Apache Camping, Everett, Washington

[214skier]

We live in the greater Seattle area and bought a 2014 OutdoorsRV TimberRidge 270DBHS from a dealer in Boise, Idaho. We did this because the price was 34% less than the best we could get from Apache (the OutdoorsRV dealer in Everett).

Upon getting our rig home, we found some warranty issues (minor). We also want to buy some items including awning, filtration system etc. We called Apache Camping in Everett, Washington to schedule an appointment. We were told by the receptionist and the service manager, “We do not take appointments from people who are not our customers.”

I am shocked to say the least. Were we really suppose to spend more than $10k at their dealer just for the privilege? It is not our fault they are not competitive. Furthermore, if you loose the sale, why not EARN the service? Clearly there is revenue opportunity in service & accessories; not the least, managing your reputation in the market.

Extremely disappointed with the naive and sophomoric business practice. The only solstice in this experience is the fact that practice like this will lead to their demise.

Now to start our lobby efforts with OutdoorsRV.

[Leo_Smith]

I have purchased a used trailer from Apache Camping Center and have used them for service. When I purchaser my next trailer (new) , I will seriously consider going with Apache again. I have found them to be fair and be straight shooters.

[Pangaea_Ron]

Francesca

You've made some bad assumptions here. I'm personally very familiar with the specifics of this situation.

matt_r has presented his ACTUAL experience(s) here for us to be aware of.

[path1]

matt_r wrote:

Francesca Knowles wrote:

matt_r wrote:
They where angry when they learned what we were getting and could not come within 30% of the price. I completely understand there reluctance to match what was clearly a “loss leader” for the dealer we purchased. At no time did they threaten to not service the out-of-state rig at the time of transaction. It was not until we attempted to schedule our first appointment.

And this was a surprise to you?

This is the second time you've told us that negotiations were so tense that they were actually "angry" with you. Hardly sounds like you went out of your way to evolve a friendly relationship with them to begin with. Why on earth would you expect them to greet you with open arms when you needed warranty work? Especially given that history, might it not be reasonable for them to expect that you might be more trouble during any other process they're involved in with you?

I'm skeptical that any generalities about Apache's willingness (or not) to service rigs not purchased there can be made in this case. I think it's more likely that they just don't want you yourself for a customer.

You assume a lot.

I understood this forum as a place to share information which I am doing. Its not a trial. I don’t appreciate or welcome your judgement. Particularly as off base as it is.

I understood this forum as a place to share information which I am doing.

Here is some info to share. About 15-20 years ago our state was considering a drivers license endorsement for RV's. Sort of like a motorcycle endorsement. A simple written test that goes over the basics. And I'm not for more gov't but a simple test might help some folks be safer for them or anybody on the road with them. Many times a person that buys a RV it might be the first oversize vehicle they ever drove in their life.

The WA state RV dealers assoc convinced our state capitol that the state would lose tax $$ because of lower sales. Bill did not make it.

But did provide another example to me of what RV dealers and our state gov value more.

[214skier]

Francesca Knowles wrote:

matt_r wrote:
They where angry when they learned what we were getting and could not come within 30% of the price. I completely understand there reluctance to match what was clearly a “loss leader” for the dealer we purchased. At no time did they threaten to not service the out-of-state rig at the time of transaction. It was not until we attempted to schedule our first appointment.

And this was a surprise to you?

This is the second time you've told us that negotiations were so tense that they were actually "angry" with you. Hardly sounds like you went out of your way to evolve a friendly relationship with them to begin with. Why on earth would you expect them to greet you with open arms when you needed warranty work? Especially given that history, might it not be reasonable for them to expect that you might be more trouble during any other process they're involved in with you?

I'm skeptical that any generalities about Apache's willingness (or not) to service rigs not purchased there can be made in this case. I think it's more likely that they just don't want you yourself for a customer.

You assume a lot.

I understood this forum as a place to share information which I am doing. Its not a trial. I don’t appreciate or welcome your judgement. Particularly as off base as it is.

[Francesca_Knowl]

matt_r wrote:
They where angry when they learned what we were getting and could not come within 30% of the price. I completely understand there reluctance to match what was clearly a “loss leader” for the dealer we purchased. At no time did they threaten to not service the out-of-state rig at the time of transaction. It was not until we attempted to schedule our first appointment.

And this was a surprise to you?

This is the second time you've told us that negotiations were so tense that they were actually "angry" with you. Hardly sounds like you went out of your way to evolve a friendly relationship with them to begin with. Why on earth would you expect them to greet you with open arms when you needed warranty work? Especially given that history, might it not be reasonable for them to expect that you might be more trouble during any other process they're involved in with you?

I'm skeptical that any generalities about Apache's willingness (or not) to service rigs not purchased there can be made in this case. I think it's more likely that they just don't want you yourself for a customer.

[214skier]

Pinstriper wrote:
We shopped the dealers for our TT.

I contacted a dealer up in Seattle-ish, told them I was price comparing, and to please give me their best price so I could decide whether to make the trip up there or buy locally. They gave me a good price, I took it to the local dealer and said "I want to buy locally, I intend to use you for my service either way. Give me a reason not to go up there."

The local dealer didn't match the price, but came within $700 of them (on a ~$30k trailer). Close enough. I bought local.

I was transparent from the front with both dealers. My local never said anything about not being willing to service it if we didn't buy from them. Whether they would have dropped that on me later is, I guess, open to speculation.

Anyway, I think Apache's practice is pretty shortsighted and even spiteful. Many dealers of the same brands and line just don't have the exact unit you are looking for and you often couldn't buy from them in the first place. Makes no sense.

We where entirely transparent with Apache as well. We gave them one last shot to come close to the price we were getting out of state. They where angry when they learned what we were getting and could not come within 30% of the price. I completely understand there reluctance to match what was clearly a “loss leader” for the dealer we purchased. At no time did they threaten to not service the out-of-state rig at the time of transaction. It was not until we attempted to schedule our first appointment.

[Pinstriper]

We shopped the dealers for our TT.

I contacted a dealer up in Seattle-ish, told them I was price comparing, and to please give me their best price so I could decide whether to make the trip up there or buy locally. They gave me a good price, I took it to the local dealer and said "I want to buy locally, I intend to use you for my service either way. Give me a reason not to go up there."

The local dealer didn't match the price, but came within $700 of them (on a ~$30k trailer). Close enough. I bought local.

I was transparent from the front with both dealers. My local never said anything about not being willing to service it if we didn't buy from them. Whether they would have dropped that on me later is, I guess, open to speculation.

Anyway, I think Apache's practice is pretty shortsighted and even spiteful. Many dealers of the same brands and line just don't have the exact unit you are looking for and you often couldn't buy from them in the first place. Makes no sense.

[brholt]

I would just note that I have bought two units from Apache and had excellent service from them on both. In fact one of the reasons I bought my second unit from them was the excellent service I received on the first one and they haven't disappointed me on the second. They have taken good care of me, squeezing me in for work even though they were fully booked, and I would recommend purchasing from them to anyone. Others have had similar experience with them in their purchases - take a look in the truck camper sections for some of the things they have done to help purchasers.

I did not know about it but I am not too surprised about their policy of not doing warranty work on units not purchased there. They are already very busy in summer and I know that even though they are one of the biggest Northwood dealers they are not fully reimbursed for warranty work (let alone make a profit). I suspect Outdoor RV has similar reimbursement rates.

One can argue if their policy of only taking care of their own customers for warranty work is the right one or not but it seems to work for them as they have been in business for a long time.

Having said all of that I certainly understand you buying elsewhere to save the money you did. I too have heard good things about the quality of the work from Evergreen RV.

Good luck

[214skier]

dodge guy wrote:
How does the dealer know in one phone call if you didn`t just move within the last year or 2. what if you moved and you needed service? without even asking, the dealer is going to say "too bad!" because you didn`t buy from them without even knowing any details.

Yes that is bad business practice!

Great point. In our case, we stated up front we just bought the rig from Idaho and had some warranty issues. We probably should have been more oblique about that fact. We never dreamed that would be their response.

[dodge_guy]

How does the dealer know in one phone call if you didn`t just move within the last year or 2. what if you moved and you needed service? without even asking, the dealer is going to say "too bad!" because you didn`t buy from them without even knowing any details.

Yes that is bad business practice!

[RedRocket204]

matt_r wrote:
The RV dealer game is one of relationship and service. This is driven by the reality that purchase frequency of RVs are much lower than cars. This means the primary game is selling accessories and servicing / repairs--

Will add that the accessories and paid for service are higher margin items that they should be selling at a higher volume too. If a dealer chooses to not sell accessories, that's their business model they chose.

Way too many businesses have lost sight of proper customer/business relationship which will lead to constant future business. I choose to do local business when I can even if the prices are higher (not outrageously higher mind you) as I value what local businesses bring to the community.

I do not blame you for never wanting to spend a dime at Apache Camping after their response to you. For Apache Camping, must be nice to have so much business that you turn away potential customers. Apache Camping better hope their "so much business" never drops off.

[214skier]

PawPaw_n_Gram wrote:

matt_r wrote:
The RV dealer game is one of relationship and service. This is driven by the reality that purchase frequency of RVs are much lower than cars.

For most dealers it is not. The business model is selling the unit and getting it off the lot - hopefully to never see it again until the customer wants a trade-in.

As mentioned above - automobiles are a completely different business model where the dealer makes good money off warranty repairs.

For many RV dealers - warranty repairs are a heavy up front cost, very slow reimbursement, multiple vendor relationships, an almost non-existent replacement parts inventory.

If the radio goes out in your Ford - the Ford dealer replaces it, and Ford provides the parts and pays promptly for the repairs.

If the radio goes out in your RV - the manufacturer tells the dealer to talk to the company which made the radio. Since one week's run of RVs may have brand X radio, and the next week's run of RVs may have brand Y radio - it's a lot of work for the dealer to track down the right vendor.

The fridge, the cooktop, the TV, the microwave, the AC, the furnace, the hot water heater, the frame, the axles, the jacks, the tongue jack, the TV antenna, the awning, the wheels - all are from different vendors. None of the warranty work for those items is reimbursed by the RV manufacturer to the dealer.

Another difference. If the Ford dealer finds something wrong - they replace it and bill Ford. If the RV dealer finds something wrong, they have to get approval for warranty work before getting approval for any spare parts. If the vendor says 'not our problem' then the dealer has to eat the diagnostic labor.

matt_r wrote:
This means the primary game is selling accessories and servicing / repairs--fighting to maintain some kind of monopoly on the sale when you can not be price competitive is a sinking and loosing battle.

Some dealers choose to maintain an active service department focused on selling and installing accessories, some do not. That's their choice.

I purchased my first TT from a dealer who makes a lot of money on accessory sales and installation. They keep a full shop busy mostly with this addon type work. Enough activity so that they can afford to float all the costs of doing a lot of warranty work. They can even afford a small inventory of key spare parts (all of which have to be purchased from the various vendors up front).

The dealer I purchased my current TT from does minimal accessory work. They don't even sell accessories or addon's. Hitches and the unit the way it arrived on their lot is all they sell. They showed me the cheap sewer hose in the FR supplied accessory kit and actually said "This is a piece of junk, we recommend you stop at ____ down the road and buy a good sewer hose from their accessory store."

____ is a smaller dealer which sells a different manufacturer TT/5er but does have a very complete small accessory store.

If I wanted a slide topper awning - the dealer I purchased my current TT from would install it - for a fee. But I'd have to buy the awning somewhere else and bring it to them to install.

Surprisingly, the company I purchased this TT from has 8 locations across Texas, and sells 4,500-5,000 new TT & 5ers a year - all with the same no accessory sales, we don't service anything we didn't sell policy. They sell very few used units - sending most trade-ins out to auction after a week on the lot.

The company where I purchased my first TT recently purchased their second location. They sell about 500-700 new units per year and more than that used.

I've met both owners. Both are happy, and both make good money, take care of their employees. Both companies have good reputations. But you have to know and understand how they operate on completely different business models.

Thank you for the perspective. I get it and understand.

My issue at this point is now with the manufacturer. Its up to Outdoors RV to provide a suitable dealership for me to get warranty work completed. Hopefully the service and competence will be enough to earn future repair work. Hopefully they become the source for accessories. When we are ready to upgrade, we will give that dealer first shot at our sales business.

In the meantime, if Outdoors RV intends to build a world-class brand of RV, I hope they take punitive action in some form against dealers who provide the response that this one did.

[PawPaw_n_Gram]

matt_r wrote:
The RV dealer game is one of relationship and service. This is driven by the reality that purchase frequency of RVs are much lower than cars.

For most dealers it is not. The business model is selling the unit and getting it off the lot - hopefully to never see it again until the customer wants a trade-in.

As mentioned above - automobiles are a completely different business model where the dealer makes good money off warranty repairs.

For many RV dealers - warranty repairs are a heavy up front cost, very slow reimbursement, multiple vendor relationships, an almost non-existent replacement parts inventory.

If the radio goes out in your Ford - the Ford dealer replaces it, and Ford provides the parts and pays promptly for the repairs.

If the radio goes out in your RV - the manufacturer tells the dealer to talk to the company which made the radio. Since one week's run of RVs may have brand X radio, and the next week's run of RVs may have brand Y radio - it's a lot of work for the dealer to track down the right vendor.

The fridge, the cooktop, the TV, the microwave, the AC, the furnace, the hot water heater, the frame, the axles, the jacks, the tongue jack, the TV antenna, the awning, the wheels - all are from different vendors. None of the warranty work for those items is reimbursed by the RV manufacturer to the dealer.

Another difference. If the Ford dealer finds something wrong - they replace it and bill Ford. If the RV dealer finds something wrong, they have to get approval for warranty work before getting approval for any spare parts. If the vendor says 'not our problem' then the dealer has to eat the diagnostic labor.

matt_r wrote:
This means the primary game is selling accessories and servicing / repairs--fighting to maintain some kind of monopoly on the sale when you can not be price competitive is a sinking and loosing battle.

Some dealers choose to maintain an active service department focused on selling and installing accessories, some do not. That's their choice.

I purchased my first TT from a dealer who makes a lot of money on accessory sales and installation. They keep a full shop busy mostly with this addon type work. Enough activity so that they can afford to float all the costs of doing a lot of warranty work. They can even afford a small inventory of key spare parts (all of which have to be purchased from the various vendors up front).

The dealer I purchased my current TT from does minimal accessory work. They don't even sell accessories or addon's. Hitches and the unit the way it arrived on their lot is all they sell. They showed me the cheap sewer hose in the FR supplied accessory kit and actually said "This is a piece of junk, we recommend you stop at ____ down the road and buy a good sewer hose from their accessory store."

____ is a smaller dealer which sells a different manufacturer TT/5er but does have a very complete small accessory store.

If I wanted a slide topper awning - the dealer I purchased my current TT from would install it - for a fee. But I'd have to buy the awning somewhere else and bring it to them to install.

Surprisingly, the company I purchased this TT from has 8 locations across Texas, and sells 4,500-5,000 new TT & 5ers a year - all with the same no accessory sales, we don't service anything we didn't sell policy. They sell very few used units - sending most trade-ins out to auction after a week on the lot.

The company where I purchased my first TT recently purchased their second location. They sell about 500-700 new units per year and more than that used.

I've met both owners. Both are happy, and both make good money, take care of their employees. Both companies have good reputations. But you have to know and understand how they operate on completely different business models.

[HGL]

Matt,

Glad to hear you have had a good outcome. Let us know how evergreen does as I will need to find someplace closer to home.