let them sue you. The court will assign a value for the patent...you don't get to say something silly like $10mil per engine, it has to be justified by actual value. Very quickly it would be sorted out (they might set up a dummy company to do it, so it would limit risk).

Alternatively, some other country not subject to US patent law would simply start using it in the best interest of their country.

The patent system isn't designed to restrict the use of new technology, only to make sure those who develop it are fairly compensated.

[ktmrfs]

valhalla360 wrote:
If they could boost MPG by 25%, the auto companies would bid billions for the patent as they could dominate the trucking industry (and other heavy commercial engines) for decades until the patent ran out.

As mentioned, patents aren't secret. They are publicly available. How else would you know if someone already patented an idea? Plus, you can use patented ideas but simply have to pay for them. So if true, it would be worth a court case to open the design to public use.

The patent holder can choose to not license the patent to others.

Exactly. There are a FEW patents that were/are considered top secret by the US gov't and issued but not published. Several such classified patents were issued to Hedi Lamar the actress. Even after they were unclassified they were hard to find since they were issued under her real name, not stage name, made it harder to search by patent holders name.

[valhalla360]

If they could boost MPG by 25%, the auto companies would bid billions for the patent as they could dominate the trucking industry (and other heavy commercial engines) for decades until the patent ran out.

As mentioned, patents aren't secret. They are publicly available. How else would you know if someone already patented an idea? Plus, you can use patented ideas but simply have to pay for them. So if true, it would be worth a court case to open the design to public use.

[ktmrfs]

RetiredRealtorRick wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:

opnspaces wrote:
25% is a huge boost in economy. I don't know if diesel's are figured into the manufacturers Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) or not. But if they can come out with a piston top that gives 25% more economy for a gasoline engine the manufacturer's jump all over that.

You mean like they did with the 200 mpg carburetor? 🙂

Yup, much the same --- some big oil company will buy the technology and patents and set it on a shelf. Done.

All US and foreign patents that are issues are viewable on the patent and trademark website by anyone, post that a oil company supposedly bought and set on a shelf patent! And patents expire, so anyone can use it once expired. anyone done that?????

And other than perpetual motion machines one doesn't have to prove something actually works to get a patent. Usually the examires will catch ones that are obviously not doable, but there are patents issues that really aren't realistically able to be implemented.

[fj12ryder]

RetiredRealtorRick wrote:
Mine wasn't. Google it.

Yeah, I think it was an urban legend even before the internet. 🙂

[Grit_dog]

Desert Captain wrote:
With diesel being about 25 percent higher in cost than regular gas where is the net savings?
Just saying/asking... :h

You’re not really a pot stirrer so why now?

[ktmrfs]

RetiredRealtorRick wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:

RetiredRealtorRick wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:

opnspaces wrote:
25% is a huge boost in economy. I don't know if diesel's are figured into the manufacturers Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) or not. But if they can come out with a piston top that gives 25% more economy for a gasoline engine the manufacturer's jump all over that.

You mean like they did with the 200 mpg carburetor? 🙂

Yup, much the same --- some big oil company will buy the technology and patents and set it on a shelf. Done.

Uh, that was a joke. 🙂

Mine wasn't. Google it.

"Don't believe everything you find on the Internet"

Thomas Jefferson

[RetiredRealtorR]

fj12ryder wrote:

RetiredRealtorRick wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:

opnspaces wrote:
25% is a huge boost in economy. I don't know if diesel's are figured into the manufacturers Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) or not. But if they can come out with a piston top that gives 25% more economy for a gasoline engine the manufacturer's jump all over that.

You mean like they did with the 200 mpg carburetor? 🙂

Yup, much the same --- some big oil company will buy the technology and patents and set it on a shelf. Done.

Uh, that was a joke. 🙂

Mine wasn't. Google it.

[Groover]

bob_nestor wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:

Desert Captain wrote:
With diesel being about 25 percent higher in cost than regular gas where is the net savings?
Just saying/asking... :h

The price of gas has nothing to do with it. They aren't comparing gas and diesel.

Yeah, people almost always try comparing gas and diesel by the cost per gallon but what you're actually buying is energy content. Diesel has about 13% more energy content than gasoline, and when ethanol is added to gasoline it lowers the energy content even more. All this according to our faithful and honest Government Agency, the EPA.

Diesel already gets 10-15 percent more miles per gallon than due to that extra energy content, higher compression and lack of a throttle plate. Another 25 percent on top of that would be huge. So the questions are whether this works as stated in the real world and whether any diesel engine will be politically acceptable in 5 to 10 years.

[bob_nestor]

fj12ryder wrote:

Desert Captain wrote:
With diesel being about 25 percent higher in cost than regular gas where is the net savings?
Just saying/asking... :h

The price of gas has nothing to do with it. They aren't comparing gas and diesel.

Yeah, people almost always try comparing gas and diesel by the cost per gallon but what you're actually buying is energy content. Diesel has about 13% more energy content than gasoline, and when ethanol is added to gasoline it lowers the energy content even more. All this according to our faithful and honest Government Agency, the EPA.