Cost of EV Batteries

[Fisherman]

Caught this earlier today which may tend to sway some buyers and I suspect it won't end there. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/09/ford-increasing-price-of-electric-f-150-lightning-.html
In addition if you want to go extended, Starting at $54,669 with the standard battery, opting for the Extended Range Battery adds $19,500—

[Reisender]

propchef wrote:

spoon059 wrote:

time2roll wrote:
Jeff will never live the same life as most of us. I still give credit to making an effort through his company.

Let me know when an oil company executive goes above and beyond what is required to reduce pollution.

If you think that anyone is making electric vehicles to "reduce pollution" than you have been brainwashed. It is about increasing profit. Musk saw a chance to corner a market and make cash money. It isn't about being more Green or Earth friendly... it's only about making the almighty dollar. I promise you that batteries and EV aren't nearly as Green as you may want to believe...

The only ones consistently crying about EVs not being "green" are those who oppose them. I don't see EV owners bragging about "saving the environment." There are many legitimate reasons to buy an EV without even discussing anything "green."

Musk went WAAAYYYY out on a limb developing his cars. Prior to Musk electric cars were only slightly larger and safer than the common golf cart. No one (read: major manufacturers) was investing serious time or money to develop EVs. Musk knew that to be successful, an EV has to equally match the ICE it's replacing. Same comfort, safety, range, capacity, cup holders and sunroof and price levels. The Model S was an industry game changer, the Model 3 solidified his place in the market. It was only after Musk proved it could be done that the big boys got in with serious research. Everyone is now playing catch-up, although the Germans are close on his heels. Capitalism at it's finest.

EVs are fast, fun to drive, cheap to operate and have very low levels of maintenance. The "green" argument (to me) always falls flat becuase the oil industry has more than 100 years of poor behavior practices to reflect on. I don't think we'll pollute the Gulf of Mexico with a lithum spill.

Yep. Up until EV's nobody gave a carp about mining. Now its the devils work. Good thing ICE vehicles are made out of wood and the catalytic converters are made out of hemp or they would be doomed. 🙂

[8_1_Van]

Researchers found that light-duty EVs have approximately 64% lower cradle-to-grave life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions than ICE vehicles on average across the United States.

Researchers also found that switching an ICE vehicle to an EV results in greater total tonnage of emissions reductions as the vehicle size increases, due to the greater fuel consumption of larger vehicles.

link

[Grit_dog]

^Spot on Nammedevac.
Just look at the vast number of 20-30 year old vehicles on the road.
Some are nice vehicles and folks like me have a couple of em around because they’re economical to own inside and maintain. And MANY are folks that can’t afford new or newer vehicles.
Simply based on that lifecycle and current % of EVs, either there will be ALOT of people that can’t have a vehicle in 20-30 years or there will be ALOT of gassers still on the road.

EV viable alternative for some? Absolutely.
EV the answer for society as a whole? Not for a long time. For multiple reasons, regardless of how big of a chubby some people get over the new technology.

[propchef]

spoon059 wrote:

time2roll wrote:
Jeff will never live the same life as most of us. I still give credit to making an effort through his company.

Let me know when an oil company executive goes above and beyond what is required to reduce pollution.

If you think that anyone is making electric vehicles to "reduce pollution" than you have been brainwashed. It is about increasing profit. Musk saw a chance to corner a market and make cash money. It isn't about being more Green or Earth friendly... it's only about making the almighty dollar. I promise you that batteries and EV aren't nearly as Green as you may want to believe...

The only ones consistently crying about EVs not being "green" are those who oppose them. I don't see EV owners bragging about "saving the environment." There are many legitimate reasons to buy an EV without even discussing anything "green."

Musk went WAAAYYYY out on a limb developing his cars. Prior to Musk electric cars were only slightly larger and safer than the common golf cart. No one (read: major manufacturers) was investing serious time or money to develop EVs. Musk knew that to be successful, an EV has to equally match the ICE it's replacing. Same comfort, safety, range, capacity, cup holders and sunroof and price levels. The Model S was an industry game changer, the Model 3 solidified his place in the market. It was only after Musk proved it could be done that the big boys got in with serious research. Everyone is now playing catch-up, although the Germans are close on his heels. Capitalism at it's finest.

EVs are fast, fun to drive, cheap to operate and have very low levels of maintenance. The "green" argument (to me) always falls flat becuase the oil industry has more than 100 years of poor behavior practices to reflect on. I don't think we'll pollute the Gulf of Mexico with a lithum spill.

[NamMedevac_70]

shelbyfv wrote:
It's not surprising that apartment complexes don't have EV charging. Most EVs are still premium priced.

Yes, like expensive yachts is one reason so few being owned or driven. Still a long long ways to go bubba joes. According to recent business news articles most EV owners still own and maintain a gasser. Says a lot about utility of EVs for everything. As usual tax credits for the wealthy. I have nothing against EVs only the attitude of many of their owners toward the ICE guys.

[shelbyfv]

It's not surprising that apartment complexes don't have EV charging. Most EVs are still premium priced.

[way2roll]

time2roll wrote:

way2roll wrote:
Someone please tell me what's green in the manufacture of EV's and their lifecycle without falling back on tailpipe emissions.

The green alternative might only be for most to become farmers and live like the Amish.

At least when lithium is mined it can be used for 20 years and then mostly recycled.

Oil is drilled, pumped, refined and burned. Any idea how long the carbon cycle will take to put that resource back in the ground to be used again?

You can't cherry pick parts of the process. Holistically EV's aren't green. They just aren't. And comparing it to the Amish is a straw man argument. I would love to see any evidence that mining, shipping, trucking, manufacturing, disposal, charging or ANY part of the process of EV's cradle to grave is green. Let alone marginally better than ICE's. And financially (aside from those profiting from their sale) I don't see the upside. When the batteries wear out the replacement cost eclipses the value of the vehicle. Guess what happens then. And that happens much sooner than the majority of ICE's. Demand on the power grid will increase everyone's taxes for the infrastructure and cost for electricity whether you own an EV or not. Subsidies are making some folks extremely wealthy - that comes from taxpayers. Ford just announced they are cutting 3,000 jobs due to the migration to EV's. Never mind the continued dependence on foreign nations. This is all being packaged up and forced upon us wrapped up in a nice green bow.

Again, I am not anti EV. I am against peeing down my back and telling me it's raining while digging in my pockets.

[way2roll]

Thermoguy wrote:

way2roll wrote:

free radical wrote:

PButler96 wrote:

The usual FUDsters are bored w life no doubt so come here to troll nonsense again :B

Tesla batts are guranteed for milion miles,how long is any truck or car powered w ICE good for ? :B :B

Check Reporterfy media travel chanel or Living in China to see what our media never tell you about that country.
Richard Augilar chanel is also good.

The New Atlas chanel and Jimmy Dore has good info on Ukr.
Rusia will win without a doubt.

Not sure where you get your information but according to Tesla's own website their batteries are guaranteed for 8 years or 100k miles.

I can't make sense of the rest of your post.

I'm not sure what Tesla website you read, but the one I read said 300,000 miles with about 15% degradation to the battery, not necessarily needing replacing, but not having the same capacity as a new battery. I have read a typical Hybrid gets about 8 years to a battery but never heard a mileage statement with that.

Here's Tesla's warranty link:

Tesla warranty

[NamMedevac_70]

I live in a modern 300 unit apartment complex and have observed no EV vehicles or charge stations in the complex and there are a great many 300 unit complexes in Reno with no charge stations. Most EV owners also still own a gasser auto or truck just in case. Interesting. Pays to read the latest and recent EV business news. Not all is positive. Cart before the horse.

[time2roll]

way2roll wrote:
Someone please tell me what's green in the manufacture of EV's and their lifecycle without falling back on tailpipe emissions.

The green alternative might only be for most to become farmers and live like the Amish.

At least when lithium is mined it can be used for 20 years and then mostly recycled.

Oil is drilled, pumped, refined and burned. Any idea how long the carbon cycle will take to put that resource back in the ground to be used again?

[Grit_dog]

Thermoguy wrote:

The most important point of an EV is not the LiIon battery, that will change in the near future. The concept of not relying on a standard gas station to refill your vehicle is the win for EV. Charging at home, charging at work, Charging while waiting at a red light or driving a charged road, that's what's coming. I think they have a solar road in Norway or somewhere similar.

And an equally important point is that you can't rely on a standard gas station when you're not at home, work or in many of the vast and many not so vast areas that have little to no EV charging infrastructure. Or if you live in an apartment or have to park on street or outside your garage (where also in many urban and suburban areas, it's a virtual guarantee that you'll need a large stock of charging cords to replace the ones that get stolen regularly).

It's back to the same story....for now, EVs are largely NOT economical from an overall cost standpoint, they are not well suited for many folks and not well suited to many areas and many of them are merely a status symbol. (Not like other ICE vehicles aren't, but someone shelling out 6 figures for a midsize or half ton Etruck isn't doing it to save the planet or to save their wallet.)

[Thermoguy]

way2roll wrote:

free radical wrote:

PButler96 wrote:

The usual FUDsters are bored w life no doubt so come here to troll nonsense again :B

Tesla batts are guranteed for milion miles,how long is any truck or car powered w ICE good for ? :B :B

Check Reporterfy media travel chanel or Living in China to see what our media never tell you about that country.
Richard Augilar chanel is also good.

The New Atlas chanel and Jimmy Dore has good info on Ukr.
Rusia will win without a doubt.

Not sure where you get your information but according to Tesla's own website their batteries are guaranteed for 8 years or 100k miles.

I can't make sense of the rest of your post.

I'm not sure what Tesla website you read, but the one I read said 300,000 miles with about 15% degradation to the battery, not necessarily needing replacing, but not having the same capacity as a new battery. I have read a typical Hybrid gets about 8 years to a battery but never heard a mileage statement with that.

The most important point of an EV is not the LiIon battery, that will change in the near future. The concept of not relying on a standard gas station to refill your vehicle is the win for EV. Charging at home, charging at work, Charging while waiting at a red light or driving a charged road, that's what's coming. I think they have a solar road in Norway or somewhere similar.

[time2roll]

spoon059 wrote:
The problem is that fast charging is detrimental to the battery. Too much heat significantly reduces lifespan.

Cheaper batteries that are lighter and smaller and hold more charge will be needed to make it feasible to the masses for anything beyond a commuter style vehicle.

Heat was an issue for the LEAF especially the early models. Virtually all other vehicles have a temperature control system for the battery. Not really an issue.

[Reisender]

spoon059 wrote:

2oldman wrote:
350kw chargers can do the job in 10-15 minutes, if your battery can take it. They're getting better. Level 2 chargers work on campground 50a service.

The problem is that fast charging is detrimental to the battery. Too much heat significantly reduces lifespan.

Cheaper batteries that are lighter and smaller and hold more charge will be needed to make it feasible to the masses for anything beyond a commuter style vehicle.

Meh, fast charging is not a big deal. There are cab companies all over the world using EV’s and even after 400,000 kilometres most still have north of 85 percent capacity. Certainly hasn’t had any real affect on any EV we have owned. And when we are towing we fast charge a lot.

And the masses already think it’s feasible. It’s more about building enough to keep up with demand.

[spoon059]

2oldman wrote:
350kw chargers can do the job in 10-15 minutes, if your battery can take it. They're getting better. Level 2 chargers work on campground 50a service.

The problem is that fast charging is detrimental to the battery. Too much heat significantly reduces lifespan.

Cheaper batteries that are lighter and smaller and hold more charge will be needed to make it feasible to the masses for anything beyond a commuter style vehicle.