Can someone explain this?

[ShinerBock]

Well I guess that everyone checked out of the thread where I posted this because no one seemed to answer it and the thread died shortly there after(unless no one had an answer). So here is to hoping that a new thread will get new looks and maybe an explanation.

Can someone explain this? This F350 has a lower front GAWR, lower rear GAWR, and lower combined GAWR yet has a higher GVWR than my 2500. Kind of goes along with what I have been saying about some(not all) class 2B(250/2500) diesel trucks are de-rated due EPA and federal max GVWR numbers of their class rather than their actual carrying ability, but I would love to hear anyone else's explanation or guess.


2017 F350
Front GAWR: 5,600
Rear GAWR: 6,340
Combined GAWR: 11,940
GVWR: 11,500





My 2014 Ram 2500
Front GAWR: 6,000
Rear GAWR: 6,500
Combined GAWR: 12,500
GVWR: 10,000





I can see how this GM 3500 got its 11,500 GVWR rating even though it has a lower front GAWR then mine. The Ram 3500 SRW has just about the same rating, but with a 6,000 front GAWR and a 7,000 rear GAWR.

2018 GM 3500
Front GAWR: 5,600
Rear GAWR: 7,050
Combined GAWR: 12,650
GVWR: 11,500

[ShinerBock]

Sent my question to the guys over at TFL. This is how they answered it (sort of). LINK

[NRALIFR]

ShinerBock wrote:
Nope, it is not BS. I, the manufacturer, purposely de-rated a class 7 & 8 trucks with a class 6 GVWR. Very similar to how Ford de-rates certain class 3 F350's to fit into s class 2B GVWR, how they de-rated the class 4 F450 (pick-up only) to fit into a class 3 GVWR, and how they will de-rate certain class 7 F750's to fit into a class 6 GVWR. It really does happen more than you think especially in the medium and heavy duty industry.

That’s exactly what I think was done with the 2015-2016 F450 pickups. They were in every way that mattered identical to the 2008-2010 F450’s, and could have retained the class 4 GVWR.

For reasons unknown to me, they WANTED it to be a class 3 truck. I’d bet money the reasons involved some marketing types whining about how the F450 pickup was stealing sales from the F450 cab and chassis.

In some states it may also make the truck easier to register and insure, but I didn’t have that problem.

Of course now you have the “problem” of being able to configure an F350 with a higher (on-paper) payload than the F450.

:):)

[mich800]

ShinerBock wrote:

nickthehunter wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

nickthehunter wrote:
I’ll tell him (hopefully once he hears it he’ll be done).
Shiner - you are indeed smarter than the manufacturers. The manufacturer’s engineers are stupid and know nothing about the products they are designing. You indeed have figured it out and everyone here should ignore the manufacturer’s ratings and go by the “Sihiner Ratings” instead.

Actually I used to work for said manufactures and on the dealership level for over 20 years now. One of my jobs throughout those years was to spec out trucks for our medium and heavy duty customers to ensure they were well within their axle ratings and legal for what they were using their truck for.

It was not uncommon to take a class 7 or 8 truck and de-rate it for a customer to class 6 so they did not have to pay higher registration costs. Many of these customers only needed the class 7 or 8 capabilities off road and were generally empty on road. So yeah, I know how common it is to de-rate a trucks GVWR even though the truck itself can handle more just for registration purposes.

BS - the only thing they did was register it at less than it’s GVWR, it still had the same GVWR as set by the manufacturer regardless of what the license plate said. Nothing was derated.

Nope, it is not BS. I, the manufacturer, purposely de-rated a class 7 & 8 trucks with a class 6 GVWR. Very similar to how Ford de-rates certain class 3 F350's to fit into s class 2B GVWR, how they de-rated the class 4 F450 (pick-up only) to fit into a class 3 GVWR, and how they will de-rate certain class 7 F750's to fit into a class 6 GVWR. It really does happen more than you think especially in the medium and heavy duty industry.

If the 10k GVWR F350 does not illustrate this point enough for some to understand you are wasting your time in this debate.

[MFL]

Well, I'll go first...this is an old picture from early 90s. In the truck bed...a GoldWing, with fairing removed (in camper) a dirt bike on each side of Wing, and filled in all spaces around them with gear. Next, with truck sagging badly, I hooked up the TT. No problem, after installing bars on WDH, I was good to go. Over weight... don't know, maybe, didn't matter, got me there and back.

Jerry

[MFL]

Yes...pic Grit Dog, or you are just BSing us with that overload!

Jerry

[blt2ski]

Me Again wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
Meh, there's a few peeps on here that would need a quick trip to the ER for an AED if they saw what was hooked to my 1500 Silvy in the driveway for a trip over Chinook and Cayuse Pass in the morning!

It's ok though. Truck may look like a 1/2 ton but it identifies as a 2500! It's ok to do that here in liberal WA!

Oh come on, post a picture so the RV NET Weight Police can weight in.

My sons trucks, one a Toyota Tacoma ext cab, other a Chev 1500 are both licensed at 8000 lbs. Same as my C2500. All three can go down the road at 8000 lbs and be legal. Reality is, those two can go down the road heavier than I can, as they have wider tires, so they can displace more weight from a point load to the road stand point. WHICH is what the weight police enforce! point loads to the road bed, so as to not destroy the roads we the people own, pay taxes on etc. THAT is the engineer based requirement we ALL have to obide by!
Chris, I know you know that, I believe Grit Dog knows that, and a few others.......there is a few that do not understand it, nor will probably EVER get their head wrapped around how the weight laws really work!

marty

[blt2ski]

As on CVEO said in a class I took on what is / is not legal weight wise here in Wa St. Manufactures warranty ratings are performance ratings, for warranty purposes ONLY! What matters, is you are paid for to the total GVW that you are running down the road at! Axel loads are the key also. You can be under a gvw, over an axel load, and be overweight, get ticketed accordingly.
If you want to run down the road at 100K lbs total, with my old 76 Toyota, it would be legal weight wise...... depending upon how else you had things connected etc, you might be illegal otherwise! They have many many ways of getting an unsafe rig off the road. Weight is not usually what gets one in trouble.
I could go thru a list of items that will get you in trouble worst than weight! Like a battery that is used to get brakes working if disconnected from tow rig. If you use your house batteries, and you were using them all night for heat etc. you get pulled over and they are under 11.5V, you have a failed braking system! That goes against your license, vs weight is a non moving violation, and does not follow you. You can not move until the batteries meet the 11.5+V measurement.
If your brakes on the trailer will not hold your truck starting out in first gear, or at least are not locked up, you have a failed braking system. You can not move your rig until the brakes work on the trailer.
I can go on and on on how you can get yourself in trouble, All of these latter issues, again, go against your driving record, insurance etc. DO NOT WORRY about weight amounts! assuming you have a paid for license above what you weight. Even then, like in my case a few times, where I was 500-1000 over, I got a 10 day up the license by a ton, $15 more in registration fees. Whooooppy doooo! I continue on my way down the road! I will also point out, I was under the axel weight limits for my truck(s) and trailer(s).

Marty

[Me_Again]

Grit dog wrote:
Meh, there's a few peeps on here that would need a quick trip to the ER for an AED if they saw what was hooked to my 1500 Silvy in the driveway for a trip over Chinook and Cayuse Pass in the morning!

It's ok though. Truck may look like a 1/2 ton but it identifies as a 2500! It's ok to do that here in liberal WA!

Oh come on, post a picture so the RV NET Weight Police can weight in.

[Grit_dog]

Meh, there's a few peeps on here that would need a quick trip to the ER for an AED if they saw what was hooked to my 1500 Silvy in the driveway for a trip over Chinook and Cayuse Pass in the morning!

It's ok though. Truck may look like a 1/2 ton but it identifies as a 2500! It's ok to do that here in liberal WA!

[ShinerBock]

Or like my father in laws previous 2003 F350 which had a 9,900 GVWR, but a 6,750 rear GAWR. He went over his GVWR all the time, but bever cam close to his GAWR.

Although, all SRW 350/3500 trucks prior to 2007-2010(depending on the make) were in the same class 2b as 250/2500 trucks because they had a GVWR under 10k. So they were what many here considered a 3/4 ton per the EPA and NHTSA truck classification standards even though many view them as 1 tons.

[Me_Again]

Sorta like the 2nd gen RAM 2500s that all 6084 listed as RGAWR, when many were shipped with optional LT265/75R16E rated at 3415 each vs the standard LT245/75R16E rated at 3042 each. Add the camper option and you got 1T rear springs. So one have basically a SRW 3500 with 2500 badges, and a tire selection that was more capable than the 3rd gens with 17" rims and tires.

Many of us towed for years with these 2nd gens well over the low 8800 GVWR. My was licensed to 12K in Washington State.

[ShinerBock]

MFL wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
Shiner, your preaching to the choir, this horse is beat down dead. (But you were looking for the debate when you started the thread anyway)

Yup, Grit has nailed it again!

I can remember someone, I think a Mod, maybe Barney, posting a pick of a dead horse, upside down on it's back.

I,m just going to add my .02, that I have posted before. If only the folks towing an RV, staying within all/every rating of the TV, were allowed on the public roadways, I'd not need a camping reservation, even on Holidays. 🙂

Jerry

Exactly! One of the major reasons I posted this was due to some one saying I needed more truck for hauling 3k ,even though I was well within my GAWR, and said a 1 ton was needed.

This reminded me about the 1 tons I saw that had a lower GAWR than my truck when I was helping my father in law pick out a new truck. If I had that 1 ton then I would be over the rear GAWR with 3,100 lbs while still being under its GVWR, but would be over my 2500's GVWR while still being under it's rear GAWR.

Then there are the manufactures that de-rate their trucks to fit in a lower class like Ford does with their F450 and some F350's. This is not the case for all manufacturers because some like Ram seam to just increase the capabilities of the trucks in their current class like how select Ram 3500 trucks has similar specs and capabilities of F450's and Ram 2500's has higher specs and capabilities of select F350's.

I would wager that no one would question a de-rated 10k GVWR F350 going over it's GVWR simply because it has a "3" in the badge, but would question a Ram 2500 going over it's 10k GVWR even though the Ram has higher GAWR than the de-rated F350. As was stated earlier, it is not as simple as it looks and the old way of judging a trucks capabilities based on the numbers in their badge or whether they are a 1 ton or 3/4 ton goes out the window especially between makes.

[ShinerBock]

nickthehunter wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

nickthehunter wrote:
I’ll tell him (hopefully once he hears it he’ll be done).
Shiner - you are indeed smarter than the manufacturers. The manufacturer’s engineers are stupid and know nothing about the products they are designing. You indeed have figured it out and everyone here should ignore the manufacturer’s ratings and go by the “Sihiner Ratings” instead.

Actually I used to work for said manufactures and on the dealership level for over 20 years now. One of my jobs throughout those years was to spec out trucks for our medium and heavy duty customers to ensure they were well within their axle ratings and legal for what they were using their truck for.

It was not uncommon to take a class 7 or 8 truck and de-rate it for a customer to class 6 so they did not have to pay higher registration costs. Many of these customers only needed the class 7 or 8 capabilities off road and were generally empty on road. So yeah, I know how common it is to de-rate a trucks GVWR even though the truck itself can handle more just for registration purposes.

BS - the only thing they did was register it at less than it’s GVWR, it still had the same GVWR as set by the manufacturer regardless of what the license plate said. Nothing was derated.

Nope, it is not BS. I, the manufacturer, purposely de-rated a class 7 & 8 trucks with a class 6 GVWR. Very similar to how Ford de-rates certain class 3 F350's to fit into s class 2B GVWR, how they de-rated the class 4 F450 (pick-up only) to fit into a class 3 GVWR, and how they will de-rate certain class 7 F750's to fit into a class 6 GVWR. It really does happen more than you think especially in the medium and heavy duty industry.

[nickthehunter]

ShinerBock wrote:

nickthehunter wrote:
I’ll tell him (hopefully once he hears it he’ll be done).
Shiner - you are indeed smarter than the manufacturers. The manufacturer’s engineers are stupid and know nothing about the products they are designing. You indeed have figured it out and everyone here should ignore the manufacturer’s ratings and go by the “Sihiner Ratings” instead.

Actually I used to work for said manufactures and on the dealership level for over 20 years now. One of my jobs throughout those years was to spec out trucks for our medium and heavy duty customers to ensure they were well within their axle ratings and legal for what they were using their truck for.

It was not uncommon to take a class 7 or 8 truck and de-rate it for a customer to class 6 so they did not have to pay higher registration costs. Many of these customers only needed the class 7 or 8 capabilities off road and were generally empty on road. So yeah, I know how common it is to de-rate a trucks GVWR even though the truck itself can handle more just for registration purposes.

BS - the only thing they did was register it at less than it’s GVWR, it still had the same GVWR as set by the manufacturer regardless of what the license plate said. Nothing was derated.