Ecoboost vs Hemi

[charszy]

Hey guys I need some guidance. I have a 2013 F150 3.5L Ecoboost with the 3.55 axle. I have 70,000 miles on it. I bought it used about 2 years ago and have been up with it until this past month. I pulled our camper (30’ Jayco, approx. 7,000lbs loaded) about 3 weeks ago and the turbo went out. I took it to the dealer and they replaced the solenoid on the exhaust. I pulled our camper again this past weekend and the same thing happened. The truck is back at the dealer and I’m waiting for the verdict. The truck does seem overloaded by the weight when I’m pulling the camper and the truck rocks from side to side when I accelerate from a stop.

My father-in-law has a 2006 1500 Ram Hemi and swears by it. He also pulls a comparable size camper and said he’s also had plenty of power. I have a bad feeling I’m going to start having continuous problems with the truck and wonder if now if the time to trade. Has anyone else gone from an Ecoboost to a Hemi? Also, is the Ram just better designed for pulling a load than the Ecoboost?

Any guidance is greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Craig

[BenK]

Turtle, knew that but stayed out of the all too common should I use premium or not...

Admit that am not as up to speed on DI as could be and will bone up on your link later

Also know you know this stuff, so academic for you and discussing for others

In order to gain as much PSI on the piston tops, ignition timing has always been before TDC...AKA advanced timing...this also now has DI squirt before that ignition spark, as the fuel has to be in there before the spark

This discussion started out, for me, on the intake valve getting fuel to carbon up on the manifold side

Overlap is who that fuel gets pushed back into the manifold side of the valve and my point or really a question/comment...why not close it before the fuel squirt?

[ShinerBock]

The recommendation to high octane fuel when under high load(towing) to deter detonation is not exclusive to DI engines or Ecoboost engines. That is a dynamic of port injected engines too.

I will have to say, I ran regular fuel pulling almost 9k lbs up and over the Rockies from Texas to Moab in my 2011 Ecoboost. I monitored the engine with my Torque app. It did not excessively knock or pull timing enough to need to run premium fuel.

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

Ben the DI engines were always exposed to detonation. People just didn't know that.

People always thought that DI fuel was always injected after TDC. Not true and never was true. Sure, at an idle and at a very, very soft throttle setting the DI engine is programed to inject the fuel after TDC. Anything else and under boost, a DI engine is just like any other EFI system as far as fuel timing goes.
If you're more interested in how this works read about it here. (take note of the 3 modes of injection and when the fuel is injected)

The injector in a DI engine just does not have enough time to inject all the fuel that the engine needs under load or heavy load.
We are talking about micro seconds here. The injector has to inject a shirt load of fuel into the engine under load.

There is a reason Ford recommends people that tow use premium fuel. And there is a reason that the Ecoboost goes rich when pulling hard. Both of those things tamp down detonation.

If there was no risk of detonation one could run a gasoline with the worst octane rating around in the Ecoboost. One could even dump 2 or 3 gallons of #2 in the tank to bring up the mileage! You can't and the reason is above.

BTW; motor is all inclusive much like supercharger is all inclusive. I could point at an engine that has an exhaust driven supercharger on it and say, "that engine is supercharged" and that would be 100% correct. Or I could say, "that engine has a turbocharger on it. That would also be correct.
But if I saw an engine that has a bet driven supercharger on it I can't say "that engine has a turbo on it. That would not be correct. 🙂

[BenK]

The old or classic definitions would be an 'electric motor', not 'electric engine'...

My first career was in Industrial Controls where 'electric motors' were the
main thing we designed into the project. Some times we also designed in
'engines' and they were fueled by gasoline or diesel

But, it is similar to the general public's misconception to remake or
redefine the original...

Like Silverado used to be a level of trim for GM Pickups (before the
coinage of SUV) and is now a model designation with other marketing
verbiage for trim level...like a Silverado 2500 model with trim level
LS vs the old C20 model with trim level Silverado...

Or that most ICE's has a 'starter motor' that is an electric motor, not
an 'starter engine'...

Difference Between Engine and Motor

[Fast_Mopar]

Sport45 wrote:

ROBERTSUNRUS wrote:

🙂 Hi, "How many were DI gas engines?" (motors are electric) NONE.

The guys driving motorhomes and motorcycles may beg to differ. 🙂

Not to mention people driving vehicles built by General Motors or Ford Motor Company.

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Sport45 wrote:

ROBERTSUNRUS wrote:

🙂 Hi, "How many were DI gas engines?" (motors are electric) NONE.

The guys driving motorhomes and motorcycles may beg to differ. 🙂

🙂 Hi, and all of people out there replacing Motor Mounts. (on their engines) :B

[Sport45]

ROBERTSUNRUS wrote:

🙂 Hi, "How many were DI gas engines?" (motors are electric) NONE.

The guys driving motorhomes and motorcycles may beg to differ. 🙂

[drittal]

But now we are talking about carbon on the valves with no top tier gasoline with detergents washing over them.

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

drittal wrote:

ROBERTSUNRUS wrote:
🙂 Hi, you don't know how many engines I have worked on????? My first overhaul was on a Ford V-8 Flathead. I was a mechanic in the Army. Then I was a new car dealer mechanic since 1968. I have touched a few engines in my time. In the late sixties and early seventies, Big V-8's had huge carbon problems. Retired from a Ford dealer in 2008.

What's your experience?

How many were DI gas motors?

Top tier gas is formulated to help clean the intake side of a motor. Injector and intake valve cleaners same thing. Doesn't prevent, but limits build up.

Impossible to do with the standard DI motor as the fuel and cleaner never touches the intake side.

Now introduce an EGR port like on Ecoboost. More junk and crud to build up on in the intake and back side of the intake valves.

Just like in the old days, go out and run them hard to "blow out" the carbon helps. Yet the build up is more because there is no fuel washing over them to help clean.

Carbon build up on the intake valves building up tonthe point of not sealing causing loss of power etc...

🙂 Hi, "How many were DI gas engines?" (motors are electric) NONE.
We are still talking about carbon on the valves. Old history.

[BenK]

As for the carbon/deposit issue...ALL gassers have deposits...just check your
spark plugs...they will all have a coating of deposits of some sort

Turtle is again spot on and one of his comments telling of one aspect (to me)

Over-lap and if there is any back-flow...telling to me that the exhaust is NOT
scavenging well enough for that amount of over lap...or the swirl designed in is
going in the wrong direction. A good head tool and die grinder person should
know HOW2 manage that...but...they can only do with whatever material the OEM
has cast into the CC

Another potential cause is that the valve timing to the piston exhaust stroke
has the intake open too early...but that goes again to the scavenging of the
exhaust system.

Do note that with a turbo, scavenging is tougher to manage, but it still can be...especially
by the OEM...who had a clean sheet during design architecture...

There are many, many factors in just that and the OEMs has a much better picture
than us on the outside (normally) as they have the whole and total specification
along with test data...

Turtle...thanks for educating me on a two injector system...now there
will be some fuel in there during the initial compression stroke and
very lean to boot...meaning that there is now pre-ignition potential
that was NOT there with one DI injector...

[BenK]

charszy wrote:
Hey guys I need some guidance. I have a 2013 F150 3.5L Ecoboost with the 3.55 axle. I have 70,000 miles on it. I bought it used about 2 years ago and have been up with it until this past month.

Oh...used...maybe the previous owner(s) had a tuner...and suspect other
potential changes made by them

70K miles is way to short a time to have any problems on these newer
vehicles

I pulled our camper (30’ Jayco, approx. 7,000lbs loaded) about 3 weeks ago and the turbo went out. I took it to the dealer and they replaced the solenoid on the exhaust. I pulled our camper again this past weekend and the same thing happened. The truck is back at the dealer and I’m waiting for the verdict.

either the mechanic did NOT do a good job...and/or the root cause is
unknown and still there to repeat this cycle until it is found...also...
might take down other components/systems until that root cause is found

The truck does seem overloaded by the weight when I’m pulling the camper and the truck rocks from side to side when I accelerate from a stop.

This should not be anything upstream from the diff, as any side to side
will be from the diff back

Maybe the limited slip and/or locker is going bad, etc

If it is the tranny, then it would be more of a shudder than a side to side and
indicates clutch problems or the TC lock (either friction material and/or
the solenoid/controller)

My father-in-law has a 2006 1500 Ram Hemi and swears by it. He also pulls a comparable size camper and said he’s also had plenty of power. I have a bad feeling I’m going to start having continuous problems with the truck and wonder if now if the time to trade. Has anyone else gone from an Ecoboost to a Hemi? Also, is the Ram just better designed for pulling a load than the Ecoboost?

Again, you previous owner(s) might have worn it out via a tuner and/or
driven it extremely hard and/or did NOT maintain it well or all of the above...

Any guidance is greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Craig

[AlmostAnOldGuy]

To the OP:

There are a fair number of Ecoboost owners on this forum and to my knowledge none of the owners here have had engine issues serious enough to cause them to change to another rig. There are a couple of guys who wanted a bigger truck to better handle heavier loads and windy conditions. With that said I am not aware of anyone on this forum who have 150k miles on their truck either. There just have not been enough years since 2011 to accumulate the miles given how most of us drive.

You mention the truck rocks from side to side when accelerating from a stop? I can observe a slight rocking feeling when accelerating hard under load. This may be a 'feature' of the transmission so as a general rule I do not accelerate aggressively when towing. That does not mean I creep off the line, it just means from 0-20 I don't push it. I am not in that big a hurry. If I recall correctly the manual specifically advises against hard acceleration from a stop when towing. Not sure if you are accelerating hard or not, just thought I would share this observation. I tow 8k without an issue, but I have a heaver suspension package on mine (per signature) and LT tires.

Whenever you have a repair it is easy to ask the question 'do I trust this truck'. Mechanical items will fail on occasion. It happens. Repair it and move on. If you see a pattern of failure and you don't trust the truck then maybe it is time make a change. In this case it sounds like the shop may not have addressed the root cause so you are dealing with the same issue. Sure helps things if you can have confidence in your mechanic.

Your father-in-laws Hemi has springs for the rear axle and while that may bring a more comfortable ride it likely has less payload than your truck. The Hemi is a good engine but you will be running at higher rpms. No big deal, but I personally like the torque curve on the Ecoboost which allows me to run at lower rpm and hold the gears longer. If you do decide to move to another rig and are towing 7k and want a Hemi I would consider the 2500 with the 6.4.

As for me I plan on running my truck a long time. If I need to have the valves cleaned at some point in the future, well, there are worse things than that. I like how the truck pulls and am happy with the mileage.

Good luck to you,
Stu

[Mr_Biggles]

To the OP: what is your total payload ? Apart from the 7000lbs trailer , what else are you carrying ? Perhaps you are overloaded and it's 3/4 ton time. Doesn't explain the engine issues, but might explain the handling issues.

[drittal]

ROBERTSUNRUS wrote:
🙂 Hi, you don't know how many engines I have worked on????? My first overhaul was on a Ford V-8 Flathead. I was a mechanic in the Army. Then I was a new car dealer mechanic since 1968. I have touched a few engines in my time. In the late sixties and early seventies, Big V-8's had huge carbon problems. Retired from a Ford dealer in 2008.

What's your experience?

How many were DI gas motors?

Top tier gas is formulated to help clean the intake side of a motor. Injector and intake valve cleaners same thing. Doesn't prevent, but limits build up.

Impossible to do with the standard DI motor as the fuel and cleaner never touches the intake side.

Now introduce an EGR port like on Ecoboost. More junk and crud to build up on in the intake and back side of the intake valves.

Just like in the old days, go out and run them hard to "blow out" the carbon helps. Yet the build up is more because there is no fuel washing over them to help clean.

Carbon build up on the intake valves building up tonthe point of not sealing causing loss of power etc...