Diesel vs gas......................

[blt2ski]

OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.

Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty

[SKIRMISH]

One more + for diesels, at least in CA, no smog (emission) test every 2 years @ $40 or more + the hassle of wasting a saturday doing it.

[Sport45]

I think you and I are among the few that buy old trucks. My latest is the '83 my dad gave my son. It only has 140,000 miles though.

I though about WVO when he said he made his fuel. I understand it works pretty good as long as you warm the engine up first and run enough diesel through the injectors before you shut down. Of course, any one following you would be looking around for the Mickey D's.

When do you think the government will catch on and start taxing the stuff? We already have to pay road tax and have to have a sticker saying we do so to run on propane. And that's even to use the product we make ourselves! (Yes, I work for a big oil company.)

[Jarlaxle]

No thanks. I'm not buying a 200,000 mile rig. I don't care what kind of condition the power plant is in. I bought my last F-150 with 150,000 miles and put another 83,000 miles on it, but I knew the condition and it was a steal of a deal for price. When was the last time you bought a pickup with 200,000 miles?

I bought my 1992 F-350 with 298,000 miles.

No need to make biodiesel...just run greasel (WVO, used fryer oil).

[BertP]

Steak2k1 wrote:
Diesel VS Gas.

Hmm let me see. Passin a gasser loaded with a 5'er going up a 7% grade. He's doin 40 in 2nd gear & I,m doing 70+ in 6th....priceless.!!

Check out the tests done on pickuptruck.com. If the gasser is doing 40 on that hill, so are you in your diesel. I know that my diesel won't hold 70 on a 7% grade with my 5er in tow and it sure won't be in OD. It may empty, but not with a load.

Steak2k1 wrote:
Hmm let me see. Gassers cost more to fill up especialy seeing as one cannot make gasoline nor ethanol at home-you all is at the mercy fo the OIL company...ever hear of BioDiesel..?? I make my fuel.

People have been making moonshine for many years now, so the procedure is well known. As for biodiesel, it is extremely dangerous to make bio diesel (lye and ethanol are very dangerous to handle).

Steak2k1 wrote:
Hmm let me see. Diesel GM after 200k still sells very very well Gasser GM not so good...likely worn out by that time..!! same would apply to Ferd/Dodge.

GM and Ford rate their gassers and diesels with the same life expectancy: 200K miles. If you look after them, they will last a lot longer, but neither one has a life expectancy advantage over the other.

Steak2k1 wrote:
No contest folks...be it torque, longetivity or the ability to make your own fuel diesel wins out.

rgds,

stk

Reread the thread, stk.

Bert

[Sport45]

Sport45 wrote:
A few more good natured counter pounts:

Steak2k1 wrote:
Diesel VS Gas.

Hmm let me see. Passin a gasser loaded with a 5'er going up a 7% grade. He's doin 40 in 2nd gear & I,m doing 70+ in 6th....priceless.!!

I'm happy for you. I grew up and quit racing a long time ago. We'll both make it to the top and that's good enough for me. By the way, did the driver of the gas rig know you guys were racing? How do you know what gear he was in?

Priceless? I though you shelled out good money for that beefy, testosterone-dripping, manly engine.

Hmm let me see. Gassers cost more to fill up especialy seeing as one cannot make gasoline nor ethanol at home-you all is at the mercy fo the OIL company...ever hear of BioDiesel..?? I make my fuel.

You make all of your fuel? Must have a lot of time on your hands and a bit of a processing plant in your barn.

Who says you can't make corn-squeezin's at home? That's been going on ever since prohibition. Ever heard of pipeline drip condensate? Burns about as good as gas. Used to run on a bit (dieseling was a bad thing then) with carburated engines, but not too bad in these fuel injected rigs. Gasoline engines also easily adapt to natural gas, butane, propane, or hydrogen. I've seen a lot of big trucks (like garbage trucks) that run fixed routes burning propane.

Hmm let me see. Diesel GM after 200k still sells very very well
Gasser GM not so good...likely worn out by that time..!! same would apply to Ferd/Dodge.

No thanks. I'm not buying a 200,000 mile rig. I don't care what kind of condition the power plant is in. I bought my last F-150 with 150,000 miles and put another 83,000 miles on it, but I knew the condition and it was a steal of a deal for price. When was the last time you bought a pickup with 200,000 miles? Or are you a seller at that point? I see you drive an '06 with "a little 'xtra jam." If you don't mind my asking, how many miles did you have on your trade-in?

No contest folks...be it torque, longetivity or the ability to make your own fuel diesel wins out.

Okay, you win. The rest of us are just plain stupid. I'll go grab my pointy hat and sit in the corner now.

I hope you're proud of yourself. I'll probably not be able to sleep for weeks knowing how bad I screwed up.:(

rgds,

stk

[COLOR=]Really, as it has been said before, "Beauty is in the eye of the key holder." Enjoy your rig, enjoy the road and have a happy day.;)

[Sport45]

Double post. Deleted by Sport45

[Sport45]

I enjoy chatting with open-minded folks as well. Often people are so defensive of their choice that they publicly declare anyone who chose otherwise to be foolish.

I've never had nearly that much weight on my truck. I pull occasionally, and have averaged over 13 mpg for the 80,000 miles I’ve driven it. I compare that to a friend of mine who had essentially the same vehicle with a PSD and used it about the same as me. He averaged just over 18 mpg. When I did the math (at the time diesel was less expensive than gasoline) the payout on fuel alone was over 100,000 miles. No more than I drive in a year’s time I couldn’t justify it that way. (I tried, believe me, because I really wanted the diesel.) I just couldn’t ever make a good dollars and cents argument to myself to get one. If I pulled a trailer a lot more often or put more miles per year on my truck I would have done it. (I want 4x4 too, but that’s another story.) Maybe when the boys are out of college and my finances are obviously set for retirement I’ll splurge and buy what I want for a change. In the mean time my V-10 (okay, so maybe I did splurge the $600) will have to keep getting the job done.

I respectfully disagree with you on a couple of your points. I don’t believe over the road trucks have diesel engines because of longevity, service intervals, or ease of maintenance. Those factors do bear on the decision, but the trucking companies are in business to make money. The main factor that drives their engine choice decision is fuel cost. And for what they do, diesel is cheaper. If it was less expensive to deliver the goods with gasoline they’d be lining up to buy them. If gasoline was half the price of diesel wouldn’t you buy one too? All you’d need is a larger fuel tank to get the same range between fill ups. That’s the reason almost every natural gas compressor station is powered by natural gas. As fuels go, it’s not as efficient as diesel but it’s a heck of a lot less expensive for the producer.

I also question the idea that diesels are a simpler engine than gasoline because of the lack of an ignition system. I think the injection system makes up for that. Today’s diesels are way more complicated than those we used to have in our M-F tractors. There wasn’t a wire on those old engines except for the ones going to the starter and generator. You could usually fix them with a crescent wrench by bleeding the injector pump. Nowadays, it’s just as cluttered under the hood of a diesel pickup as a gasser. From a maintenance standpoint I miss the days of the simple engines, but I know the air is cleaner because of the additional complexity.

I wish you well and hope you have an abundance of trouble free miles. Enjoy the highway and savor the stops.

[Steakman]

Diesel VS Gas.

Hmm let me see. Passin a gasser loaded with a 5'er going up a 7% grade. He's doin 40 in 2nd gear & I,m doing 70+ in 6th....priceless.!!

Hmm let me see. Gassers cost more to fill up especialy seeing as one cannot make gasoline nor ethanol at home-you all is at the mercy fo the OIL company...ever hear of BioDiesel..?? I make my fuel.

Hmm let me see. Diesel GM after 200k still sells very very well
Gasser GM not so good...likely worn out by that time..!! same would apply to Ferd/Dodge.

No contest folks...be it torque, longetivity or the ability to make your own fuel diesel wins out.

rgds,

stk

[work2much]

Sport45 wrote:

Good natured counter points:

And some good natured counter-counter points

Higher initial cost is recovered in about 60k on fuel savings, and at resale you will come out ahead.

Are you quite sure about that? Or did you maybe fudge the diesel mpg up and the gasoline mpg down? Do you come out ahead at resale if you buy another diesel? It seems to me that you only recoup that upfront cost if you don't buy a replacement vehicle. Or can you claim that credit if you replace the diesel with a gasser?


Well, I get 15-16 regularly with a 5,500lb camper on my truck. I believe you would be lucky to get 9-10 with a gas truck. 5 mpg difference at 60,000 miles makes about a 2,000 gallon difference. Forgetting that Diesel is less per gallon (usually) and figuring both at 3 bucks a gallon (low) that makes a $6,000 difference in price (less then cost of the diesel option)As far as resale value there is a huge difference between a diesel and gas motor, especially when both trucks are high mileage. 5-7k for a 6-7 year old Dodge with 100,000 miles looking at autotrader.

More oil changes? Dodge recommends every 15,000 miles, for severe use 7,500. I spend 50 bucks every 7,500 miles. Not bad in my book.

I change my oil, all six quarts of it, and filter for about $15 every 5000 miles. Even better in my (check)book. And I only change fuel and air filters, for another $20, once a year.

Good point. The difference in oil costs saves you about $300 in 100,000 miles.

No glow plugs, never had to replace an injector on my two diesels. My 94 had a starter solenoid go bad at 140k, but other than that just fluids, tires and brakes. New truck has incurred no extra costs in 30k.

I'm glad to hear your diesel has lasted 30,000 miles. Were you worried? My '92 F-150 302, as mentioned above went 233,000 miles with only 2 seals replaced. (And many, many oil changes....) Some last, some don't. But nobody can argue that the diesel is cheaper to fix if it doesn't.

By nature diesels are simpler engines than gas motors as they don't have an ignition system. Many Diesels go over 500k with no concernable engine service. This is why over the road trucks are primarily diesel.233k is excellent mileage for a gas motor, but nothing to brag about with a good diesel. Our company changed fleet vehicles from gas Fords to Diesel Fords and Chevy's about 7 years ago. The diesels have required far less service, and far less fuel bills. We have about 25 trucks. Granted a new gas truck very well could perform better then the ones we let go.

Newer diesels (at least our Dodge) start easily in cold temps. Started ours at 10 below w/o waiting for the heater grid light to go off.

I'm willing to call that a wash. My gas engine isn't ever hard to start in cold weather either. What's a heater grid? I just jump in and turn the key.

A heater grid helps warm the air prior to being inducted into the motor. Being able to start at -10 w/o using it shows just how far modern diesels have come to address cold starts. Dodge cold startThis is an older Dodge and the newer ones start better. Point being no difference between gas and diesel for a cold start.

Fuel gelling is easily fixed with additive when in extreme cold temps.

Can't comment here. Never added anything to my fuel or coolant to keep the engine working.

Me neither. It has never been cold enough. The colder areas have a different blend of diesel fuel which should take care of temperature. I personally would probably add an anti gel when it gets below -10 degrees.

Yes, the engines are heavier. This is to be expected in an engine designed for 2-5 times longer life span and making more TQ.

Is it heavier for a longer life span? Or is it heavier because the peak cylinder pressure is higher? Where on earth did the 5 times longer come from, anyway? Maybe we're fudging diesels up and gassers down again? Even if they lasted twice as long you could buy a whole new engine to replace the worn out gasser for the extra cost. And you wouldn't have to pay for it up front. That cost would be deferred at least 200,000 miles.

5 times is an extreme, but there are lots of diesels out there with over 500,000 miles on them and even some close to a million miles. Our gasser company trucks were retired at 100k due to high maintenance costs, our diesels are running well at over 200k when we sell them for appearance sake. (Construction trucks get used hard) My 94 had over 200k and drove like new when we sold it to get a dually.

To each their own. I have owned many gas vehicles and two diesel ones. Who knows, maybe one day I will drive a gasser again.

And some day I might have a diesel. I don't have anything against diesels and if it makes sense next time I'm in the market I'll buy one.

Like you I have nothing against a gas truck. It seems to me though looking for a new truck the diesel option not only pays for itself in the first 60k and actually costs less overall considering resale value, why not have the more powerful, more efficient, longer range and more reliable (based on my experience with our fleet trucks)rig?

Beauty is in the eye of the key holder.

Absolutely!!!

This post isn't meant to be a slam against you personally or diesels in general. I've always said that diesels have their place. And sometimes that place is under the hood of a privately owned pickup. They make perfect cents (sic) for the over the road truckers, because they are all about life cycle cost and making money. Very few of us, me included, put 75,000+ miles a year on a vehicle and accumulate fuel bills that dwarf the monthly truck payment. For them a couple mpg is HUGE. For me, it's really not that big of a deal. I had enough money for a diesel so I have money for gasoline. We, for the most part don't care if the vehicle will last 1,000,000 miles because we're not keeping them nearly that long anyway. We'll get tired of it and want something new, or we'll see the next year model has a 5-valve tri-turbo 1000 lb-ft engine that runs on bacon grease and we have to have it. Even here on RV.net when you look at the signatures you rarely see a tow vehicle that's more than five years old.


Your points are well taken and no one truck is right for everyone. There is no disrespect for anybody's truck or preference. Thanks for the interesting and thoughtful responses. It is a pleasure to debate with such a civil and courteous poster.


Cheers,
Greg

Happy travels!

[Sport45]

Good natured counter points:

And some good natured counter-counter points

Higher initial cost is recovered in about 60k on fuel savings, and at resale you will come out ahead.

Are you quite sure about that? Or did you maybe fudge the diesel mpg up and the gasoline mpg down? Do you come out ahead at resale if you buy another diesel? It seems to me that you only recoup that upfront cost if you don't buy a replacement vehicle. Or can you claim that credit if you replace the diesel with a gasser?

More oil changes? Dodge recommends every 15,000 miles, for severe use 7,500. I spend 50 bucks every 7,500 miles. Not bad in my book.

I change my oil, all six quarts of it, and filter for about $15 every 5000 miles. Even better in my (check)book. And I only change fuel and air filters, for another $20, once a year.

No glow plugs, never had to replace an injector on my two diesels. My 94 had a starter solenoid go bad at 140k, but other than that just fluids, tires and brakes. New truck has incured no extra costs in 30k.

I'm glad to hear your diesel has lasted 30,000 miles. Were you worried? My '92 F-150 302, as mentioned above went 233,000 miles with only 2 seals replaced. (And many, many oil changes....) Some last, some don't. But nobody can argue that the diesel is cheaper to fix if it doesn't.

Newer diesels (at least our Dodge) start easily in cold temps. Started ours at 10 below w/o waiting for the heater grid light to go off.

I'm willing to call that a wash. My gas engine isn't ever hard to start in cold weather either. What's a heater grid? I just jump in and turn the key.

Fuel gelling is easily fixed with addative when in extreme cold temps.

Can't comment here. Never added anything to my fuel or coolant to keep the engine working.

Yes, the engines are heavier. This is to be expected in an engine designed for 2-5 times longer life span and making more TQ.

Is it heavier for a longer life span? Or is it heavier because the peak cylinder pressure is higher? Where on earth did the 5 times longer come from, anyway? Maybe we're fudging diesels up and gassers down again? Even if they lasted twice as long you could buy a whole new engine to replace the worn out gasser for the extra cost. And you wouldn't have to pay for it up front. That cost would be deferred at least 200,000 miles.

To each their own. I have owned many gas vehicles and two diesel ones. Who knows, maybe one day I will drive a gasser again.

And some day I might have a diesel. I don't have anything against diesels and if it makes sense next time I'm in the market I'll buy one.

Beauty is in the eye of the key holder.

Absolutely!!!

This post isn't meant to be a slam against you personally or diesels in general. I've always said that diesels have their place. And sometimes that place is under the hood of a privately owned pickup. They make perfect cents (sic) for the over the road truckers, beacuse they are all about life cycle cost and making money. Very few of us, me included, put 75,000+ miles a year on a vehicle and accumulate fuel bills that dwarf the monthly truck payment. For them a couple mpg is HUGE. For me, it's really not that big of a deal. I had enough money for a diesel so I have money for gasoline. We, for the most part don't care if the vehicle will last 1,000,000 miles because we're not keeping them nearly that long anyway. We'll get tired of it and want something new, or we'll see the next year model has a 5-valve tri-turbo 1000 lb-ft engine that runs on bacon grease and we have to have it. Even here on RV.net when you look at the signatures you rarely see a tow vehicle that's more than five years old.

Happy travels!

[work2much]

tomdrobin wrote:
Diesel Pros:
Lots of low end torque for towing.
Inherently better fuel economy than gasoline engine.

Diesel Cons:
Higher initial investment.
Higher maintenance cost: More oil changes, more oil, more expensive filters. Battery replacement costs a lot more. Injectors and glow plugs don't need regular replacement, but when they do a lot more $$$ than a set of spark plugs.
Don't start as well in really cold temps.
Fuel jelling sometimes in winter.
Extra weight of engine adds to vehicle weight.

Good natured counter points:

Higher initial cost is recovered in about 60k on fuel savings, and at resale you will come out ahead.

More oil changes? Dodge recommends every 15,000 miles, for severe use 7,500. I spend 50 bucks every 7,500 miles. Not bad in my book.

No glow plugs, never had to replace an injector on my two diesels. My 94 had a starter solenoid go bad at 140k, but other than that just fluids, tires and brakes. New truck has incured no extra costs in 30k.

Newer diesels (at least our Dodge) start easily in cold temps. Started ours at 10 below w/o waiting for the heater grid light to go off.

Fuel gelling is easily fixed with addative when in extreme cold temps.

Yes, the engines are heavier. This is to be expected in an engine designed for 2-5 times longer life span and making more TQ.

To each their own. I have owned many gas vehicles and two diesel ones. Who knows, maybe one day I will drive a gasser again.

Beauty is in the eye of the key holder.

Greg

[tomdrobin]

Diesel Pros:
Lots of low end torque for towing.
Inherently better fuel economy than gasoline engine.

Diesel Cons:
Higher initial investment.
Higher maintenance cost: More oil changes, more oil, more expensive filters. Battery replacement costs a lot more. Injectors and glow plugs don't need regular replacement, but when they do a lot more $$$ than a set of spark plugs.
Don't start as well in really cold temps.
Fuel jelling sometimes in winter.
Extra weight of engine adds to vehicle weight.

[Diesel-Dude]

Sport45 wrote:

Jarlaxle wrote:
Plenty of them. My old F-350 had 366,000 miles & most people guessed it at having about a third of that. My uncle's Dakota looks like someone has turned the odometer forward about 200,000 miles (he has 280K on it)--it's been repainted (5 years ago), but the interior is original except the floor mats.

It's great to see others keeping vehicles on the road a long time, but I think we're the exception rather than the rule.

Happy travels!

If you don't need/want a brand new truck, or a diesel, you could probably track down a late model 3/4 or 1-ton Chevy with the 8.1L Vortec big-block V-8. At 496 cubic inches, it's the largest engine, diesel or gas, ever set into a pickup truck (not including the Dodge Ram 1500 SRT-10 which isn't much of a work truck). It is basically a 454 with a factory .437" stroker crank. A factory stroked big-block! That's pretty cool.

GM rated the 8.1L vortec at 340hp @ 4200 rpm's and 455 Lb-ft of torque at 3200 rpm's. There are also marine versions rated as high as 415hp.

Two guys at work have them and while yes, they are thirsty, no more so than the 6.0L trucks other guys at work are driving. Both the guys at the shop have 5-speed manual transmissions, but it is my understanding the automatic trucks used the same Allison 1000 as the Duramax, but you would want to check around to confirm that.

A lot of people stayed away from the 8.1L because of the worry about gas mileage and GM stopped offering the 8.1L a few years ago. It's possable to pick up a used one for a decent price simply because the market just isn't very strong for it. For someone looking for a damn-strong puller who doesn't want to step up to a diesel, GM's 8.1L Vortec may be worth looking into.

[Sport45]

Jarlaxle wrote:
Plenty of them. My old F-350 had 366,000 miles & most people guessed it at having about a third of that. My uncle's Dakota looks like someone has turned the odometer forward about 200,000 miles (he has 280K on it)--it's been repainted (5 years ago), but the interior is original except the floor mats.

It's great to see others keeping vehicles on the road a long time, but I think we're the exception rather than the rule.

Happy travels!

[4winns]

Hi Everyone- well Ive read a ton on the whole gasser vs diesel..learned a lot. I love this site..... 🙂 My TV now is a Chevy PU 1/2 ton 2000 Z71 Ex.Cab- 5.3, 3.73, w/113k miles. Im towing a Sunset Creek 5ver, 6607#. The truck runs great- the hills are tough though and we bog down to 25-35mph. Im considering getting a 1 ton 6.0. Am I understanding the info correctly- that the difference between Chevys 5.3 and the 6.0 will be minimal?? Im eyeballing the diesel but the $$$ is killing me. I tow weekends thru May-Oct in the summer here in Maine. I just need the extra power on the darn hills. Hate to go for the 6.0 ( w/ 4.1) and be disappointed. Thanks for such a great site !!