Diesel vs gas......................

[blt2ski]

OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.

Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty

[Ag_Teacher]

This is in reference to the quotes about the Cummins Dodge having a medium duty engine but the gas engines not being medium duty engines.

Look here: http://www.chevrolet.com/medium_duty/kodiak/model_c7500.htm

The 8.1 is offered in class 7 trucks so wouldn't that make it a medium duty engine also.

As far as the Italian with no Face (must have lost it shaving), engine power is measured in a term called Horsepower. The 8.1 G.M. engine has more horsepower than any diesel engine offered in a pickup.

[justJeff]

Bert, I'm guessing that you must be about 105? Just kiddding. Certainly the old, hulking tanks of the far past were very heavy, and powered by gas engines. Of course, technology has improved quite a bit in both gas and diesel engines. Even with all the progess in gas engines though, the choice for most modern, heavy duty work are diesel engines. Diesels tend to make their power down low, 500hp doesn't do much good when it's at 5,000rpm. Hard to get a load moving with that, but you're right, it can be done. My point is mostly that with all of the wonderful technology, for a variety of reasons, when it is heavy hauling/work that needs to be done, the best available choices are usually diesel powered. It's not a cooincidence that most large sea going vessels are also diesel powered.

You're certainly right about gas powered rigs being used a great deal in the past. That's the past though. Maybe one day we'll have some kind of hydro powered motor that will make our diesels today look antiquated. Technology is moving forward.

[BertP]

Bert, I just called a local landscaper that has a 5yd gas powered dump truck. I asked him if I put our 35,000lb excavator on our equipment trailer that weighs about 10,000lbs if he thought his truck would move it, of course being a sensible buy he just sort of laughed. Imagine if he would load up 5yds of rock in the truck and then try to haul it.

What is his truck rated to haul? If it is rated for 45,000 lb or more, it should not be a problem. If it is rated less, then it will not be safe regardless of whether it has a diesel or gas engine.

You seem to be reading more into my posts than I intended. I have never said that you or anyone else should abandon their diesel trucks in favor of gassers for any reason. I simply questioned your claim that a gas engined truck cannot pull a good sized load. If you look back to WWII, you will find that the tanks used then weighed, in some cases, over 100,000 lb and they had gas engines. And, if they needed to be road transported, what kind of engine was in the truck that they rode on? Gas engines. Now, if gas engines were able to pull that kind of load during WWII when engine technology was in its infancy, why would a gas engine today be incapable of pulling a load that is less than 30% of what they routinely pulled then?

Bert, have you ever seen a gas powered truck of any vintage move something like a D8 around? I'm just curious.

See above. Remember that even into the 60's, the vast majority of heavy haulers were powered by gas engines because the technology required to build reliable diesels simply didn't exist. The US Army did not standardize on diesels until around 1963. Prior to that, it was gas all the way.

Bert

[justJeff]

Bert, I just called a local landscaper that has a 5yd gas powered dump truck. I asked him if I put our 35,000lb excavator on our equipment trailer that weighs about 10,000lbs if he thought his truck would move it, of course being a sensible buy he just sort of laughed. Imagine if he would load up 5yds of rock in the truck and then try to haul it.

Bert, have you ever seen a gas powered truck of any vintage move something like a D8 around? I'm just curious.

[justJeff]

Oh sure Bert, there are some practically antique 5yd dump trucks with gas engines in them running around, as well as a few 10yd trucks, but GET REAL! The vast majority of modern dump trucks are diesel powered.

I have an excavator that weighs about 35,000lbs, you find a gas truck that will pull it like our dump truck and bring it on over.

The reason I think so many gas owners wine about diesels is that they couldn't, or didn't feel likey ponying up the extra money. Just my opinion.

Your arguments about gas engines for heavy duty applications are rather ridiculous. Have you considered the relative extra safety margin afforded by diesel in many applications?

I have a construction yard full or diesel equipment, I can guarantee there isn't a modern counterpart for much of it that is powered by a gas engine.

[Lord-Dogbert]

Who cares, GM just drove a fuel cell based car through Europe with no gas and no emmisions. http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/400_fcv/

I got the 8.1l because it was $3500 cheaper, lighter, quieter so that I can hear my all the cool sounds that my Allison tranny makes and 87 octane runs 2.09 and diesel runs 2.29 here in So Cal(10-4-04). Even with better gas mileage I would never recoup.

I for one am looking forward to Mr. Fusion hanging out of my hood; run outta gas, find some trash and your on your way again.

This debate is the same as democrat vs. republican, Chevy vs. Ford vs. Dodge. Opinions are like @$$ holes, everybody's got one. Get what works for you

Oh, and those continental European's, don't follow them. They're an odd bunch. Ever get behind an old diesel VW bus; I don't know what's worse the smoke cloud or the gagging reflex from the fumes.

[Cornelius]

Deleted

[Ivory_Snatcher]

We were driving on Sawmill Rd. in Columbus, OH. this morning and a fuel station had Diesel at $2.14.9/gal. and regular gas at $1.71/gal. It would certainly take a long time to recoup the front end costs of a diesel in a vehicle with figures like this.

Just thought I would throw this in for the experts in this thread.

What does it mean and why should I care? I don't know.

Ivory Snatcher
Ret. USAR

[BertP]

lkazanov - I wouldn't count the gassers out yet. There are a lot of resources being poured into the development of more efficient engines all the time, so I think there will be some developments. Also, notice that as the diesels become more environmentally friendly, they lose a little on fuel consumption. It isn't a free ride.

And, further to Tom's comment about taxes in Europe, their anti pollution laws are quite a bit different there than here. Many European militaries there are re-engineing much of their equipment and replacing the gassers with diesels. Why? Because the gassers cannot meet the European emissions laws but the diesels can. As with most things, there's more to it than meets the eye.

Jim - Why is there a difference between putting a turbo or supercharger on a gasser and putting one on a diesel? They are both internal combustion engines that work in almost exactly the same way. Yes, charging the intake track will add stresses to the engine. But, if the engine is designed to take the stress, it should be no worse for wear. As for your friends, notice that "they fall back because they don't like high RPM they have to run to keep up". It isn't the 8.1 that is causing them to drop back. If they were to keep their foot in it, their trucks would outpull your CTD as long as the altitude doesn't get too high (lack of turbo will hurt them high up).

The 8.1 produces more power than the CTD, so it will pull anything the CTD can and then some. Are the big gassers destined to be dinosaurs? I honestly don't know. The fact that they are still being built implies that there is a market for them. I did notice, though, that the 8.1 is no longer the standard engine in the GM medium duty trucks, so you may very well be right. Don't hold your breath, though 🙂

Bert

[tgatch]

A prime example...40% of all passenger vehicles sold in Europe are diesel. If you look at all the brands available to European buyers there will always be a diesel engine available. That even includes Land Rovers, Merecedes Benz, etc. he Europeans also benefit from much, much cleaner diesel fuels.

I hate to say it, but the "Europeans love diesel" is a myth. They don't like diesel anymore than most Americans. Why do they buy them then? Big tax incentives is the reason. After the tax incentives are put in place Diesel works out to be about 40% less than gas. Places where there aren't tax incentives, such as England, gas vehicles far outnumber the diesel vehicles.

My source??? Car and Driver Magazine. The issue with the Yellow Corvette on the cover, I believe it is the current issue. Read the article where they compare two hybrids, one diesel and one gas. They talk about the very issue above.

Tom

[JIMNLIN]

Brewster
I don't think your trucks make a fleet average for big block gas engines. Sounds like 350000 mi on your 2000 truck you'v done a good job on maintance and at 87000 mi a year you do a lot of towing. Motorhome mag had a article a few years back on the 454/460 in different M/H's and they were runnin',on average, 60-80000 mi before rebuild.
Bert
A Whipple on a 8.1 would be a great street truck but wouldn't last long as a tow truck. The 8.1 hasn't been out long enough to have a average mi before rebuild rep yet. Interesting theory on 8.1 out pullin' the Cummins as there are two 8.1 GMCs, that tow with our group and they can out accelerate me , from a dead stop, but out on the road going into a strong head wind or pullin' long grades they fall back because they don't like high RPM they have to run to keep up. Yes and I do have the bigger load.
Back in the old 348/409, 396/427 dump truck days that I drove as a young man we had these same arguments . They are now old dinosaurs now just like the 8.1/v10s will be in a HD pickup in the very near future......JIM

[lkazanov]

OK....I will throough in my 2 cents worth (seems everybody has LOL).

BertP is correct in the pulling aspects of gas vs diesel. Indeed, the 8.1L will pull just about anything with the right gearing. This also applied to a motorcycle engine example that was brought up earlier.

But our readers need to keep the following in mind....engine issues aside (ie light duty vs medium duty, longevty, etc.)

Pound for pound, diesel will produce more energy then gasoline. This is based on the fuel properties alone, nothing to do with cummins vs powersroke vs duramax vs 8.1L gasoline.

A prime example...40% of all passenger vehicles sold in Europe are diesel. If you look at all the brands available to European buyers there will always be a diesel engine available. That even includes Land Rovers, Merecedes Benz, etc. he Europeans also benefit from much, much cleaner diesel fuels.

The diesel engine by its simple physics is a superior engine. In the sense that it derives more energy from the same pound of fuel as a gasoline engine. Now one may argue that a diesel is heavier and that a vehicle needs to carry more weight. But that is an engineering standpoint and will be rectified through stronger and lighter materials.

Folks...the future is diesel. The European car makers are trying to make us understand. We will soon see the first diesel powered mid SUV, the Liberty, be made available here. VW has had diesel choices available here as long as I can remeber, the Rabbit. Once the public perception changes as to the smell, noise factors of OLD diesel technology then we will see more and more diesel.

BertP you also mentioned economics of gas vs diesel. You seemed to downplay this for an individual but made it more important for fleet buyers. We only have a certain amount of dead dinosuars available to make fossil fuels. This is not an infinite supply. Diesel makes the most energy from every drop of fuel it sees. That is simple physics.

Thank you for having an educated discussion.

LK

[BertP]

Bert
I don't believe I mentioned anything about a 450/ gasser thing so I can't comment.

The part I was referring to was where you said "I have an equipment trailer setting in our yard with a 450 setting on it. If anyone has a gas powered rig that they think can move it, bring it on over and we'll let you hook up to it.". As an example, a couple of years ago, I needed a new septic field installed at my place so I hired an outfit to dig one. They showed up with a tandem dump truck pulling an equipment trailer on which was a JD back hoe. The engine in the truck? A gasser. I know that a back hoe is not as heavy as an excavator, but the gasser handled the back hoe just fine, so it should handle the 450 without a problem as well.

OnEdit: My apologies, Jim. I confused your post with one made by Jeff. I see now that you did not make any comments about a 450.

Put a turbo on a 8.1 gasser thats out there today and it will have a very short life in the real world of pullin', towin', where the torque of the diesel will out work any of the gas engines in our T/V's in the market.

I think you would be surprised. I was camping last spring and the guy beside me had a 2002 GMC 2500HD CC 8.1/Allison. He had installed a supercharger (Whipple, I think) and said he was getting 525HP and somewhere around 800 lb ft of torque. But, even without any addition to the engine, the 8.1 will pull with any diesel and will last as long as any of the light duty diesels if maintained properly.

Out here in the real world of workin' these trucks gas doesn't compete for long term reliability, fuel consumption and ease of movin' big loads cross country.

Again, you are comparing light duty engines to medium or heavy duty engines. Someone mentioned in another thread about the stationary diesels they work on. Those engines are designed to work for the equivalent of around a million miles before an overhaul is required. That makes the engines in the OTR and other HD trucks look like wimpy little short lived whiny lawn mower engines. It all depends where you start from. The engines in the large trucks last longer than our engines not because they are diesel but because they are heavy duty.

Brewster has a point as well. I heard the other day that the taxis in New York have an oil change every 20,000 to 25,000 miles. When I heard that, I thought, no way, they would be destroyed in no time. But, think about it. Those engines are almost never shut off because the drivers work in shifts. As a result, they never have to run starved of oil - as happens every time you start a cold engine gas or diesel - and they never have to contend with all of the crud that precipitates in the crankcase of any engine that is not running. Those engines are in pristine condition. The same is true for the big trucks. Their engines are almost never shut off either, so they rarely have to endure the torture that our car and pickup engines go through many times a day.

Next time your at a truck stop check with the boys thats driving 3500 trucks that hooked up to 25-30000 lbs and try tellin' them an 8.1 will out work a diesel.
......JIM

The fact that those people would not accept a statement as true does not make it false. An 8.1 will work just as hard as any non chipped diesel and harder than many. It will outpull just about any stock pickup available and will last just as long as any light duty diesel doing it. The problem with the gassers is fuel consumption. If your truck is used in a commercial capacity, that translates into $'s. If your truck is pulling an RV, that translates into shorter legs between fillups. Either way, diesels come out on top as far as fuel is concerned.

In any event, why are there 3500 series trucks pulling 25 - 30,000 lb when they are not rated anywhere near that high? Regardless of what engine you have under the hood, the entire truck must be rated for those weights before it is safe or legal.

Bert

[Brewster]

I'm sorry, Jimnlin, your story about logevity just doesn't hold up.

I'm on my fourth straight gas vehicle, well on its way to 350,000 miles, and I expect it to exceed 400,000, just like the other three. All of those vehicles were traded in not because the engine couldn't tow, or because the engine was worn out, but because the body couldn't take any more or they lacked features I needed.

As others have stated, commercial vehicles use a high percentage of Diesels because of fuel economy considerations, and because noise/smell/poor starting, etc. are not issues in vehicles that are used in the field constantly. By the way, I believe that constant running is the reason for much of those engine's long life, not any inherent advantage... A lot of wear is avoided if an engine stays warm.

Newer diesels are starting to catch up in terms of noise and smell, but they haven't made it yet... Now if they could do something about the price, I might consider one... Maybe...

[JIMNLIN]

Bert
I don't believe I mentioned anything about a 450/ gasser thing so I can't comment.
Put a turbo on a 8.1 gasser thats out there today and it will have a very short life in the real world of pullin', towin', where the torque of the diesel will out work any of the gas engines in our T/V's in the market . Out here in the real world of workin' these trucks gas doesn't compete for long term reliability, fuel consumption and ease of movin' big loads cross country.
Next time your at a truck stop check with the boys thats driving 3500 trucks that hooked up to 25-30000 lbs and try tellin' them an 8.1 will out work a diesel.
......JIM