Brake Upgrade 2012 F250

[travisgsf]

I want to upgrade my brakes for better stopping power and better feel. Any thoughts as to what's the best route? I'm willing to change whatever I need to not just the pads. Thanks

[wintersun]

Check the performance truck magazines or search online for replacement calipers or complete brake kits. I upgraded the brakes on my 1998 Chevy Tahoe and it made a world of difference. The OEM rotors were too warped at 32,000 miles to be turned and the brakes overall were terrible. The new rotors and calipers never needed work for the next 140,000 miles I put on the SUV.

GM upgraded the brakes on the 1999 models as they knew that what they had engineered was marginal at best.

[patperry2766]

hub centric rims

Since the problem started with the factory tires and wheels, this probably won't have any effect on the mushy brake feel, but it is something to keep in mind if you eventually have an alignment issue/wobble or out of balance issue.

[Gdetrailer]

travisgsf wrote:

patperry2766 wrote:
After 4 pages of posts, no one has asked:

#1. Is this a relatively new problem, or has the "mushy" feeling been present since you have owned the truck?

The truck has 30k miles. I'd say at about 20k miles is when I started noticing it. When towing I really notice it.

#2. You have 20" rims. Were the 20" from the factory, or if you replaced the rims/tires yourself, did you notice the mushy brake feel with the factory supplied rims/tires?

The truck had stock 20" rims but I chagne to aftermarket 20" rims at 25k miles

#3. Have you taken it back to the dealership? While brake pads are considered normal wear items and won't be covered under warranty, you might have a problem with something else that needs to be repaired/replaced

My next step is to take it to the dealer. At every maintenance check I have them check the brakes. They always say the pads are ok but I need to have them check further.

#4 What are you comparing the "mushy" feeling braking characteristics to, vehicle wise? What might be normal for a Ford would be a different feeling to someone use to driving a Chevy, Dodge etc....or the braking feel can even be different feeling from within the same manufacturers vehicle line-up

I've only had Ford trucks. I'm mostly comparing to how it used to be when the truck was newer. It seems and though they've gotten progressively more mushy as I've owned the truck.

Responses are written above. Thanks.

Since you STARTED out with good brakes when new I would recommend you have the brake pads checked to see if they have gotten stuck in the calipers..

This is a problem I have had with my 2003 and 2006 F250s.. The brake pads are entirely too tight of a fit in the calipers.. They work fine when new but over time the caliper AND brake pads develop severe rusting in the grooves and the pad ears.

Eventually the pads wear down a bit and the rust prevents the pads from moving towards the rotor.. Basically you are left with very little brakes and the pedal does not feel correct..

The "soft pedal" feeling you may be getting may be from the calipers flexing (and possibly expanding the rubber brake hoses also) as you have to press harder on the brake pedal than normal.

Even brand new pads fit very tight, so tight that it takes a hammer to put them in the caliper slots.. So you often have to file or grind them to fit correctly..

My fix to this is to remove the pads, grind or file the pad ears that fit into the caliper grooves. Take a small amount off each time until the pads slide fairly easily in the grooves with a light touch (you don't want too loose or they will rattle).

Rusting is a well known problem and I can tell you if it hasn't done it yet, IT WILL be soon..

If you fail to fix too tight of pads it will wear out one of the pads too fast and potentially ruin the rotor..

I am doubtful that you will find a Ford dealer (and your brakes may be still under warranty) which is going to be willing to refit tight pads so you may need to do yourself or find a independent mechanic who will be willing to look at it for you.

[Gdetrailer]

BenK wrote:

travisgsf wrote:
I have no idea what hydro boosting is so I've never done anything with that

Diesel has no venturi in it's intake system to create the vacuum for
the half ton or lower's vacuum boosted brake system

A hydroboost system is used where the assist is from a high pressure
fluid. Like the power steering pump system

Hydroboost develops higher pressures than vacuum boosters do. They can
make a vacuum booster with equal or even higher, but then the dia of
the diaphragm would be large and/or many diaphragms in series would be
needed

I believe 2012 F250 6.7 should NOT have hydroboost.. Ford went back to some sort of vacuum booster, perhaps they have some sort of vacuum pump which can supply enough vacuum.. I know they used to use a electric vacuum pump with a diesel for other accessories which needed vacuum.

F350 with 6.7 may still have it though..

Gassers do not have it.

Some info on it HERE

[BenK]

travisgsf wrote:
I have no idea what hydro boosting is so I've never done anything with that

Diesel has no venturi in it's intake system to create the vacuum for
the half ton or lower's vacuum boosted brake system

A hydroboost system is used where the assist is from a high pressure
fluid. Like the power steering pump system

Hydroboost develops higher pressures than vacuum boosters do. They can
make a vacuum booster with equal or even higher, but then the dia of
the diaphragm would be large and/or many diaphragms in series would be
needed

[travisgsf]

patperry2766 wrote:
After 4 pages of posts, no one has asked:

#1. Is this a relatively new problem, or has the "mushy" feeling been present since you have owned the truck?

The truck has 30k miles. I'd say at about 20k miles is when I started noticing it. When towing I really notice it.

#2. You have 20" rims. Were the 20" from the factory, or if you replaced the rims/tires yourself, did you notice the mushy brake feel with the factory supplied rims/tires?

The truck had stock 20" rims but I chagne to aftermarket 20" rims at 25k miles

#3. Have you taken it back to the dealership? While brake pads are considered normal wear items and won't be covered under warranty, you might have a problem with something else that needs to be repaired/replaced

My next step is to take it to the dealer. At every maintenance check I have them check the brakes. They always say the pads are ok but I need to have them check further.

#4 What are you comparing the "mushy" feeling braking characteristics to, vehicle wise? What might be normal for a Ford would be a different feeling to someone use to driving a Chevy, Dodge etc....or the braking feel can even be different feeling from within the same manufacturers vehicle line-up

I've only had Ford trucks. I'm mostly comparing to how it used to be when the truck was newer. It seems and though they've gotten progressively more mushy as I've owned the truck.

Responses are written above. Thanks.

[patperry2766]

After 4 pages of posts, no one has asked:

#1. Is this a relatively new problem, or has the "mushy" feeling been present since you have owned the truck?

#2. You have 20" rims. Were the 20" from the factory, or if you replaced the rims/tires yourself, did you notice the mushy brake feel with the factory supplied rims/tires?

#3. Have you taken it back to the dealership? While brake pads are considered normal wear items and won't be covered under warranty, you might have a problem with something else that needs to be repaired/replaced

#4 What are you comparing the "mushy" feeling braking characteristics to, vehicle wise? What might be normal for a Ford would be a different feeling to someone use to driving a Chevy, Dodge etc....or the braking feel can even be different feeling from within the same manufacturers vehicle line-up

[Lynnmor]

travisgsf wrote:
I have no idea what hydro boosting is so I've never done anything with that

I believe that you have vacuum boost, not hydro.

[DirtyOil]

You may want to try Stillen Performance they have a kit that may help you out.... pricey though! check em out: http://www.stillen.com/products/brake-kits/6piston-rt-brake-kit-by-stillen-100207/

then you can thumb yer nose at the "nay sayers" :W

[travisgsf]

I have no idea what hydro boosting is so I've never done anything with that

[BenK]

travisgsf wrote:
My truck has 20s and aftermarket tires. No lift

That extra weight of any over sized dia has more centrifugal force, which
then requires more braking force to slow/stop them

More so if they are forged, they generally are heavier than cast alloys. Even more so with low aspect ratio E class tires. More so
if they are very wide. Both more aluminum out there and the tread of
a low aspect ratio with a wide section width.

All that extra weight has much, much more fly wheel than a smaller
dia and narrower wheel/tire

Good not lifted, as some after market kits have El Cheapo brake hoses
to reach farther than OEM hoses

Ah...missed that you have a diesel...with hydroboost braking.

When was the last time you flushed the power steering pump system?
On GM's, the hydrobooster runs off of power steering fluid system

My 1996 K3500 Sub's hydrobooster started to get 'soft' and changed
it out around 1999/2000. Have your hydrobooster & pump checked out

[coolbreeze01]

travisgsf wrote:
My truck has 20s and aftermarket tires. No lift

Then this will work.

[travisgsf]

My truck has 20s and aftermarket tires. No lift

[BenK]

Braking performance is more important to me than go power...and braking
is a performance criteria

There is much more to it than just the ability to initiate ABS and/or
skid the tires

Many of today's vehicles can NOT initiate ABS at will

The tires are only one limiting component. Its tread type, actual
traction ability, the circumstances, vehicle size/weight/etc, braking
system: components/sub-systems/friction materials/etc

The friction material specification...it's performance curves with
FPM, temp (ambient, cast iron surface, friction material and on that
the ranges thoughout the 'thickness' or 'mass' of those components),
PSI, flexure, hardness, out-gas routing, etc matters

The thermal management characteristics of all. Mainly thermal inertia
of both the metal and friction material. Inertia as in enough mass to
draw in the heat quickly, hold it to reject it via surface radiation/
convection and/or conduction (why some disc/hub assemblies has heat
dams to keep from over heating the bearings in the hub)

All of that boils down to modulation and that is factored by temp
and PSI

"Better feel" is one of the OP's comments and some of the advice so
far is good. There is a potential for the caliper to bend at the
bridge between the piston side and anvil side (GM's GMT400's were/are
horrible in that regard and is the main issue with that era's bad
braking)

"Better feel's" food chain begins there, at the caliper. The hoses
and tubing are next. From tubing too large in dia to the hoses aging
to balloon. In older designs, the welded to frame rail brackets pinched
off the hoses when the brackets rusted. That then either or both felt
'soft' as it built up PSI to get past that blockage/pinch...to holding
PSI to over heat the calipers

Why performance hoses do better. They have a better molded in spiral
wire to keep the hose from ballooning as much as lower grade hoses.
Mostly sold with external surface SS woven braid

Up at the MC...I'd ask if this vehicle has the integrated trailer
brake controller? Most OEM trailer brakes has their input sense via
MC PSI. It can leak PSI(my experience in controls for steel forming
had my hydraulic systems weakest link the PSI sensor) at the sensor.
Not leak fluid, or much fluid to be noticeable, but leak into the
electronics area. Even up the wires insulation...note that some folks
mess up their new O2 sensor by closing off the ambient O2 source the
the sensor uses for reference...by crimping a new lug on the O2 wires
It gets the external reference O2 via the wire

There might be a tiny, tiny leak in one of the brake line runs. Or
at a junction. Not enough to leak out enough to notice, but enough to
allow a tiny, tiny bit of fluid out and moisture & air in. That will
make the pedal feel 'soft'. It can even seal itself. Been there done
that with the Dune Buggy I made.

If the rotors have been turned too often and/or they took too much off
the friction surface maybe too thin and allows the 'plates' to deform
into the centrifugal vane areas when hot. Thinning reduces the disc's
ability to move heat to the centrifugal fins and at times feels like
warped rotors

Going to after market, multi piston calipers, etc will increase your
up front cost and maintenance costs. Most require you to buy replacement
pads from them. They are not cheap, but well worth it, IMHO. Careful
on that, as multi piston will require more fluid flow and some MCs
will not supply enough. The hydraulic ratios between the MC's bores
and calipers bores may not match and the pedal will go farther down
than with OEM.




Maintenance...

When was the last time your braking system was flushed? Including
the ABS system, but that doesn't need to be done as often

What kind of brake fluid? Bryan's suggestion of DOT 5.1 is good and
make sure it is *NOT* silicone based

What kind of friction material? If 'performance' or 'race', they they
will perform poorly when cold...until whatever temp they come on

Allowing the friction material to get too thin will also brake poorly
They will transmit heat quickly to the pistons, and the fluid. They
will also heat up quickly to out-gas and float the friction material
off the disc

What did you or the brake mechanic do to the calipers the last time
you had friction material changed (pads)? Unless you have fixed calipers,
most OEM calipers are single piston and not fixed. They 'float' to
keep centered as the pads wear. That has slides that the caliper
floats on to center.

Many times, the brake mechanics do NOT either replace with new, or
rebuild well.

Even a sticking caliper will display these issues.



Oh, assuming stock and no after market modifications and no 20's, right?

[Gdetrailer]

shepstone wrote:
The Super Duty went to larger brakes in 2013 maybe the parts are interchangeable?

Correct.

However do be careful of what you wish for.. Ford did indeed "upgrade" the brakes on the 2013 F250/350.. This was in response to complaints from 2011/2012 owners concerning weak brakes, not feeling strong or rather sluggish..

However driving empty my 2013 brakes are often over the top way to sensitive or "strong" and if you are not careful it is easy to plant your face in the windshield.. Takes a very light foot on the brakes when empty and changing vehicles back and forth can be a bit of a challenge..

Not sure what the changes really are, it could be MC, wheel cylinders, brake pads or rotors.. But something is different from what I have read..

Loaded, they work perfectly fine and respond correctly :h

Perhaps if you have the time have a autoparts place look up the parts and see what if anything in the entire brake system is the same and what isn't the same from 2012 to 2013..