Electric truck - tow vehicle of future ?

[Lessmore]

Interesting article about an electric Class 7 truck .

Begs the question, are electric powered heavy duty pickups...ready for HD towing service... far behind ?

Range right now is somewhat limited, but where will it be in 5, 10, 15 years ?


Maybe the future is closer than we think.


Electric heavy duty truck (Class 7)

[valhalla360]

BenK wrote:
Hmmm...telling that you don't know much or enough of how they work...

An electric motor has one rotating part...the rotor.

Yes, I already said that it has fewer moving parts. Did you even read my post? Your statements match up with exactly what I was saying I don't trust. You assume that because there are more parts that IC Engines are significantly less reliable but fail to provide any performance figure to back up the assertion, just a list of parts.

For example: If you compare the modern IC engine with a model T engine, the model T engine has far fewer parts but the modern engine is far more reliable, so simply having fewer parts does not equate to more reliable.

Also, I don't assume that electric motors are unreliable just that IC engines are also very reliable...to the point that claims of reliability advantage for EV are (I strongly suspect but no one is able to provide data) do not have a basis in reality.

Once again, I'm looking for is actual field results not platitudes about how many parts IC engines have so they must be less reliable.

[BenK]

Hmmm...telling that you don't know much or enough of how they work...

An electric motor has one moving part...the rotor. It only rotates. There is no linear movement

The rotor consists of a shaft, metal sheets with slots stacked onto the center of that shaft, wire wound around those metal sheet slots, a commutator (there are some that do not have this) and is all glued together with special epoxy.

That then has the two ends of the shaft poke through bearings pressed into the housing. These do NOT more...except for the inner bearing race and the bearings themselves (round, roller, tappered, etc)

The commutator will have brushes in contact with it, but those brushes do NOT move. This is for a DC motor...an AC does NOT have a commutator. There are brushless DC's, but they are not the norm

That is the sum of all the rotation parts of an electric motor.

To service an electric motor is to check the bearings and brushes (if there are any) and grease the bearings. Some of my designs (Industrial controls, robotics, factory automation, motion control, etc) run 24/7. Some are still running since I left that industry decades ago. They just replaced one old ski lift in Tahoe last year and IIRC...that motor and gearbox went in in the late 70's (of course new controllers replace my stuff years ago)




For an ICE....these parts move. Either rotationally or linearly. Linear stuff goes in one direction at high speed and then abruptly stops and reversed direction in an instant. All the while there are burns (some think explosions, but not so...they are very high speed burns) inside the combustion chamber. The valves open and close to allow fresh charge in and exhaust burnt/spent charge out at very high temps...some times high enough to melt metal

The exhaust will make noise...lots of noise and is filled with nasty chemicals from the oxidation of that burn. There will be deposits down stream from the combustion chamber that are both very hot and corrosive. People have been known to commit suicide by breathing those exhaust fumes...

1. Crank Shaft
2. Connecting Rod & it's cap...times number of cylinders
3. Wrist Pin...times number of cylinders
4. Piston...times number of cylinders
5. Cam Shaft
6. lifter or roller, times number of cylinders
7. Rocker times number of valves
8. Valves...2 per cylinder and some are 4-5 per cylinder
9. Timing chain
10. Timing Chain gears
11. Timing belt on some
12. Timing belt pulley
13. Damper
14. Flywheel and with an automatic flex plate
15. Oil Pump gear
16. am sure left some parts off this list

Now for the parts not on an electric motor, but necessary on an ICE that are hangers on:

1. Water pump
2. Fan blade
3. Alternator
4. starter motor
5. Fuel Pump
6. Fuel injection system
7. Coolant system
8. Oil system..filter, etc
9. Serpentine belts
10. Exhaust system, CAT/DEF/muffler/etc
11. Intake system Air filter/etc
12. SMOG system
13. am sure left some parts off this list

Left off all of the various fasteners that hold all the above together. They would number in the dozens to well over into the hundreds

There is a bunch more 'stuff' that goes with any ICE...diesel has even more than a gasser...

To service any ICE, you have to change the oil, filters, coolant and a host of other fluids/etc


A BIG PS...a good electric motor for a vehicle will have great controller...which would negate the need for an automatic transmission of the complexity ICE's require. A single speed diff and non tranny...or if higher speeds desired/required....a simple two speed transmission...because electric motors can have well over 300% torque at ZERO RPM...while ICE's have zero torque at zero RPM...therefore requires and electric starter motor to get it going...

{edit}...forgot to mention that ICE's vibrate...a lot. Electrics do not and the why some states require electrics 'make noise' below a certain speed so that pedestrians can hear them coming...Plus a good controller/battery system on an electric can have regenerative braking...meaning it turns the electric motor into a generator to slow/stop by pumping the kinetic energy back into the battery system instead of ICE's wasting it by turning that kinetic energy into heat at the brakes friction material

valhalla360 wrote:

John & Angela wrote:


Good afternoon.

High reliability of EV's is documented...although there were some drivetrain issues with the early Teslas. Low maintenance has also been documented and is a no brainer. Brakes are used a lot less in an EV, really its just wiper blades tires and of course shocks. We have gone a couple years and still no maintenance...and of course never a visit to a gas station.

Still haven't been able to find any of the documentation just random platitudes about electric motors have fewer parts so the must be more reliable.

I'm looking for actual factual data that shows fewer maintenance issues based on real world numbers. I've done some google searches but it all gets bogged down in people claiming it but never providing numbers to back it up.

[John___Angela]

Acdii wrote:
When they make an EV Pickup that can tow across country, I'm in. Until then, there isn't an EV made that I can drive to and from work every day, which is 120 miles round trip. I can't sit in a car for very long, getting in and out is painful, which is why I drive an F150 everyday, which pound for pound equates to a Hybrid in gas mileage. Lets see a Prius get 20 MPG while weighing 6000 pounds! 🙂 My previous car was a Fusion Hybrid, and going up to 47 MPH on electric was pretty neat, but didn't go very far.

Mybe 20 years from now, power cells will make it possible for long range travel, but for now, the best marriage would be Hybrid gas/electric. LiOn packs have grown in Mah, while getting smaller, and now there is newer LiPo technology for faster amp draw with less heat, but LiPo still is a dangerous tech to work with. I fly RC planes, and a few of them run on LiPo. A crash with one of those usually ends up in a fireball. Those are from packs that fit in your hand, so imagine what the belly of a Tesla would look like when it gets punctured. When the seal is compromised in a LiPo, and they have energy still stored, which in an EV would be roughly 80% capacity, they flash immediately when Oxygen hits them.

I had a 3300 Mah 3S pack with a bad cell, so took it to the range, and put a 22 through it. It went POOF into a large flaming mass almost instantly. Scary.

If anything, better hope that the cells are well protected in an EV, all it takes is to pierce one cell for them all to go up.

I don't know what it is about pickups but I tend to agree. The sitting position in a truck is very good for long trips. I think that's why I can spend 10 hours behind the wheel in our pusher and not feel to bad. We get out for about 15 to 20 minutes of exercise for us and the chihuahua and that also helps.

240 miles is a very long commute but I get that sometimes that is just how life and employment plays out. There are a couple different Tesla models that can do it without breaking a sweat but these are BMW and Mercedes competitors and come with a comparable price tag. Over on the Tesla forum there are folks who commute north of 200 miles and some who have put on 250,000 miles in four years. They save a ton on fuel and maintenance though. Might be worth it to run the numbers. Then again, you'll be back in a sedan or SUV instead of a truck. If you do run the numbers I would be interested to see how it works out for your situation.

Cheers.

[valhalla360]

John & Angela wrote:


Good afternoon.

High reliability of EV's is documented...although there were some drivetrain issues with the early Teslas. Low maintenance has also been documented and is a no brainer. Brakes are used a lot less in an EV, really its just wiper blades tires and of course shocks. We have gone a couple years and still no maintenance...and of course never a visit to a gas station.

Still haven't been able to find any of the documentation just random platitudes about electric motors have fewer parts so the must be more reliable.

I'm looking for actual factual data that shows fewer maintenance issues based on real world numbers. I've done some google searches but it all gets bogged down in people claiming it but never providing numbers to back it up.

[Acdii]

When they make an EV Pickup that can tow across country, I'm in. Until then, there isn't an EV made that I can drive to and from work every day, which is 120 miles round trip. I can't sit in a car for very long, getting in and out is painful, which is why I drive an F150 everyday, which pound for pound equates to a Hybrid in gas mileage. Lets see a Prius get 20 MPG while weighing 6000 pounds! 🙂 My previous car was a Fusion Hybrid, and going up to 47 MPH on electric was pretty neat, but didn't go very far.

Mybe 20 years from now, power cells will make it possible for long range travel, but for now, the best marriage would be Hybrid gas/electric. LiOn packs have grown in Mah, while getting smaller, and now there is newer LiPo technology for faster amp draw with less heat, but LiPo still is a dangerous tech to work with. I fly RC planes, and a few of them run on LiPo. A crash with one of those usually ends up in a fireball. Those are from packs that fit in your hand, so imagine what the belly of a Tesla would look like when it gets punctured. When the seal is compromised in a LiPo, and they have energy still stored, which in an EV would be roughly 80% capacity, they flash immediately when Oxygen hits them.

I had a 3300 Mah 3S pack with a bad cell, so took it to the range, and put a 22 through it. It went POOF into a large flaming mass almost instantly. Scary.

If anything, better hope that the cells are well protected in an EV, all it takes is to pierce one cell for them all to go up.

[time2roll]

Just a different hassle. ICE you take a few minutes out of your week every week and with an EV you only take the time if you actually go out of your range the few times a year. Next time your ICE is low on fuel in the rain or snow think of the EV that filled up at home in the warm garage. Same with running late and low on fuel... again the EV is full every morning.

Most people with a 3 or 4 year lease will do NO maintenance or even visit a shop. Ok maybe for tires.

[John___Angela]

valhalla360 wrote:

time2roll wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:
Electric has a place but not as a primary vehicle without backup.

Backup for what? Best I can tell an EV needs less service and is more reliable.
Running out of charge has never been an issue for me. Been driving electric since May 2011.

Yes some people have a very long commute or frequent travel that needs more range or charging infrastructure. But if an EV works for you it really works well, no backup needed.
JMHO

Care to share reliability figures (not random platitudes about it has fewer parts so it must be more reliable)?

Fact is the engine in an ICE is incredibly reliable. It's normal to get 200-250k miles with no significant engine work beyond an annual oil change. Most work on cars is electrical, suspension, brakes and tires. EV's have all those things.

For 90% of the trips, a low range EV is fine. As a 2nd household car, I think it's a great option but most people do take trips in the hundreds of miles at least a few times per year and then even 300 mile range EV's become a hassle. If your EV is a 2nd car, it's no big deal as you can use the ICE car. If it's your only car, you have to give up that capability or deal with the hassle. When you are paying a 1/3 premium over a comparable car, most people won't accept that and it shows up in the sales numbers.

Good afternoon.

High reliability of EV's is documented...although there were some drivetrain issues with the early Teslas. Low maintenance has also been documented and is a no brainer. Brakes are used a lot less in an EV, really its just wiper blades tires and of course shocks. We have gone a couple years and still no maintenance...and of course never a visit to a gas station.

We didn't pay a third more for a comparable car but I suppose that depends what you are looking for. New nissan Leafs in high trim are pretty nice cars and comparable to ICE vehicles in the same price bracket.

Our car has a max range of about 200KM but we count on 160 between stops or quick charges. So yah, a little more time on the road for a 500 KM trip. But really, an extra hour a few times a year is not a big deal. One of those quick charge stops is a break anyway so really our trips don't take that much longer. For those buying a Bolt, Tesla or new Leaf the ranges are longer so it wouldn't be much additional time on the road. I would rather put up with that than dumping 30 to 40 bucks in the tank every week like we used to.

I get that some people don't like EV's. They may have good reasons including, distance of average trip, ability to tow, convenience of certain vehicle types like trucks or minivans etc, even the location where they are used, eg in regions where there has been no infrastructure development. But to make blanket statements like they are not useful as a main vehicle or whatever because EV's don't fit their lifestyle is silly. They fit many lifestyles as a main vehicle and yes are better suited to secondary vehicles for others.

[valhalla360]

time2roll wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:
Electric has a place but not as a primary vehicle without backup.

Backup for what? Best I can tell an EV needs less service and is more reliable.
Running out of charge has never been an issue for me. Been driving electric since May 2011.

Yes some people have a very long commute or frequent travel that needs more range or charging infrastructure. But if an EV works for you it really works well, no backup needed.
JMHO

Care to share reliability figures (not random platitudes about it has fewer parts so it must be more reliable)?

Fact is the engine in an ICE is incredibly reliable. It's normal to get 200-250k miles with no significant engine work beyond an annual oil change. Most work on cars is electrical, suspension, brakes and tires. EV's have all those things.

For 90% of the trips, a low range EV is fine. As a 2nd household car, I think it's a great option but most people do take trips in the hundreds of miles at least a few times per year and then even 300 mile range EV's become a hassle. If your EV is a 2nd car, it's no big deal as you can use the ICE car. If it's your only car, you have to give up that capability or deal with the hassle. When you are paying a 1/3 premium over a comparable car, most people won't accept that and it shows up in the sales numbers.

[time2roll]

valhalla360 wrote:
Electric has a place but not as a primary vehicle without backup.

Backup for what? Best I can tell an EV needs less service and is more reliable.
Running out of charge has never been an issue for me. Been driving electric since May 2011.

Yes some people have a very long commute or frequent travel that needs more range or charging infrastructure. But if an EV works for you it really works well, no backup needed.
JMHO

[John___Angela]

valhalla360 wrote:

BenK wrote:
Everyone is untitled to their opinions...and history is full of them that turned out to be off of what happened...My point exactly. Claims that electric is the future is way over stated.

Again, locomotive has been electric drive motors for decades and decades..with diesel generators to power them. Their limiting issue has been power storage (AKA batteries) and an electrical controller capable of handling that kind of current. No problem handling the power and diesel-electric trains have nothing to do with efficiency. Direct drive would be more efficient. The problem is the transmission to get a train with 5 engines and 100+ cars moving from a standstill would be massive, complicated and virtually impossible.

Bullet trains solved that storage issue with live wires or rails and are all electric. Heck, even the mag-lev bullet trains are all electric but not rotating motors.Bullet trains don't have big power demand relative to large freight trains. Big difference with roads is bullet train lines only handle bullet trains. You will never see a large freight train running on a bullet line. Since they only handle bullet trains and due to the speeds they have positive separation from all other traffic and pedestrians, it's easy to build in high voltage power lines.

valhalla360 wrote:

BenK wrote:


Gasoline was sold at local drug stores and hardware stores from the historical material read when a kid

Just because the distribution system isn't there yet...does it mean the technology isn't any good...

History repeating itself...and those who either do not know of, or educated thereof are destined to repeat those historically based learning points...

The issue is not the distribution system. The distribution system already exists for just about every house and commercial building in the USA.

Yes, but limited in most, unless rewired with +50 amp and higher than standard 110/120. Maybe tap into the dry/stove line.

Standard 25-30 amp line will limit charge rate, but slow charge is the best...these higher rates reduce Lith-Ion life and most other battery types on line now

Or on a trip...try stopping at someone's house and ask them if they will allow you to plug in to recharge for a few hours and then continue on your trip...ask if you can use their rest room... :B

Go back and read up on the Graphene batteries and better yet would be capacitor batteries

Amperage really isn't a big deal with electric cars. Yeah, it's slow but 15-20amps for 8hrs overnight when power demand is low isn't going to tax the system. Apartment dwellers will have issues but your average home owner with a garage is already set up.



The issue is that batteries are expensive, hold very little power (relative to size and cost) and they take a long time to charge (even with the high powered chargers).

Again, go back and read up on the newest types of battery IP

Your comment is based on lead acid and Lith-Ion types

Capacitor batteries will charge fast and can be employed as regenerative braking...where as Lead Acid & Lith-Ion can NOT absorb the regen power fast enough...can be designed to...but that would mean lots and lots and lots of them in parallel to do that...well...but sizing and weight will become another issue wit the size of cars they use today...why said full sized pickups/SUVs best for now

And fusion reactors will give us unlimited power with no waste or emissions...it's just around the corner...same as it has been for 50yrs. There are no signs of a commercially viable battery that can outdo lithium.



The idea that it is foreordained that electric will take over because gas took over from horses is false logic. Gas took over because it was better. In fact unlike electric which receives a lot of positive support from the govt and still struggles to sell. Gas cars had the govt fighting the adoption of mass produced cars.

If you have access or the inclination...look up all of the OEM's road maps...not the typical bean counter 3-5 year plans, but 10 or more years out.

Plus check out some countries plans to ban ICEs and replace with electric in the near future

I'm well aware of the plans. I'm a traffic engineer and have a couple projects that work with the auto companies on new technology.

I'm also well aware of the plans to "ban" ICE. Ironically near future is 25-40yrs out. Conveniently long after the current crop of politicians is long gone. It's easy to claim you will do something when you know darn well, you won't have to actually do it.



I think electric cars will do OK once people get over the idea that they are fully functional the same as gas cars. If you are commuting 10miles to work and have a 2nd car, they should be able to produce a basic commuter electric car for comparable price to a gas commuter car but if you need a car that can go 200-300miles (and not come home to your garage at night), it starts becoming a big hassle to try and make electric work. Even if high power chargers become more common, high power means a half hour for partition charge and longer for a full charge and 200+ mile range means you are paying 30-50% more for the equivalent car.

Buddy lives south of Watsonville and commutes to my area...Silicon Valley since the early 90's and drives an old 80's VW Bug that he converted to all electric with lead acid batteries in the trunk, rear seating area and even in the engine bay

About 150 miles round trip without running errands. With errands just under 200 miles

Around 2010, he bought a Prius and added about 500 lbs of Lith-Ion batteries from Zero Bike (Santa Cruz) and now has about 500-600 mile range...

He is an engineer and we noodle Capacitor Batteries all the time and the issue is that the controllers are not there just yet. They have them for bicycles and motor bikes but the amperage is too small for a car to have the power needed for our performance needed/desired and regenerative braking

Conveniently you ignored cost, complexity and other issues in your comments. If it was easy and cheap, there would be no need for ICE "bans" or govt subsidies. Electric would within 5yrs drive ICE into the history books. As a result, I have to assume, this is all talk with no substance.

Electric has a place but not as a primary vehicle without backup.

I don't know. Both of our vehicles are electric. No "backup". They do everything we need them to do and directly replaced our former gas/diesel vehicles. We only travel 16000 KM per year (maybe a little more some years) so they work fine for us. Maybe 2 or 3 longer trips per year of about 500 km but most out trips are under 150 KM. Talking to friends and neighbours, many have similar driving habits. I think there will always be some who have to travel 500 KM regularly but most of us don't. I can't see why an electric vehicle that has 200 t0 300 KM of range couldn't be 100 percent solution for many....just not all.

JMHO

[valhalla360]

BenK wrote:
Everyone is untitled to their opinions...and history is full of them that turned out to be off of what happened...My point exactly. Claims that electric is the future is way over stated.

Again, locomotive has been electric drive motors for decades and decades..with diesel generators to power them. Their limiting issue has been power storage (AKA batteries) and an electrical controller capable of handling that kind of current. No problem handling the power and diesel-electric trains have nothing to do with efficiency. Direct drive would be more efficient. The problem is the transmission to get a train with 5 engines and 100+ cars moving from a standstill would be massive, complicated and virtually impossible.

Bullet trains solved that storage issue with live wires or rails and are all electric. Heck, even the mag-lev bullet trains are all electric but not rotating motors.Bullet trains don't have big power demand relative to large freight trains. Big difference with roads is bullet train lines only handle bullet trains. You will never see a large freight train running on a bullet line. Since they only handle bullet trains and due to the speeds they have positive separation from all other traffic and pedestrians, it's easy to build in high voltage power lines.

valhalla360 wrote:

BenK wrote:


Gasoline was sold at local drug stores and hardware stores from the historical material read when a kid

Just because the distribution system isn't there yet...does it mean the technology isn't any good...

History repeating itself...and those who either do not know of, or educated thereof are destined to repeat those historically based learning points...

The issue is not the distribution system. The distribution system already exists for just about every house and commercial building in the USA.

Yes, but limited in most, unless rewired with +50 amp and higher than standard 110/120. Maybe tap into the dry/stove line.

Standard 25-30 amp line will limit charge rate, but slow charge is the best...these higher rates reduce Lith-Ion life and most other battery types on line now

Or on a trip...try stopping at someone's house and ask them if they will allow you to plug in to recharge for a few hours and then continue on your trip...ask if you can use their rest room... :B

Go back and read up on the Graphene batteries and better yet would be capacitor batteries

Amperage really isn't a big deal with electric cars. Yeah, it's slow but 15-20amps for 8hrs overnight when power demand is low isn't going to tax the system. Apartment dwellers will have issues but your average home owner with a garage is already set up.



The issue is that batteries are expensive, hold very little power (relative to size and cost) and they take a long time to charge (even with the high powered chargers).

Again, go back and read up on the newest types of battery IP

Your comment is based on lead acid and Lith-Ion types

Capacitor batteries will charge fast and can be employed as regenerative braking...where as Lead Acid & Lith-Ion can NOT absorb the regen power fast enough...can be designed to...but that would mean lots and lots and lots of them in parallel to do that...well...but sizing and weight will become another issue wit the size of cars they use today...why said full sized pickups/SUVs best for now

And fusion reactors will give us unlimited power with no waste or emissions...it's just around the corner...same as it has been for 50yrs. There are no signs of a commercially viable battery that can outdo lithium.



The idea that it is foreordained that electric will take over because gas took over from horses is false logic. Gas took over because it was better. In fact unlike electric which receives a lot of positive support from the govt and still struggles to sell. Gas cars had the govt fighting the adoption of mass produced cars.

If you have access or the inclination...look up all of the OEM's road maps...not the typical bean counter 3-5 year plans, but 10 or more years out.

Plus check out some countries plans to ban ICEs and replace with electric in the near future

I'm well aware of the plans. I'm a traffic engineer and have a couple projects that work with the auto companies on new technology.

I'm also well aware of the plans to "ban" ICE. Ironically near future is 25-40yrs out. Conveniently long after the current crop of politicians is long gone. It's easy to claim you will do something when you know darn well, you won't have to actually do it.



I think electric cars will do OK once people get over the idea that they are fully functional the same as gas cars. If you are commuting 10miles to work and have a 2nd car, they should be able to produce a basic commuter electric car for comparable price to a gas commuter car but if you need a car that can go 200-300miles (and not come home to your garage at night), it starts becoming a big hassle to try and make electric work. Even if high power chargers become more common, high power means a half hour for partition charge and longer for a full charge and 200+ mile range means you are paying 30-50% more for the equivalent car.

Buddy lives south of Watsonville and commutes to my area...Silicon Valley since the early 90's and drives an old 80's VW Bug that he converted to all electric with lead acid batteries in the trunk, rear seating area and even in the engine bay

About 150 miles round trip without running errands. With errands just under 200 miles

Around 2010, he bought a Prius and added about 500 lbs of Lith-Ion batteries from Zero Bike (Santa Cruz) and now has about 500-600 mile range...

He is an engineer and we noodle Capacitor Batteries all the time and the issue is that the controllers are not there just yet. They have them for bicycles and motor bikes but the amperage is too small for a car to have the power needed for our performance needed/desired and regenerative braking

Conveniently you ignored cost, complexity and other issues in your comments. If it was easy and cheap, there would be no need for ICE "bans" or govt subsidies. Electric would within 5yrs drive ICE into the history books. As a result, I have to assume, this is all talk with no substance.

Electric has a place but not as a primary vehicle without backup.

[BenK]

Everyone is untitled to their opinions...and history is full of them that turned out to be off of what happened...

Again, locomotive has been electric drive motors for decades and decades..with diesel generators to power them. Their limiting issue has been power storage (AKA batteries) and an electrical controller capable of handling that kind of current.

Bullet trains solved that storage issue with live wires or rails and are all electric. Heck, even the mag-lev bullet trains are all electric but not rotating motors.

valhalla360 wrote:

BenK wrote:


Gasoline was sold at local drug stores and hardware stores from the historical material read when a kid

Just because the distribution system isn't there yet...does it mean the technology isn't any good...

History repeating itself...and those who either do not know of, or educated thereof are destined to repeat those historically based learning points...

The issue is not the distribution system. The distribution system already exists for just about every house and commercial building in the USA.

Yes, but limited in most, unless rewired with +50 amp and higher than standard 110/120. Maybe tap into the dry/stove line.

Standard 25-30 amp line will limit charge rate, but slow charge is the best...these higher rates reduce Lith-Ion life and most other battery types on line now

Or on a trip...try stopping at someone's house and ask them if they will allow you to plug in to recharge for a few hours and then continue on your trip...ask if you can use their rest room... :B

Go back and read up on the Graphene batteries and better yet would be capacitor batteries

The issue is that batteries are expensive, hold very little power (relative to size and cost) and they take a long time to charge (even with the high powered chargers).

Again, go back and read up on the newest types of battery IP

Your comment is based on lead acid and Lith-Ion types

Capacitor batteries will charge fast and can be employed as regenerative braking...where as Lead Acid & Lith-Ion can NOT absorb the regen power fast enough...can be designed to...but that would mean lots and lots and lots of them in parallel to do that...well...but sizing and weight will become another issue wit the size of cars they use today...why said full sized pickups/SUVs best for now

The idea that it is foreordained that electric will take over because gas took over from horses is false logic. Gas took over because it was better. In fact unlike electric which receives a lot of positive support from the govt and still struggles to sell. Gas cars had the govt fighting the adoption of mass produced cars.

If you have access or the inclination...look up all of the OEM's road maps...not the typical bean counter 3-5 year plans, but 10 or more years out.

Plus check out some countries plans to ban ICEs and replace with electric in the near future

I think electric cars will do OK once people get over the idea that they are fully functional the same as gas cars. If you are commuting 10miles to work and have a 2nd car, they should be able to produce a basic commuter electric car for comparable price to a gas commuter car but if you need a car that can go 200-300miles (and not come home to your garage at night), it starts becoming a big hassle to try and make electric work. Even if high power chargers become more common, high power means a half hour for partition charge and longer for a full charge and 200+ mile range means you are paying 30-50% more for the equivalent car.

Buddy lives south of Watsonville and commutes to my area...Silicon Valley since the early 90's and drives an old 80's VW Bug that he converted to all electric with lead acid batteries in the trunk, rear seating area and even in the engine bay

About 150 miles round trip without running errands. With errands just under 200 miles

Around 2010, he bought a Prius and added about 500 lbs of Lith-Ion batteries from Zero Bike (Santa Cruz) and now has about 500-600 mile range...

He is an engineer and we noodle Capacitor Batteries all the time and the issue is that the controllers are not there just yet. They have them for bicycles and motor bikes but the amperage is too small for a car to have the power needed for our performance needed/desired and regenerative braking

[valhalla360]

BenK wrote:


Gasoline was sold at local drug stores and hardware stores from the historical material read when a kid

Just because the distribution system isn't there yet...does it mean the technology isn't any good...

History repeating itself...and those who either do not know of, or educated thereof are destined to repeat those historically based learning points...

The issue is not the distribution system. The distribution system already exists for just about every house and commercial building in the USA.

The issue is that batteries are expensive, hold very little power (relative to size and cost) and they take a long time to charge (even with the high powered chargers).

The idea that it is foreordained that electric will take over because gas took over from horses is false logic. Gas took over because it was better. In fact unlike electric which receives a lot of positive support from the govt and still struggles to sell. Gas cars had the govt fighting the adoption of mass produced cars.

I think electric cars will do OK once people get over the idea that they are fully functional the same as gas cars. If you are commuting 10miles to work and have a 2nd car, they should be able to produce a basic commuter electric car for comparable price to a gas commuter car but if you need a car that can go 200-300miles (and not come home to your garage at night), it starts becoming a big hassle to try and make electric work. Even if high power chargers become more common, high power means a half hour for partition charge and longer for a full charge and 200+ mile range means you are paying 30-50% more for the equivalent car.

[RobertRyan]

BenK wrote:
Wonder if those who were first adopters of the new fangled clean air mode of transportation faced this...betcha they did...

Gasoline powered vehicles were the fix for air pollution of that day...piles of horse poop in the streets...smelling up the neighborhood/streets...piles of horse poop in the outskirts of most cities...that when dried...became yet another air pollutant when blown back into the city...horse poop dust clouds engulfed many cities and choked people out and about...that was considered and documented as a health hazard...of those days...

Gasoline was sold at local drug stores and hardware stores from the historical material read when a kid

Just because the distribution system isn't there yet...does it mean the technology isn't any good...

Also betcha a horse drawn buggy could out drag those first gasoline driven 'horseless' buggies...

History repeating itself...and those who either do not know of, or educated thereof are destined to repeat those historically based learning points...

Pollution and disease were a massive problem back then

By the end of the 19th century, once-vacant lots around New York City housed manure piles that stretched dozens of feet—often between 40 and 60—into the sky. The problem of horse manure had quite literally become larger than life.

And the problem comprised more than just excrement. When a horse, worked to the bone, plopped over dead, the city then had a rotting carcass to address, not to mention the flies and road congestion that accompanied it.

[time2roll]

Was at the Remington Carriage Museum this Summer and the history story at the time was the buggy makers could not see the gasoline vehicles taking over until it was too late. A few tried to transition but very few made it. Business was growing so why worry?

http://history.alberta.ca/remington/