Diesel vs gas......................

[blt2ski]

OK folks, there have been a few to many diesel vs gas threads that have shall we say gone to "Hell and a hand basket"! So if all of you would put in you BEST, no flaming reasons for going gas vs diesel, pro and con, I will either leave your thread, or copy and paste pertinant info to the 4 posts of pro and con of diesel or gas. This can include the GM 8.1 vs Dmax or Ford V-8/10 vs PSD etc too.

Be real and honest in you answers, not hear say, flaming etc PLEASE!

If posts are good ones, I will leave, if inflamatory or trolling in nature, they will be deleted! I will get this stick'd to the top for future parusing for those that need this type of info.

Added 6-23-04

We are getting closer to answers I am looking for etc.

Stuff like Ken's - T-Bone posts are good. There are a few others of you that have not posted, some with a 9 point question and answer type to figure out how you went with one or the other. If you are one of those, PLEASE repost in this thread. I may have to look up whom has done this and PM you, but if you think this is you, you now know what to do.

Also, for those of you with $ per gallon for either fuel right now, I would prefer to see a post with ...."in my area, diesel is typically .10 less than unleaded" then explain your numbers. As currently in the Seattle area, diesel and unleaded are any where from 2.05 -2.30 per gallon, with mid test .10 more and premium about .20 more, with equal high low splits. Two weeks ago those prices were upwards of .30 -.40 per gallon more. people were posting $ per gallon that were for me. "I wish" If someone is reading your post a year from now, they may want to know where your paying 1.65, when the price of fuel is over $3 per gallon. Let's keep prices out of it if possible.

Bert and tin tipi, got into a good discusion on the pros and cons of RPM's, drive train etc. I would prefer to NOT see the quote of the other in responding threads, maybe just write a quick wording of re tranny gearing, instead of the whole 40 words or so in that paragragh, so the repsonse is shorter if possible quicker and easier to read etc.

I have deleted some 15+/- posts, that were off topic etc. Please note, I am trying to keep this at the top, as the ONLY gas/diesel thread in this area. So if one is trying to decide, we do not have to go thru this BS any more. As such, I will be deleting ANY future posts close to resembling this type of topic. I may have to change "this" title to a better one, if one has a better sounding title, to be more positive, better claification, let me know here, or in a PM/e-mail, what ever you feel most comfortible with.

Again thank you for all of you that are keeping responses positive, etc.

Also we could use a few more positive reasons to go gas, as many can see I have both gas and diesel, both have a place! Both have positive reasons to buy that fuel, lets keep the threads etc to that purpose only!

Marty

[Jarlaxle]

OK, please tell me how the emission systems and standards on a Ram 5500 with a 6.7 Cummins and 17,500lbs GVWR and a Freightliner-chassis UPS truck with a 6.7 Cummins and a 17,500lb GVWR differ. Be specific.

[Tom_Holsinger]

Jaraxle, it's more an issue of the emissions system on diesel trucks screwing up the diesel engine than the engine itself.

AFAIK, the only problem diesel engines have that gasoline engines don't, the emissions system, aside, is that diesel engines are more massive and so need longer to warm up. This is not a problem for UPS delivery trucks as those are on all day. It can be a problem for diesel trucks used for daily commuting if the commute is short enough, and mine is - 25 minutes one-way, which is barely enough time for a diesel engine to properly warm up. That's why I should not use a diesel-engine pickup as my commute vehicle.

But the emissions control system is THE big problem with diesel-engine pickups, because the emissions systems are designed to meet federal tests, and those tests involve pickups used for hauling heavy loads long distances, as opposed to stop & go local deliveries of light loads. So the emissions control systems of heavy-duty diesel-engine pickup trucks are optimized to reduce emissions when towing heavy loads long distances, i.e., they work best when given diesel emissions composed mostly of fully burned fuel aka hot soot.

Diesel pickup emissions systems work badly, with lots of expensive maintenance problems for themselves and more for what they do to the diesel engines, when given a significant proportion of diesel emissions composed of unburned fuel aka tarry gunk, and that's what they get from trucks driven without adequate warmup time, or in constant stop & go traffic.

UPS/Fed-Ex delivery trucks with diesel engines, by contrast, have emissions systems optimized to reduce emissions when carrying light loads short distances in constant stop & go motion, i.e., they work best when given diesel emissions with a much greater proportion of unburned fuel aka tarry gunk.

This makes it useless to compare the reliability of UPS trucks in making stop & go deliveries to pickup trucks. Their different diesel emissions systems are optimized to do different things.

[Jarlaxle]

Many UPS trucks use the EXACT SAME ISB 5.9 and ISB 6.7 Cummins diesels as the Dodge pickups! A typical UPS package truck and a dually pickup (or Ram 4500) are in the same GVWR category. Heck, some UPS trucks are under 10,000lbs.

And many UPS trucks DO have gas engines! The last one to deliver here had an old one with a GMC 292ci six. 🙂

[Tom_Holsinger]

TyStevens,

You might consider comparing apples to apples rather than apples to oranges. Should we add heavy tracked armored vehicles with diesel engines to the discussion? The Bradley M2/M3 has a 600hp Cummins VTA-903T 8-cylinder diesel engine. Most foreign tanks have diesel engines.

UPS trucks are not pickup trucks - they are commercial trucks. Commercial trucks with diesel engines don't have the same emissions systems that heavy-duty pickups must have and, AFAIK, they generally don't use the same diesel engines that heavy-duty pickups do.

The problem I described concerns the emissions control systems on heavy-duty diesel pickups. Diesel heavy-duty pickups built before the emissions system requirement was imposed work just fine. So will current diesel pickup trucks if the emissions systems are removed. It's the emissions system which creates serious maintenance problems for diesel pickups with lots of stop & go mileage.

[Tystevens]

Tom Holsinger wrote:
Diesels need longer to warm up than gasoline engines, and their emissions systems need a hot exhaust to work properly. If too much of your driving produces a greater proportion of unburned fuel, aka tarry gunk, relative to dry soot, the emissions control system will require expensive maintenance and will feed the engine such hairballs that the latter will need a lot more maintenance too.

My wife and I have close to worst-case commutes for diesel engines. Hers involves 32 full stops in a 40-mile round-trip commute on county roads, while mine has 28 full stops in a 25-mile round-trip commute which is mixed freeway and city driving. That would make a diesel emissions control system beat the poor engine to death.

So we're going to get a used F-250 with a V-10 engine next year when we get our first RV. A diesel will wait until we retire.

ken burke wrote:

imfrito wrote:
I was looking at fords today and was told no more v10's.........was the guy just trying to sell me a diesel

Don't know. I am looking for a V10 also, as I want to pull a heaver trailer and don't want the expenses of a diesel. ken

I'd disagree that stop-and-go commuting is hard on a diesel. Repeated cold operation (without ever reaching a nice hot operating temp) is hard on the diesel, as it needs high temps to make clean combustion. But if the engine is hot, it doesn't matter if you are at a stoplight or running on the freeway, the engine will be burning nice and clean. Now, lots of idling can be a problem, but I'm talking about idling for 30 minutes at a time, not 1 minute at a stop light. I mean, look at all the UPS trucks, running around for short bursts, stopping, turning off, etc. If this was killing their engines, don't you think they'd buy gas powered trucks?

Also, my diesel warms up just about as fast as my gas truck does.

[RFOneWatt]

CliffordG wrote:
Ford retired the V10 with the 2010 model year. 2011 and on will get their new 6.2L V8.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/0/453/article/2011_Ford_Super_Duty_62Litre_V8_Gas_Engine.html

"The new 6.2-litre V-8 and older 6.8-litre V-10 Triton powerplant will be the only gas engines available for 2011 Super Duty trucks"

If I'm reading correctly it looks like they are just not putting the 5.4 in the F Series anymore.

[CliffordG]

Ford retired the V10 with the 2010 model year. 2011 and on will get their new 6.2L V8.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/0/453/article/2011_Ford_Super_Duty_62Litre_V8_Gas_Engine.html

[Tom_Holsinger]

The 2011 Ford Super Duty brochure I downloaded several months ago does not show a V-10 as being available.

Ken, I'm planning to buy a used V-10 next year. The maintenance expenses of a diesel are not higher than a gasoline engine unless you use the truck for a lot of short-milage trips or commuting. At that point the emissions control system will start choking.

Diesels need longer to warm up than gasoline engines, and their emissions systems need a hot exhaust to work properly. If too much of your driving produces a greater proportion of unburned fuel, aka tarry gunk, relative to dry soot, the emissions control system will require expensive maintenance and will feed the engine such hairballs that the latter will need a lot more maintenance too.

My wife and I have close to worst-case commutes for diesel engines. Hers involves 32 full stops in a 40-mile round-trip commute on county roads, while mine has 28 full stops in a 25-mile round-trip commute which is mixed freeway and city driving. That would make a diesel emissions control system beat the poor engine to death.

So we're going to get a used F-250 with a V-10 engine next year when we get our first RV. A diesel will wait until we retire.

But if you will use your truck mostly for towing, or you have a nice long steady-speed commute, a diesel engine truck will just cost $7000 - $8000 more than a gasoline engine truck, with maintenance being about the same overall. The gasoline truck will need more frequent maintenance which be less expensive per shot than the diesel truck. Diesel trucks need maintenance less frequently but in great big chunk$. Overall it will be about the same for both, unless you put more than about 25,000 miles on the truck each year in which case the diesel might be cheaper to operate.

ken burke wrote:

imfrito wrote:
I was looking at fords today and was told no more v10's.........was the guy just trying to sell me a diesel

Don't know. I am looking for a V10 also, as I want to pull a heaver trailer and don't want the expenses of a diesel. ken

[ken_burke]

imfrito wrote:
I was looking at fords today and was told no more v10's.........was the guy just trying to sell me a diesel

Don't know. I am looking for a V10 also, as I want to pull a heaver trailer and don't want the expenses of a diesel. ken

[imfrito]

I was looking at fords today and was told no more v10's.........was the guy just trying to sell me a diesel

[imfrito]

Tom Holsinger wrote:
Mike,

We checked out Cruiser Patriot editions yesterday. The wardrobe closet doesn't have the depth we want for part-timing in retirement, and we'd lose too much other clothes storage space for a washer-drier which we insist on for part-timing. The bathroom is too small, particularly the shower (36" would be OK but 34" isn't) and the bathroom sink counter isn't formica.

Also we want a rear kitchen for odor control when part-timing. Right now there are no Cruiser Patriot editons with a rear kitchen. Crossroads' Kingston has a nice one though (storage is enormous), as do Keystone's Montana and Carriage's Cameo. We ruled out the Crossroads Seville for lack of a rear kitchen, and because there isn't enough of a price difference between a Seville and the far superior Cameo.

But the Cruisers are perfect for vacation use. We plan on taking one three-week vacation out of state each summer until retirement, plus lots of shorter ones within California.

As for the V-10, consider what a 38-40 mile round-trip daily commute with 32 full stops will do to a diesel whose yearly hours of use would include only 15% hauling.

mgratner wrote:
Tom Hoisenger,

You might be fooled by your Cruiser. We have been fulltiming in one for over 5 years and we have been extremely pleased wioth its performance. We had one problem when it was 4 months old, which Crossroads promptly took care of. We have looked at a lot of so called full time units with their glitz and glitter. The Cruiser works, without issues, so we will stick with it.

In my opinion going with a gas engine, even a V10, just is false economy, not to mention the increase in power avaiable on a diesel in high country. 8000' feet, 24% loss in HP on any gasser.

Cigar Mike

[sonicnef]

We use to tow with a 2500hd 8.1, and then went to a 2500hd Duramax.

Wow it made our drive so much nicer. It was easier to relax and enjoy the trip with the Durmax. We had tuned our 8.1 and it was a strong truck, but the diesel was day and night. We now have an F350 6.4 PSD King Ranch thats tuned. It gets great mileage. I just can't see going back to gas.

[Tom_Holsinger]

There are quite a few adverse comments in the Edmunds owner reviews section of diesel F-250/350 and Ram 2500/3500 trucks for "Suggested Improvements" about ditching the emissions systems. Here's the owner review of a 2008 Ram 3500 where the dealer told him he wasn't doing enough hauling to keep the emissions system particulate filter happy. And the owner used his truck to pull a 5th wheel.

http://www.edmunds.com/dodge/rampickup3500/2008/consumerreview.2...html

"Vehicle

2008 Dodge Ram Pickup 3500 SLT 4dr Quad Cab 4WD SB (6.7L 6cyl Turbodiesel 6M)

Review

I bought this truck brand new in February 2008. This is my first diesel so I wanted a cummins. I pull a 40 foot fifth wheel camper trailer. About 2 months after I bought the truck I started having trouble with the particulate filter on the exhaust system. The dealer I took it to told me that I didn't do enough heavy pulling to keep the filter cleaned out. Not everybody buys a 1 ton to constantly pull something with. The truck gets pretty good mpg, averaging about 8 mpg loaded and about 16 empty. I am not at all impressed with the 6.7 as it has less than 32,000 miles and is currently in the shop for the 3rd time. I've had lots of issues with the exhaust and now having injectors replaced.

Favorite Features

Exhaust brake, exterior design, 6- speed transmission

Suggested Improvements

Get rid of the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter)

My Army truck friend (actually a Defense Department procurement specialist who worked for five years checking out trucks in a truck plant) says that diesel emissions control systems for this weight of truck are designed both to operate best when the truck is hauling a heavy load and putting out high temperature exhaust with a larger proportion of particulate, i.e., soot emissions relative to unburned fuel (tar).

If the truck engine isn't working hard (which means hauling), the exhaust comes out at a lower temperature with a somewhat higher proportion of unburned fuel (tar) relative to particulates (soot) and the filter is more easily clogged. A clogged emissions filter causes problems for the engine which after a while simply won't work right, tends not to deliver its rated power, and gets worn faster.

This also tends to happen when the diesel truck gets a lot of stop & go milage even if it is hauling a significant load at that time.

Neither he nor I are familiar with the new urea-based diesel emissions control systems of the latest Ford diesels, of the 2011 model year. This problem may or may not be true for those.

Edit

dubdub, I checked again and you are correct that there are no emissions complaints about the 2009-2010 Ram diesels. Maybe Dodge has resolved the problem for those. Given that the Ram 2009-2010 3500 duallies will be outside my price range when I buy a truck in early 2011, I'll still go with a gasoline-engine V-10 Ford F-250. What model year I get them will depend on reviews when I buy.

[dubdub07]

Paul Clancy wrote:
I listen to the dpf whining pretty steady on these boards and find most of it to be from either owners of pre dpf trucks ("keepin mine forever!" etc), those who want to (or have)modify with tuners and exhausts or those who don't own a diesel and are scared off by the whole idea. I also have come to believe it is mostly internet FUD. I believe most manufacturers have the emissions bugs well worked out since implimented in 2007.5 -with computer updates now to where these trucks rarely have issues with either being a daily driver or hauler. Not to doubt your friend and edmunds -but talk with some actual owners of dpf trucks - there is no evil with smoke and stink free diesels. Practically speaking what IS true is the dpf and egr systems are something else to go wrong - that is the price of progress - same as adding a turbo to diesels years ago, same as a nav system or backup camera - another system to fail. Reality is they actually work for drivers of stock trucks. The rest is smoke and mirrors. Having said that if I didn't need a diesel why would I own one-cost wise that would be silly. Surely better to have a corolla for groceries and short commuting-but being a car guy it would be a new mustang for me.

This seems to be true; I checked out edmunds.com and looked at the difference in reviews from 07.5 to 09 Dodges and the DPF issues were all but non existent for the 09 model year. The 10 reviews for the 2010 were pretty good as well.

What is un-nerving is the number of complaints about "death wobble", all years. I have had two Dodge 2500s and never had this issue, but it is very scary that the problem is out there.

[richfaa]

Tom.. We have read the Edmunds reports several times over the last few years and we do understand. I don't think stop and go driving is good for any motor; We just returned from a 1200 mile road trip in mountain areas pulling our @ 14K 5th wheel and we had exactly two regenerations one in the middle of a pretty good grade.It did not slow us down at all. This truck also may sit for weeks at a time between trips and do little else but maybe a trip or two to wallmart same with the V-10.

Now this truck will never get those high miles on it. we never keep a truck that long. we have read all the complaints both gas and Diesel and all I am saying is WE hve not had any kind of issue V-10 or Diesel.