Adding scissor jacks for side to side leveling

[vtraudt]

My Forest River Salem has electric 'stabilizer' jacks (pivot, won't work for side/side leveling even IF they were strong enough). And the usual front A frame jack.

I do NOT like to drive onto (2x6, lego blocks, curvy plastic thingies, etc). I rather put the trailer exactly where I want it, THEN do all the leveling.

Front/back leveling with the front A frame jack is no issue.

For side to side, I would like to add scissor jacks on (or near, 3/4 points, else) the main frame at each corner. From this weeks stay, it seems that most (all?) not so new trailers have just that. I watched dozens setting up (some with hand crank, some with power drill/impact).

My trailer has a max weight of 7000 lbs.
The main rails are one piece, going from front to back (no welds, no steps).

a) is it ok to 'lift' at the ends or near the ends of the main rails?
b) with theoretically 1/2 of the weight (3500 lbs) on one jack, should I pick 3500 lbs jacks, or go even higher?

I am not sure yet if I will permanently mount (if it works, I likely will), either weld on or bolt on (only reason not to would be weight/inertia added to the rear.

Also, if it works, I would REMOVE the electric stabilizers (the jacks will level AND stabilize) and maybe use the MOTORS (2 on hand. would by 2 more) and add 2 more switches for 'electric' leveling (not AUTO leveling).

Does someone have experience with this modification?
Concerns, suggestions, ideas?

[Huntindog]

There is more to this than what meets the eye.
Most trailer frames are "cambered".
This is running weld beads at specific locations and patterns on the frame rails. This process slightly bends the frame, and more importantly strengthens it while adding a springyness to it. This allows for a lighter frame to be used, as the cambering puts the strong points just where it is needed. The locations/type of cambering are determined by the engineers,based on the expected loads for each trailers design. I became somewhat educated on this when having a sidebar dialog with Jbarca on a frame repair project he was undertaking. Curious about what I was reading, I grabbed some 10' metal stock from my pile and sparked up the welder. It was very enlightening. Each weld bead I ran caused measurable movements in the straightness of the stock compared to an identical unwelded control piece. More importantly the feel of the cambered stock changed dramactically. It felt more alive, with a definant springness that made it want to bounce back to its unloaded state as load was applied to it. The control piece felt dead and weak in comparisson. with out the "bounce back property of the cambered piece. IOW, applying enough force to permanently bend it was much easier.

As to what this means to what you plan on doing: I would only apply such force at a location that it was designed to take it. A jack as close as possible to the wheels should be pretty safe. Other than that, is a roll of the dice. You could end up applying force in a direction where the cambering is in the wrong direction to the force you are applying. Nothing good could come of that.
Your frames cambering can be in different locations and directions, and can be impossible to see once the trailer is built.

[Gdetrailer]

aftermath wrote:
vtraudt, I have another idea for you to consider. I purchased a Level Mate Pro system for my trailer. It is an electronic gizmo that I use with my cell phone. When I get to the campsite, I turn it on and it tells me that I am off by 1.5 inches on the driver side. I have a combination of planks and boards that I can drive up on. Bingo! I am set. I don't have to guess and make a number of tries, just put in what I need and I am good. It is a bit spendy but easy to set up and really easy to use. Used it for over a year now and it continues to simplify things for me. Google it and learn more.

Link to Amazon page for Level Mate Pro HERE

Spendy for sure, but takes the guessing out of the picture..

[aftermath]

vtraudt, I have another idea for you to consider. I purchased a Level Mate Pro system for my trailer. It is an electronic gizmo that I use with my cell phone. When I get to the campsite, I turn it on and it tells me that I am off by 1.5 inches on the driver side. I have a combination of planks and boards that I can drive up on. Bingo! I am set. I don't have to guess and make a number of tries, just put in what I need and I am good. It is a bit spendy but easy to set up and really easy to use. Used it for over a year now and it continues to simplify things for me. Google it and learn more.

[Gdetrailer]

vtraudt wrote:

Using Tires (here: axles): I will do a trial run (already have a hydraulic jack on hand) and lifting one axle at a time to put boards under the tires (or put a jack stand under the axle) to level. Reason for investigating the frame lift option: axles not easily accessible for jacking up.
Using FRAME near AXLE: best of both worlds? Same stress to chassis, yet better accessible than axle. Will try this FIRST (tailer in driveway, tilting terrible to one side).

HAVE to get one (two) of those 'curved' and 'scaled' levels (thanks for the link!).

Not sure what the aversion to simply backing your trailer onto a board is. Way easier than placing a jack, jacking up then placing board then dropping jack.

The way I do this is place my trailer where I want it to be parked.

Then I pull forward just enough to place my board behind the rear tire.

Then I backup just enough to get both tires onto the board.

This operation takes one time getting out of vehicle, grab board, set board and get into vehicle. A little practice and it can be done in less than two minutes.

Much, much easier, faster and safer than the way you propose.

Graduated level in inches should be very helpful. I don't have them but I do seem to have a knack for noticing approximately how much it is out of level from nearly 20yrs of towing a travel trailer.

a "2 by" is typically 1.5" thick, for less lift you can get "5/4 boards" typically sold as decking planks that is right on the money at 1" thick.

Lots of easy ways to do this without dreaming up complicated ways to do the same thing..

Seems like a lot of folks want to create a "Rube Goldberg" type of solution for everything. I prefer the direct and to the point route to all things in life.

[vtraudt]

Thanks for the input (qualified or guts feeling/opinion).

Some thoughts:
Flex: if the frame flexes so much, every time I push it up with the front jack, it will flex (actually same or worse than putting one jack for example at 3/4 point in the rear)
Flex: dynamic flex (bouncing up/down during thousands of miles) would completley desintegrade the house if static lift is flexing so much that i might cause damage.
Force: only a max of 50% of the trailer weight can theoretically be lifted by one jack; it is NOT possible to lift more weight; the other half (likely a lot more) is still resting on the wheels or front jack). The 50% would mean one jack (think: middle of bumper) and front jack, all wheels off the ground. Then 3500 would be on the single rear jack, and 3500 on the front jack.
Using Tires (here: axles): I will do a trial run (already have a hydraulic jack on hand) and lifting one axle at a time to put boards under the tires (or put a jack stand under the axle) to level. Reason for investigating the frame lift option: axles not easily accessible for jacking up.
Using FRAME near AXLE: best of both worlds? Same stress to chassis, yet better accessible than axle. Will try this FIRST (tailer in driveway, tilting terrible to one side).

HAVE to get one (two) of those 'curved' and 'scaled' levels (thanks for the link!).

[Grit_dog]

^Interesting info that your trailer frames were that flexible. But understandable why you’d caution against it if the frame essentially isn’t even stiff enough to handle some pressure from a stab jack without bending.

[Gdetrailer]

Grit dog wrote:


To your first point, I don't see supporting the trailer in a static condition, with anything less than a house party with 20 people jammed in the RV rocking out to some hip hop, ever being anywhere near what the dynamic stresses are throughout the trailer while being towed. If it survives abrupt bridge approaches, humps, dips and potholes at 70mph, it will be fine with a couple people walking around. But yeah, I wouldn't put the stab jacks at the front and back. 1/4 points or 1/3 points would be more effective and appropriate.

Previous trailer I owned you could not open or shut the door if you cranked up the stabilizers too much or placed them too close to the end of the trailer. Granted, that trailer used cheaper box frame which does flex a lot more than a C channel or I beam frame.

Not all trailers have a substantial enough frame to fully handle this kind of loads.

Believe what you wish, but I have experienced racking of the trailer frame and box when trying to over compensate with jacks or stabilizers on a less than perfect campsite.

Granted, with my experience, it was temporary and I was able to open or close the door once I removed most of the pressure from the stabilizer. But, I suspect, over time it would be very easy to cause other collateral damage with repeated applications of racking.

Placing a board under a tire requires nearly zero effort on the part of the driver.

To make things easier and much less guessing on how much lift is needed, they do make levels which you can stick on to the side of the trailer that reads directly in inches how far off level you are.. Takes the extra guess work out of setting up.



Found HEREfor under $10.

Most likely you can even find a "APP" for that also if it too much bother for stick on levels.

[dodge_guy]

You could put the scissor type jacks just in front of the wheels and that would lift it as if it was the weight of the axles. They do this in 5th wheels with the auto leveling system.

[valhalla360]

I would be hesitant to use the corners as the frame could flex. I believe this is where most of the warnings come from. That and the basic scissor stabilizers provide almost no resistance to horizontal movement.

I would look at the 5th wheel auto level systems. It shouldn't be hard to adapt those to a travel trailer. Most include a set of stabilizers near the axles.

As long as the wheels are firmly seated on the ground (with the springs extending as you lift) normal blocking of the tires should work. I've never been comfortable when I see 5th wheels with one side completely off the ground. The legs are simply not structured well to resist horizontal movement.

[Grit_dog]

Gdetrailer wrote:
A) NO, not "OK" to lift all the weight at the ends of the frame.

Frame and the box on top of the frame are designed and built for all the weight to bear down on the axles, lifting trailer at the ends will flex the frame and the box on top in ways that it shouldn't be flexed. You might not see the damage immediately but repeated extreme flexing has the potential to rip the bolts holding the box on top right through the wood framing of the floor.


Something else you are missing, if you lift the trailer enough that the wheels loose contact with the ground, how are you planning to keep the trailer from moving forward and backwards????

Effectively you are removing the safety of chocking your wheels, wheel chocks are a very important safety item, only chock one side of trailer and now you have a good chance that the trailer can pivot and turn and you measly little jacks cannot stop that from happening.

To your first point, I don't see supporting the trailer in a static condition, with anything less than a house party with 20 people jammed in the RV rocking out to some hip hop, ever being anywhere near what the dynamic stresses are throughout the trailer while being towed. If it survives abrupt bridge approaches, humps, dips and potholes at 70mph, it will be fine with a couple people walking around. But yeah, I wouldn't put the stab jacks at the front and back. 1/4 points or 1/3 points would be more effective and appropriate.

To the wheel chocks, yes, this isn't an "all conditions" type setup, but it's not an issue at all really in any "normal" conditions, maybe up to a 10% slope, idk.
Trailer parked, both sides chocked from rolling whichever way the slope runs. Jacks go down and lift one side. Other side is still planted on the wheels and chocked. The low side, as the weight comes off, the trailer is supported by a jack that is rotationally resistant. Not an issue in the least, with a bit of common sense. (which one would assume that anyone fabbing their own stabilizer system would have).

[Grit_dog]

First, OP understands that the stab jacks aren't levelers, so use your reading skills folks.
OP, to me, it seems the level of effort required to level with jacks or under the wheels is of a similar effort, however your idea is pretty creative and sound IMO if you want to go through that effort of installing.
The one down-side I see is stability or frame flex potentially. Currently, trailer is supported in basically 5 spots per side, tongue jack, front stab, 2 axles and rear stab.
You'd be reducing those 5 points to 3 effectively. I'd do a test manually. 1/4 and 3/4 points on the frame seem about right. I'd just crib up at those points on one side, taking weight off the wheels and see how it feels from a flex standpoint and verify your jacking points will be acceptable before diving in with a permanent solution.

[Gdetrailer]

vtraudt wrote:
My Forest River Salem has electric 'stabilizer' jacks (pivot, won't work for side/side leveling even IF they were strong enough). And the usual front A frame jack.

Stabilizers are for "stabilization", period. Never designed or intended to "level".

They are there solely to reduce the up and down motion in the trailer when walking or moving about in said trailer unless it something like a motor home which is a whole nuther ball of wax.

vtraudt wrote:
I do NOT like to drive onto (2x6, lego blocks, curvy plastic thingies, etc). I rather put the trailer exactly where I want it, THEN do all the leveling. Front/back leveling with the front A frame jack is no issue.

WHY?

Extremely easy to setup using blocking under the wheels to level.

Park in your desired spot.

Pull forward 5 ft (or the length of your boards), place boards behind the trailer wheels.

Backup on top of the boards.

You will get within several inches of your desired spot and be level.

vtraudt wrote:
For side to side, I would like to add scissor jacks on (or near, 3/4 points, else) the main frame at each corner. From this weeks stay, it seems that most (all?) not so new trailers have just that. I watched dozens setting up (some with hand crank, some with power drill/impact).

My trailer has a max weight of 7000 lbs.
The main rails are one piece, going from front to back (no welds, no steps).

a) is it ok to 'lift' at the ends or near the ends of the main rails?
b) with theoretically 1/2 of the weight (3500 lbs) on one jack, should I pick 3500 lbs jacks, or go even higher?

I am not sure yet if I will permanently mount (if it works, I likely will), either weld on or bolt on (only reason not to would be weight/inertia added to the rear.

Also, if it works, I would REMOVE the electric stabilizers (the jacks will level AND stabilize) and maybe use the MOTORS (2 on hand. would by 2 more) and add 2 more switches for 'electric' leveling (not AUTO leveling).

Does someone have experience with this modification?
Concerns, suggestions, ideas?

A) NO, not "OK" to lift all the weight at the ends of the frame.

Frame and the box on top of the frame are designed and built for all the weight to bear down on the axles, lifting trailer at the ends will flex the frame and the box on top in ways that it shouldn't be flexed. You might not see the damage immediately but repeated extreme flexing has the potential to rip the bolts holding the box on top right through the wood framing of the floor.

B) You are on your own on this but I would think about a jack that can handle MORE than "half the load" would be a better choice because there is a good chance one jack will end up taking more weight than the other. Just way to unpredictable of a setup so erroring on the safer side should always be the rule of the day.

Something else you are missing, if you lift the trailer enough that the wheels loose contact with the ground, how are you planning to keep the trailer from moving forward and backwards????

Effectively you are removing the safety of chocking your wheels, wheel chocks are a very important safety item, only chock one side of trailer and now you have a good chance that the trailer can pivot and turn and you measly little jacks cannot stop that from happening.

If blocking under the wheels is not your cup o tea, then perhaps rethink your RV choice, perhaps a motor home with hydraulic jacks is the way you need to go.. They are designed to be able to be lifted off the ground via jacks.

[JRscooby]

Main reason I could see is frame flex causing damage to house. I would think planning and education would be a simpler solution.
Find a level spot (side to side) Mount a level on front, with bubble on center. Now lay 1 of your blocks next to tires on 1 side. Put a chock behind tire on other side. Pull out so tire is just clear the ramp, slide ramp behind tire, and back up to chock. Mark where bubble is. Repeat with 2, then 3 high ramp, then same on other side.
Now you have the level marked so you know how high the ramp needs to be when you get camper where you want it, build the ramp beside low tire, chock behind high. Pull up, move ramp sideways, and put trailer back where you want it.
If you don't want to calibrate the level on front of trailer you can lay a 2 ft whiskey stick on the floor. Lift the end to center bubble, then measure from end to floor. For each half inch add a 2X10 to your stack.

[BB_TX]

Stabilizers are not meant to be levelers. Putting upward force on individual points on the frame to raise it could cause some twisting of the frame. Best to stay with putting something under the wheels for side to side leveling.

The front jack is designed for leveling and connected to the frame accordingly.