First barrage with the dealer

[Raife]

So we went and spent time with the Grand Design Imagine XLS 21BHE today. We spent about 10 minutes with the sales person and then asked if we could spend some time in the unit by ourselves (me, wife, and 3 kids). We just "played" for about 15 minutes, and then did about 70% of Tom Boles Pre Delivery Inspection. We had shore power, but nothing else. Overall the unit was very nice...we found a couple nitpik things.

So then we talked numbers. He started with the same sheet he had sent me which was 18.43% below MSRP (inclusive of freight charge). He said the freight charge was the cost to get it to them. The only fees were (I clarified several times there were no other fees later - he said no. We do get a 1-hour walk-through and "basics" kit):
- Documentary fee: $150.
- Title fee: $116.75
- State inspection fee: $7.00

We said we had an out the door budget that was significantly lower (like 35%) than what he had proposed and that we were looking at several other models as they were much closer to our budget. He tried to go down the finance route, we ignored it, and said we wanted to talk the out the door price first and we already had the means to pay for it. He asked what we were willing to spend, so we gave the number at 26% off.

He did the "let me take it to my manager" game and came back with $300 off. We joked about how that was not really a change.

He then stated with the provided price it was was $1,000 profit for the dealer (which I didn't believe) and said that was the lowest the the dealership would go. We briefly discussed "freebies" he could toss in, primarily being the WDH. He said nope. He then went down the financing route again asking what our monthly payment target was...we ignored it and talked generalities of how the dealer financing worked. He said depending on how the financing played out he may be able to bring the sale price down some more.

We thanked him, said we would be looking at the other models we were considering, but would keep in touch as our hold deposit was good through Wed (although he said if we stayed in contact he could honor it till next weekend).

So a couple basic questions:
1) Do I believe the $1,000 profit and if true is that typical/reasonable for an RV sale?

2) If I calculate out the total cost (MSRP + freight + fees), the current offer from the dealer is 19.25% off...while I know in the "ol'days"
25-30% could be the norm, I question if it is now.

For reference the other two models are the:
- Gulfstream Kingsport Ultrlite 247ABH
- Jayco Jay Flight 224BH

I am opening up the flood gates to the thoughts and opinions of all of you...

Thank you.

[BurbMan]

afidel wrote:
Right now it's a seller's market, wait until there's a vaccine and you'll be able to pick up a barely used unit for a fraction of even normal new prices as lots of first time panic buyers realize they don't really like camping that much and would rather fly or take a cruise.

ford truck guy wrote:
The market is so crazy now, absolutely a sellers market for sure that discounts are much smaller than the past. Next year, we will see a TON of slightly used RV's that were purchased in the spur of the moment so families could vacation during this pandemic. Then they realize it's not for them, there is NO room service option.

I agree with both of you! Raife has plans for a trip this year so didn't want to wait, and overall I think he got a decent deal under the circumstances. Plus he bought local so no issues about getting warranty work if he needs it.

The moral of the story is there's more to life than just the lowest price!

Congrats Raife and happy travels!!

[Deb_and_Ed_M]

Congrats!! Have fun with your new TT!

[ford_truck_guy]

New RV owners would do much better waiting ( if possible ) till next year to buy.. The market is so crazy now, absolutely a sellers market for sure that discounts are much smaller than the past.

next year, we will see a TON of slightly used RV's that were purchased in the spur of the moment so families could vacation during this pandemic. Then they realize it's not for them, there is NO room service option.


I believe that there will be many. many to choose from..

[Grit_dog]

Congrats Raife!!
Go have some fun!!

[afidel]

Right now I think they're selling pretty much anything they can get their hands on so I don't think they're as willing to deal on price as they normally are. I was talking to a sales guy and a trailer that I know sells for $29,500 every day he had just sold for $37,000, only 13% off the very high 'MSRP'. Right now it's a seller's market, wait until there's a vaccine and you'll be able to pick up a barely used unit for a fraction of even normal new prices as lots of first time panic buyers realize they don't really like camping that much and would rather fly or take a cruise.

*edit* well, glad it worked out for you!

[Raife]

Thank you everyone. We pulled the trigger yesterday on the Grand Design and are happy with how things settled out. We got the deal that worked for us.

Thank you for everyone's input...now to officially join the ranks of RV ownership.

I'm sure my questions will keep coming...

[BurbMan]

Noteven, the Monroney Act only applies to consumer auto/truck sales, not RVs, jet skis, ATVs, etc.

Also unlike the automotive market, many RV dealers will only do warranty work on units that they sell at their dealership. Unlike auto mfrs, RV mfrs won't force a dealer to provide warranty work on a unit just because they sell that brand, they allow a dealer to only perform warranty work work on the units sold at that dealership. There were a few online "virtual" dealers with no overhead that were undercutting local dealers on price, so the manufacturers allowed this as a way for the local dealers to "fight back".

Personally I wouldn't hesitate to buy long distance since I do all my own repair work anyway.

Raife, I wouldn't worry about whether the dealer is making $1,000 or $10,000....as was noted here, if you think the price is fair for what you're buying, then buy it. Some may say, "Fools rush in...", but more apt for a sellers market like this is "He who hesitates is lost."

I get your point that you keep your vehicles a long time, but recognize that an RV is different...kids grow up and get bigger, and it's possible that you will find yourselves using the trailer differently than how you envisioned using it when you bought it. There is a decent chance that you'll sell that RV or trade it in within a couple years for those reasons.

Whether you'll get a better price in 6 months depends on whether demand softens like it usually does in the winter. Having seen the 3 TV network affiliates here in NY all run segments on their news magazine shows about how RVs are the perfect vacation option, I'm hesitant to say that demand will be lower over this winter.

[1Longbow]

I live in Az. and drove to Indiana for our first TT. Saved $10,000 over what the dealers around here wanted for the same unit. It was a fun road trip. We traveled to Utah for our 2nd one for the same reason

[parcany]

Was friends with a salesman selling trailer and was told that the msrp might be $40,000 but the dealer only pays about $26,000 for the trailer, that is why they can dicker with you. When you trade a trailer in they will give you low bluebook no matter how much you have kept it nice or added things to. thats where they make there money also.

[noteven]

Gdetrailer wrote:

noteven wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

noteven wrote:

Oops I didn’t mean government sets MSRP...

Let me re-word my question correctly:

Displaying / publishing a MSRP is mandated by government isn’t it?

Prove it.
.

What is the “Monroney Act” ?

That "act" only applies to AUTOMOBILES.

It does not apply or include Travel Trailers, 5th wheels, slide in campers, popups or even tents which are a completely different thing from an AUTOMOBILE.

Automobile means a PASSENGER CAR, PASSENGER TRUCK, PASSENGER MOTORCYCLE. In other words something the a person drives and carries PASSENGERS.

See HERE

I suggest you read it carefully as it makes ZERO REFERENCES TO A RV.


"The Federal Automobile Information Disclosure Act

Overview of the Federal Automobile Information Disclosure Act

The Federal Automobile Information Disclosure Act, or “Price Sticker Act,” requires automobile manufacturers to place stickers containing certain information on the windows of all new cars. The Act is commonly known as the “Monroney Act,” in reference to Mike Monroney, the Act’s chief sponsor in the United States Senate. The stickers required by the Act are often called “Monroney stickers.”

The Act requires the manufacturer to affix the sticker on the windshield or side window of any new passenger car or station wagon before the car is delivered to a dealer. The Act prohibits the removal or alteration of the sticker prior to the sale of the car. Therefore, only the buyer of the car may remove the sticker.

Contents of a Monroney Sticker

The sticker must clearly and legibly state:

The make, model, and serial or identification number of the car
The final assembly point of the car
The name, location, and place of business of the dealer to whom the car is to be delivered
The name of the city or town at which the car is to be delivered to the dealer
The method of transportation used in making delivery of the car, if the car is driven or towed from the final assembly point to the place of delivery
The manufacturer’s suggested retail price for the car
The manufacturer’s suggested retail price for optional equipment installed on the car
The amount charged to the dealer for the transportation of the car to the place of delivery
The total amount of the last three items listed above

Penalties

The Federal Automobile Information Disclosure Act provides civil and criminal penalties for violations of the Act. A manufacturer that willfully fails to comply with the Act may be fined up to $ 1,000 for each violation. A person who willfully removes or alters a Monroney sticker from a car prior to its delivery to a buyer may be fined up to $ 1,000 and imprisoned for not more than one year."


I have taken the liberty to highlight CAR in bold to make a point, a trailer is not a PASSENGER CAR, therefore your argument holds no weight and is a null and void argument.

MSRP is a price SET by the MANUFACTURER of said item not the Government.

Government does not REQUIRE MSRP to be shown.

That price can be $.01 or a BILLION Dollars if the manufacturer wants to. Doesn't mean they have to give you any information..

The ONLY exception that I can think of that might fall under that "act" would be in the case of a MOTOR HOME which is a RV that has a MOTOR VEHICLE OR MOTORIZED VEHICLE AND RV and can carry passengers.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

[bob213]

TomG2 wrote:

bob213 wrote:
....snip..... Have you really considered how cramped that trailer is going to be with 5 people in it? I don't mean to rain on your parade but that's going to be pretty tight living conditions. ........

Other than full-timers do people really buy travel trailers to "Live in"? I use a camper to sleep in while I am visiting interesting and fun places. Then I am out of the trailer. Families have enjoyed tent camping for years in smaller spaces than a 25 foot travel trailer with sleeping for six.

I never said full time living. And families that buy a tent don't spend $20,000. As stated above, there will probably be a lot of trailers on the market by people who find out it's not what they thought. Just trying to keep the OP from being one of them.

[Gdetrailer]

noteven wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

noteven wrote:

Oops I didn’t mean government sets MSRP...

Let me re-word my question correctly:

Displaying / publishing a MSRP is mandated by government isn’t it?

Prove it.
.

What is the “Monroney Act” ?

That "act" only applies to AUTOMOBILES.

It does not apply or include Travel Trailers, 5th wheels, slide in campers, popups or even tents which are a completely different thing from an AUTOMOBILE.

Automobile means a PASSENGER CAR, PASSENGER TRUCK, PASSENGER MOTORCYCLE. In other words something the a person drives and carries PASSENGERS.

See HERE

I suggest you read it carefully as it makes ZERO REFERENCES TO A RV.


"The Federal Automobile Information Disclosure Act

Overview of the Federal Automobile Information Disclosure Act

The Federal Automobile Information Disclosure Act, or “Price Sticker Act,” requires automobile manufacturers to place stickers containing certain information on the windows of all new cars. The Act is commonly known as the “Monroney Act,” in reference to Mike Monroney, the Act’s chief sponsor in the United States Senate. The stickers required by the Act are often called “Monroney stickers.”

The Act requires the manufacturer to affix the sticker on the windshield or side window of any new passenger car or station wagon before the car is delivered to a dealer. The Act prohibits the removal or alteration of the sticker prior to the sale of the car. Therefore, only the buyer of the car may remove the sticker.

Contents of a Monroney Sticker

The sticker must clearly and legibly state:

The make, model, and serial or identification number of the car
The final assembly point of the car
The name, location, and place of business of the dealer to whom the car is to be delivered
The name of the city or town at which the car is to be delivered to the dealer
The method of transportation used in making delivery of the car, if the car is driven or towed from the final assembly point to the place of delivery
The manufacturer’s suggested retail price for the car
The manufacturer’s suggested retail price for optional equipment installed on the car
The amount charged to the dealer for the transportation of the car to the place of delivery
The total amount of the last three items listed above

Penalties

The Federal Automobile Information Disclosure Act provides civil and criminal penalties for violations of the Act. A manufacturer that willfully fails to comply with the Act may be fined up to $ 1,000 for each violation. A person who willfully removes or alters a Monroney sticker from a car prior to its delivery to a buyer may be fined up to $ 1,000 and imprisoned for not more than one year."


I have taken the liberty to highlight CAR in bold to make a point, a trailer is not a PASSENGER CAR, therefore your argument holds no weight and is a null and void argument.

MSRP is a price SET by the MANUFACTURER of said item not the Government.

Government does not REQUIRE MSRP to be shown.

That price can be $.01 or a BILLION Dollars if the manufacturer wants to. Doesn't mean they have to give you any information..

The ONLY exception that I can think of that might fall under that "act" would be in the case of a MOTOR HOME which is a RV that has a MOTOR VEHICLE OR MOTORIZED VEHICLE AND RV and can carry passengers.

[noteven]

Gdetrailer wrote:

noteven wrote:

Oops I didn’t mean government sets MSRP...

Let me re-word my question correctly:

Displaying / publishing a MSRP is mandated by government isn’t it?

Prove it.
.

What is the “Monroney Act” ?

[RetiredRealtorR]

1. $1000 total profit? No way. They wouldn't be in business long at that rate. $1000 total salesman's commission? Quite possibly.

2. Doc fees. You WILL pay a doc fee. Forget what it's for, you will pay it. The dealer might back the numbers out of a total price, but you will still pay it. If a doc fee is waived for a single retail buyer, the dealer knows that a very distasteful class action law suit could be just one hungry attorney away!!

3. OP, how many available units exactly like the one you want are there within a reasonable radius of where you live? If the answer is very few, you are in much less of a negotiating position than if there are many. COVID-19 has brought buyers out of the woodwork, and dealers are in a position to maximize their profits. If you don't buy it today, somebody is likely to come along tomorrow and buy it for a little more than what you are willing to pay. A double-edged sword to be sure.

[Gdetrailer]

noteven wrote:

Oops I didn’t mean government sets MSRP...

Let me re-word my question correctly:

Displaying / publishing a MSRP is mandated by government isn’t it?

Prove it.

Provide a direct link to exactly WHERE it specifically states that a MSRP is mandated to be shown/displayed/published.

Even IF there was such "mandate" the MANUFACTURER SETS the MSRP so in reality what difference would it make.

Things like a RV are something that must be negotiated by the Dealer and the buyer in spite of what MSRP is unless you do not mind paying MSRP. The dealer and buyer must come to an agreement with a price between the invoice and MSRP that both sides are happy and comfortable with. The downside with the whole process is only the dealer has both Invoice and MSRP pricing leaving the buyer to kind of guess at the prices.

But why worry about publishing the MSRP? The dealer posts it, the dealer will tell you it, but it doesn't mean you MUST pay MSRP.

It is the INVOICE price that also should be transparent and the difference between the two is the negotiating room which is not published. Invoice on RVs is private between the dealer and manufacturer, buyer will never know what that is. There is nothing illegal about keeping Invoice price secret. Dealers must turn a profit, there is no way a dealer will be able to turn a profit if they buy at Invoice and sell for invoice.

If you do not agree with that then perhaps you should try starting and running a business and buy all materials for invoice (wholesale) and then sell them for the same wholesale price you bought them for.. You will not stay in business for long.

The OP needs to temper their expectations of what price they are willing to pay, it is possible that the OP's expectations may be higher than real world reality. Some of that comes from folks spouting off that everyone should get XX% off the MSRP. Some cases you "might" get that, more often than not you are never going to see a high percentage off like is typically spouted by most folks on the forums.

Op needs to set a REALISTIC price goal that they are 100% satisfied that they can live with.

Sometimes that means getting some prices elsewhere and or walking away from a deal and let the dealer sweat.. OP most likely has shown their hand and acted desperate that they NEED to buy immediately, this puts the dealer in control instead of the buyer.. They smell desperation they will not be willing to negotiate.

Hence the reason to walk away.

As long as the buyer can negotiate to a out the door price (all costs) BELOW the MSRP they should feel good about the deal. It is where the funny business of getting a price then the dealer starts tacking on additional costs to the bottom line driving the out the door price above MSRP that is a problem.