Gauging interest in a custom built all aluminum TT

[JustinJ]

Hi All,

I'm trying to get an idea if there would be any demand or interest in a custom built line of aluminum campers. I'm a custom aluminum boat builder and fabricator from South Louisiana. I've had a few campers in the past, and have always been disapointed with the overall construction. I have been toying around with idea of building my own, and possibly shifting my boat building business efforts more into the travel trailers should the demand be there.

What I'm taking about is nothing like what is on the market today. This would be a completly welded out unit. The eniter trailer, frame, and skin would be all welded aluminum construction. The skin would be all 5052 either 1/8 or .100 sheet aluminum, with any and all seems tig welded. Also a sealed welded foor from the bottom, sealing and protecting what ever premium rot proof sub floor I would use. I'm pretty confident I could be price competative with any of the mid to upper level stuff on the market, if not maybe even a little cheaper.

I've got a boat build to get started on, and when thats done, I think I'm going to start construction of a proto type for myself, something in the 20-24' range. Probably won't be till after hunting season, but when I do get started I will start a build thread on hear to see how it goes.

THanks,
Justin

[tatest]

In today's market, 20-24 foot TTs are selling from $12,000 to in excess of $60,000, with the bulk of sales under $20,000. Most of the construction under $25,000 is boxes assembled from laminated wall panels, with stick-built trailers in the low price range. In order to get up to $20,000 for coventional construction, the buyer has to be convinced that there is something special about the materials used, so that it will be higher quality and longer lasting. Very few customers are willing to pay that small premium.

Next price tier is unconventional construction, in this size usually molded fiberglass hull, typically two-piece. Bigfoot isbuilding at this size, as is Escape, and Oliver is coming back into the market at 22 feet with their double hull. $25,000 to 40,000 with sales and production very small, sometimes with dealer support, sometimes factory-direct sales. Larger trailers in this premium tier tend to be welded aluminum framing, fiberglass skinned, but a few premium builders still laminate sidewalls.

Top tier pretty much belongs to Airstream. $65,000 to $80,000 in the 23-24 foot sizes, which do not include the most premium trim lines. Sales are based on name recognition, prestige, decor. It might be really difficult to break in at that price level, until you've established the reputation. Think of someone building his first boat and trying to convince buyers it is better than a Hinkley.

The most successful small manufacturers looking to sell something premium fit themselves more into the upper end of the lowest tier, on price. Also, like LivinLite, they tend to have their special construction spread across a fairly broad product line, and thus enough volume to build brand recognition. A lot of premium build or specialty manufacturers folded in 2007-2009 because it was harder to sell a few hundred really good RVs than it was to sell thousands of cheap ones. One a year, or even a few dozen, it could be really hard to establish that initial market.

[69_Avion]

There is no doubt that it will be a very small market. Most folks won't spend the extra money for the high quality product. That doesn't mean that there is NO market for a high quality aluminum trailer.
As far as "engineering" goes, I have to laugh at that. I've seen many factory engineered trailers that are absolute junk. If the holding tanks aren't falling out, the frame is cracking. What happened to the companies like Avion that built what the OP is talking about? They all went belly up because it was too expensive to do it right, and few people would pay the price. By the way, most of those old trailers are still out there waiting to be reconditioned.
If you look at some of the extreme rigs that come out of Australia, you realize that there probably is a market for a lightweight, rugged, trailer with good ground clearance and long suspension travel.
In my opinion, you will need a coil spring, trailing arm quality suspension that sets your rig apart from the others.

[Gdetrailer]

JustinJ wrote:

bobman wrote:
I think there is a market to hunters. I just returned from Montana and would love a no frills, simple to use camper with excellent insulation for late season hunting. Tanks enclosed and large and a good area to mount solar panels for boondocking. man sized bunks not queen beds.

I don't want bling, most RV interiors look like bordellos IMO.

24 feet with good ground clearance is just about right for getting into places hunters need to go.

This is really the market I'm after, and what I would ultimitly like to build.

This most likely will be something with a very limited market, with only a select crowd wanting or needing what I will be able to offer.

As to some of the other comments;

Roof penetrations could all be custom built, aluminum, welded so no issues there.

My plumbing and electrcile skills are up to par for these type of builds. I also pretty skilled in wood working, though my shop is not very well equiped for such, and I might do better subing out on that work.

I never said I will need to be in the 50K price range on a 24, trailer. It's been a long time since I have bought a trailer, and when I did it was a 5k used rig. I have no idea what they go for, and was just currious what real world prices where on new trailers in that size range, on both ends of the spectrum.

As soon as I can ge caught up with the work load I have now I will get started on one. I think I just need to get one out there on the road, and on the web, and if there is a market for it I will see it quick, and if not, I will have a bullet proof custom built trailer the way I want it.

Justin

My "observations"..

RVrs or potential RVrs who specifically state that they are wanting top "quality" in a RV will quickly balk and walk away from any RV which costs more than the other cheaper RVs.. This is especially so in the TT area, you might have a better chance of selling a higher priced RV to the 5vr crowd.

A good case in point is brake controllers.. Not many RVrs ever considered spending an extra $20 over a Prodigy (Inertia controller) for a Jordan Ultima 2020 (100% DIRECT CONNECTION proportional which used a stainless cable which connected directly to your brake pedal).

Jordan was designed, built and sold by a AVID RVr and for those like myself who were WILLING to spend a few more $ the controller is very highly regarded (I have two trucks with them installed).

Those who bought into the Prodigy (P2 and P3) idea ridiculed the mere idea that any controller could be better than the cheaper Prodigy (P2 and P3)..

Jordan eventually sold the business to Camco and they promptly snuffed out the Ultima 2020 and the next generation version which Jordan was designing..

I also can't tell you how many times I have read posts which folks are upset that a dealer will not drop to "their" (the buyer) price from the MSRP..

My suggestion..

If you WANT to build a highly customized TT FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL USAGE then have at it.

If you really WANT to put your hat into the CUSTOM TT BUILDING ring you WILL have to compete price wise with the lowest high volume TT builders which are already established.

Pretty darn hard to compete against cookie cutter high volume building, those manufacturers get huge volume discounts for all their materials. Everything is done in cookie cutter fashion down to special tables and fixturing which makes assembly a breeze. They save costs in material and labor, you will not be able to match that.

Then there is the matter of "warranties" RVrs are really crazy when it comes to warranty work.. They "obsess" over warranties..

You build it, you better be prepared to BACK your product warranty. It costs companies a lot of money on the after the sales service side of things. It WILL be the same for you, no matter how much time or quality in the materials you invest things break.. And if you warranty it you MUST be prepared to fix it, no matter the cost.

You will not have a "dealer network" nor will you have a warranty service network.. This most likely will cost you a lot of sales right off the bat..

I wish you good luck..

[JustinJ]

bobman wrote:
I think there is a market to hunters. I just returned from Montana and would love a no frills, simple to use camper with excellent insulation for late season hunting. Tanks enclosed and large and a good area to mount solar panels for boondocking. man sized bunks not queen beds.

I don't want bling, most RV interiors look like bordellos IMO.

24 feet with good ground clearance is just about right for getting into places hunters need to go.

This is really the market I'm after, and what I would ultimitly like to build.

This most likely will be something with a very limited market, with only a select crowd wanting or needing what I will be able to offer.

As to some of the other comments;

Roof penetrations could all be custom built, aluminum, welded so no issues there.

My plumbing and electrcile skills are up to par for these type of builds. I also pretty skilled in wood working, though my shop is not very well equiped for such, and I might do better subing out on that work.

I never said I will need to be in the 50K price range on a 24, trailer. It's been a long time since I have bought a trailer, and when I did it was a 5k used rig. I have no idea what they go for, and was just currious what real world prices where on new trailers in that size range, on both ends of the spectrum.

As soon as I can ge caught up with the work load I have now I will get started on one. I think I just need to get one out there on the road, and on the web, and if there is a market for it I will see it quick, and if not, I will have a bullet proof custom built trailer the way I want it.

Justin

[2012Coleman]

One could always take apart one of those "Engineered" trailers to see how not to do things... 😛

[bid_time]

JustinJ wrote:
...As far as my shortcomings regarding my engineering abilities, or lack there of, pretty confident I can produce a box on wheels somebody can sleep in... Justin

The first time someone does cartwheels down the freeway and kills themselves or someone else while pulling your trailer, you're going to find out the reality of "confident you can build a box someone can sleep in".

[valhalla360]

Lynnmor wrote:

bid_time wrote:

johnnyrv wrote:
Start first with a good floor plan then build a good shell around it. I think 23 to 24 feet is necessary for a walk around queen. If the interior quality is high end I think $50,000 would be competitive.

No way am I going to spend $50,000.00 for a 24-foot non-engineered trailer from a guy building it in his barn that could be bankrupt tomorrow. Frame bending, wall instability, and about 100 other potential disasters come to mind with no recourse. No offense - just no thanks. I'll stick with a manufacturer that at least has some engineers on staff, if not signed and sealed drawings.

If you think that the current crop of travel trailers are "engineered" I wonder why they don't last. Show me one built in a barn, I might buy it.

I'm not going to doubt the guys engineering skills but from a marketing perspecitive it's not a plus.

The problem is for $50k, I could buy a new trailer every 10yrs and just throw the old one away and assuming no investement earnings, I should be good for 40-50yrs.

Realistically with a modest amount of maintenance, the cheap trailers are good for 20+yrs and by then most peoples needs have changed so they are looking for something different anyway.

From purely a market planning perspective: When the people saying we need a top quality trailer put down a $10k deposit, I will take thier comments seriously but until then I will go with what the market makes and sells as being realistic.

There probably is a small market for high end small trailers but from what I've seen on the roads, it must be a very tiny slice of the pie and unless you have a connection, it will be difficult to capture that market.

[opnspaces]

One thing I've always thought about on trailers is a way to protect all the roof penetrations from leaks without relying heavily on sealants. It seems like the easiest thing is to raise everything off of the deck.

Could you build a raised platform that the AC sits on and overlaps so that water can't puddle around it?

The holding tanks have to have a vent pipe that sticks out through the roof. Can you build an aluminum tube that sticks up 2 inches from the roof surface then slide the PVC vent pipe inside that tube? This would raise the leak point up off the deck and out of the puddles. In short make it impossible for falling rain to somehow leak inside.

Of course the windows and door are going to be another real concern on sealing.

[patperry2766]

cjoseph wrote:

westend wrote:

Now, this is just a test... Which way will the entry door swing - in or out?

ROFL…

LOL

Justin, I think you should just buy an aluminum utility trailer and build on top of the rails.

We have to let everybody in on the inside joke. Those who don't recall the topic will think we're rude.

But you also have to be cavalier enough to think that the rules of not dumping your black/grey tanks onto the ground don't have to apply to you....in addition to an inward opening door.

[bobman]

I think there is a market to hunters. I just returned from Montana and would love a no frills, simple to use camper with excellent insulation for late season hunting. Tanks enclosed and large and a good area to mount solar panels for boondocking. man sized bunks not queen beds.

I don't want bling, most RV interiors look like bordellos IMO.

24 feet with good ground clearance is just about right for getting into places hunters need to go.

[cjoseph]

westend wrote:

Now, this is just a test... Which way will the entry door swing - in or out?

ROFL…

LOL

Justin, I think you should just buy an aluminum utility trailer and build on top of the rails.

We have to let everybody in on the inside joke. Those who don't recall the topic will think we're rude.

[atreis]

You'd have to plan on not selling many initially, until you've established a reputation for quality and reliability. You also might not make all that much on them initially, for the same reason. (Who wants the first one?)

Let people lay out the floor plans in detail (ala Sportsmobile), have good quality, and there could be a low-volume niche for you.

[oughtsix]

JustinJ wrote:

As far as my shortcomings regarding my engineering abilities, or lack there of, pretty confident I can produce a box on wheels somebody can sleep in. In all seriousness, I have a lot of experience in building and designing things a lot bigger, and exposed to much greater stresses and environments then any travel trailer.

I highly doubt that... my wife has never tried to back one of your creations into a camp site! LOL!!!

I'm not a travel trailer guru by any means, but being able to build and produce a solid unit, that is bullet proof, cosmetically appealing, and virtually maintenance free, I feel very confinement in being able to do so. It will be a learning curve, and maybe no one will want what I can turn out. My experiences with campers have been mainly using them as rather remote hunting camps, some have some to learn as to what eminities are important in a modern travel trailer. My main focus is in getting the basic structure, she'll and overall look and construction. If I can really change what the norm is on that, I can always do what it will take to outfit the interior to where it will need to be.

Thanks again for all the great info. I was rather confident that there would be some interest in such a creation, and now my gears are really turning. I'm looking foreword to being able to start construction.

Justin

How are your woodworking skills? Wiring, plumbing etc?

It sounds like you are very good at aluminum fabrication but there is a lot more to a trailer than the shell.

I would love a good solid water tight welded aluminum shell to start with and finish the interior myself. I have even thought of about putting a U-Haul box on a couple of axles then finishing it off myself. Maybe there is a market for aluminum shells for others to finish? Just a thought.

[GrandpaKip]

But...but...will I be able to pull it with my 2001 Subaru Impreza?

Seriously, I'm looking forward to what you come up with. Keep us posted.