Have you switched from friction sway control to HA or P#?

[larryscsi]

I have been using the Reese Dual Cam for 6 years on two different TTs. My last trip has got me thinking about going to the P3. The Reese has worked well with a moment here or there. However, the last trip was on Interstate 81 in the mountains with heavy Tractor Trailer traffic. I was on high alert the entire drive and had a lot of sway...

Anyone else have such an adventure and then go to the HA or P3? Please let me know if you found a difference?

Thanks.

[BarneyS]

chracatoa wrote:
Snip...

What is the equivalent of the struts in the ProPride mount?

That would be the piece that connects on the outside of the hitch head, then runs down and under the propane tanks and fastens to a bar mounted between the A frame members. It is what holds the upper part of the hitch head in position and prevents it from moving side to side.
Barney

[chracatoa]

Went from Reese to P3 and it was the best decision I made. I had the bump at first but I adjusted the brakes and everything went fine. Like hddecker said you can still feel the leverage of the trailer on your car if you have a half-a-ton like I do. But the sway is gone.

What is the equivalent of the struts in the ProPride mount?

[hddecker]

Wes

I think you have hit on a problem that are some could be creating by to much weight transferred to the front axle.

When we head out on a trip I pay attention to how the rear of the truck feels, if I can feel every bump through the seat of my pants, I know I have gone too far on the weight transfer. As soon as I adjust it back to the point that the thumping from the bumps and expansion joints disappear, I have brought it back to where it should be. It doesn't happen unless I have changed how I load the TT.

[Wills6_4_Hemi]

The Hensley is light years ahead of any friction sway hitch period!!! I have towed 20,000 plus miles and the bump although possible if you have little to no trailer brakes has never happened to me. Anyone who would avoid this hitch for any reason including price MAY have their priorities wrong. You have thousands in your TT and thousands in your TV, now what is your safety worth? I would recommend the HA to everyone and IMO it should be standard equipment on all new TT's.

[JJBIRISH]

BurbMan

“Good grief. But since you don't own a HA and towed with one only once for all of three miles, I wouldn't expect you to have an informed opinion about this.”

I can only say that you are correct that I have very little experience with the HA and no I don’t own one… Have I tried to hide or deny this???

but I did consider one for a long time and searched out as much information as I could about them… so I am inexperienced for sure, but not necessarily uninformed… I might just say very many HA owners and users seem to be pretty well uninformed but apparently still had a bigger budget than I…

Safety defect… in my informed or uninformed opinion, however you choose to look at it, I believe to be true, and gave my reasons for that opinion (that I am sure you have read)…

“Once you get the hitch and brake controller set up properly it's a non-issue.”

But in short, I believe that these are two of the most important and independent systems for TT towing… I believe they should work at peak performance as independent systems and neither system should be reliant on the other to preform properly, all of the time…

It is completely up to each of you to decide what if anything that opinion is worth, but it was and still is my opinion I independently own it and stand behind it… the only question I see here, is I respect your opinion, and except it as valid even though we might disagree…

As far as the Hensley bump, it makes little difference if you have experienced it or not… I have read hundreds of others that have experienced it to one degree or another, to many tondiscount it or not even acknowledge it… I believe each of them never experienced it until they did also…

If I am buying an expensive hitch I am not interested in the law of average, and even if I were Hensley would lose that bet… by virtue of the numbers standard friction hitches I would expect have logged many more reported trouble free miles as a total or percentage…




Wes Tausend


Thanks for the thoughtful and well-reasoned post… your knowledge and perspective is well above mine and I really appreciate the time and effort you have put into your post today and in the past…

But I will admit at least some of it challenges my mind to understand and follow along… that alone makes for a great read…

THANKS…

[Keith_Haw]

Good post Wes. I think you may have hit the nail on the head. I've read that strut bar "slop" is one thing that is said to cause sway, and sometime severe sway. Don't know if that's correct or not but was one of the reasons I went with th PP, price was the biggest reason.

I don't doubt for a moment that some have had a handling problem when the HA/PP hitches, and some possibly very bad. But having logged well over 2 million miles I always look at possible operator contribution. When it comes to mechanical equipment, nothing is EVER set and forget and doing so can be very dangerous. I know on the PP site it says that failure to keep the strut bars properly adjusted, or wear of the bars, can and does cause sway. I've never owned or driven either one so this is just what I've found out researching them.

Anyways, I'm glad no one was seriously injured in the posted accident.

Keith

[alexleblanc]

BurbMan wrote:
I think it's a stretch to call the "bump" a safety defect. Good grief. But since you don't own a HA and towed with one only once for all of three miles, I wouldn't expect you to have an informed opinion about this.

As Lantley has said here and in other threads, he used his HA with his exhaust brake with no issues. Slowing the truck does NOT mean the trailer bumps it. Slowing the truck quickly will allow the trailer to bump it IF the trailer brake controller is not set properly. Losing your trailer brakes will cause a problem with any hitch, since the truck brakes are only rated to stop the GVWR of the truck.

The downside of the bump IMO is a small trade-off for the rock-solid towing stability that the 4-bar linkage design that the HA and P3 offer. Once you get the hitch and brake controller set up properly it's a non-issue.

Of course, I run LT tires on my trailer, so I am living on the edge anyway...:B

how dare you bring up actual long term user experience in this thread! My experience has mirrored yours are most every other user's experiences up to date. This includes using my diesel exhaust brake and gearing down on big hills. No bump here.

[Wes_Tausend]

...

All of you guys are correct (IMO).
I might have some answers.

In keeping with past admonishments to clearly state that I am expressing an opinion rather than "proven" fact, the following is only my reasoned opinion.

I think I can tell you more about why the "Hensley bump" could occur in sometimes in seeming correctly adjusted HA (Hensley Arrow) hitches. Part of my reasoning is due to experiences I had as a railroader. With hundreds of car couplers, each with a little slack, anyone can easily imagine how incredibly important it was for us to control the accumulated slack momentum in our trains. Other than that, and successfully planned critical stops, I guarantee trains are a lot easier to drive than any truck/trailer combo.

Jack is correct that some folks have gotten a nasty bump surprise with their Hensley. I believe it happened to Les Adams one time, and he was NOT careless with his set-ups. Les said he nearly lost it. I think there may be a Hensley set-up step that is not properly resolved for this and so the caveat is not fully emphasized. That the TT brakes lead is a good fix for it, but there must be a subtle underlying reason that makes it necessary, and I believe that reason can be partially avoided.

Keith made a point mentioning that big trucks have a bump, but I am thinking it is more like the railcar bumps than the Hensley bump (But they are related to Hensley because of the strut design - later). My thought is that there absolutely must be some play in the pin engagement on a large truck/trailer to avoid any bind when the 5th wheel jaws close, especially if the truck were off canter during coupling. Any bind could cause the latching mechanism to fail to latch. This "engineered-in" safety slack than manifests itself as an end-to-end bump when the pin goes from towing tension to braking compression during a stop. It could occur smoothly, or occur suddenly if any plate stiction suddenly lets go. As little as 1/8 inch play would allow a lot of momentum for a heavy trailer, and the loaded rigs weigh up to 80,000 pounds including the tractor. (As a matter of trivia, many of the trains I had weighed in over 32 million pounds and just one car was over 200,000 loaded. Slack per freight coupler is close to 3/8 inch each car end at best.)

When a tractor/trailer stops, the forward momentum is not in a straight line even when the truck and trailer are steering parallel. The 5th wheel hitch is located above the rear drive axles. So the forces created by the truck brakes are at the bottom of the rig (ground level) and the pin "thrust" is well above this plane. The result is that the trailer tends to lift the rear truck axle as weight transfers to the front axle. This is mitigated by trailer brakes and having a lengthy wheel-base on the tractor for "leveling leverage". Still, a side view of an emergency stop should reveal a slight lifting of the pin/5vr joint since the trailer axles heavily depend on truck brakes to assist stopping. I believe a similar thing occurs with our RV rigs.

Surprisingly enough, the same thing sometimes occurs in railcars. We have all seen the aftermath of train wrecks. Sometimes one sees some of the cars still jack-knifed with the yet-coupled ends of two cars up in the air as they came to rest. I have actually seen photos of such a thing occurring during movement. I live in Bismarck, but across the Missouri river is a town called Mandan that I grew up in. Mandan is a major railcar repair terminal. Because of this, there is a detector just east of Bismarck that "listens" for flat wheels. (Flat wheels occur if we skid the wheels by overbraking). If the flatspots are too long, they pound the rail too much creating broken rail, or even break the wheel. There is a camera set up to automatically take a picture of noisy cars to ID them.

Some cowboy came in hot one day, and as he slowed down for the municipality speed change, he "slammed" the brakes on the train. The proper way to apply brakes is a little at a time to even out buff forces since the air signal starts at the front and works back. He hard-braked by nearly locking the front cars while the back still rolled freely. The terrific noise from the slack run-in triggered the camera. The camera took a picture of two cars jack-knifed up in the air, wheels about two feet off the rail. Then apparently the cars set back down on the rail (non too gently) and he continued to Mandan. Sobering lesson for most of us operators.

The point is, though, that the cars lifted as they did. And why? Because there is more weight above the couplers than below the couplers. The thrust line is skewed. Connect that with the probability that the lifted cars were empty, and some cars behind them were heavily laden. It makes sense.

So here is what I think occasionally happens to the Hensley. When the TT brakes do not lead the stop, the tow vehicle tips forward and the hitch-point lifts. This "lift" axis runs right through the ball. The trailer does not steer on this axis, but it is the axis that gives when the rig goes through a dip. Then we come to the strut design.

Ideally, for this purpose, the struts would be exactly on this same ball axis. But they are not. The axis for the pair of struts falls slightly behind the ball axis. Those of you with HA's can go look. Lay a straight-edge across the two forward strut pins and note the ball-center is forward of this point. So when the HA goes through a dip, the struts go into a very slight slack condition as their pin connections are stretched apart. Now stretch is a deceiving term here because these struts do their work by compression, not tension. Stretch loosens them. The adjustment nuts are designed to expand the strut length until they drive the hitch-head welded ball tight against the front pocket of the TT coupler. Since the tow vehicle exerts tension in this same direction, the ball can be in near-zero clearance at all times. If it were not for dips, the ball could be permanently so tight as to not allow any movement.

But remember, I said that slack occurs in dips, maybe 1/16 inch or so. Minute slack can also occur when brakes are applied. This is because the rear of the truck can lift during braking, particularily if the TT brakes aren't applied. The opposite of a dip is when the ruck "tops" a sharp hill and again some slack must occur from pivoting the other direction. (The off-axis arrangement of the ball and forward strut pins acts more like a 3-point farm hitch for those of you who are familar with that concept.) At any rate, a slight slack can occur during braking and I believe this hitch-point rise may be accentuated by downhill travel. So it is possible for a braking, downhill curve to cause some slack and this in turn, allows the hitch-head to swing a bit from side-to-side. The proposed definition of a "Hensley bump" then is: When an S turn is attempted, the slackened hitch-head suddenly over-centers to the opposite side and a bump is felt when it hits the stop (the slack limit). For an extra good feeling, the rise also removes some rear tire traction just as the bump hits and when it is needed most for maintaining directional steering.

What can be done? First religiously check struts for tightness. I think making sure the struts are installed as level as possible, as per directions, is paramount, possibly slightly down to the rear. This may be the Hensley set-up step I spoke of earlier, that is not properly resolved, and so the caveat is not emphasized enough in it's importance. Setting TT braking to lead can definately make up for other shortcomings. Carefully not adjusting the WD bars too tight is another, as WD bars encourage lift during braking. I think this last part may now be mitigated by the newer WD method of keeping the front truck axle at the same stock height, rather than tightened to equal load compression to the rear, as I believe was commonly recommended when the HA was introduced.

There is always some non-solid strut clearance (the ball must pivot in a dip), but any increase, however small, is greatly multiplied by the Hensley leverage design. We may use reductionism logic to imagine this. Imagine that the more complicated leverage advantage of the HA is the same as a simple lever with the fulcrum nearer one end. On the HA, the truck steers the TT from the long end of the lever and pries the TT tongue sideways with the short end. Now imagine this fulcrum to become loose. The truck, on the long end of the lever, will flop the TT from side-to-side much more than it would if the fulcrum were centered... as it is with normal non-link hitches.

Wes
...

[BurbMan]

I think it's a stretch to call the "bump" a safety defect. Good grief. But since you don't own a HA and towed with one only once for all of three miles, I wouldn't expect you to have an informed opinion about this.

As Lantley has said here and in other threads, he used his HA with his exhaust brake with no issues. Slowing the truck does NOT mean the trailer bumps it. Slowing the truck quickly will allow the trailer to bump it IF the trailer brake controller is not set properly. Losing your trailer brakes will cause a problem with any hitch, since the truck brakes are only rated to stop the GVWR of the truck.

The downside of the bump IMO is a small trade-off for the rock-solid towing stability that the 4-bar linkage design that the HA and P3 offer. Once you get the hitch and brake controller set up properly it's a non-issue.

Of course, I run LT tires on my trailer, so I am living on the edge anyway...:B

[JJBIRISH]

BarneyS
Relax I made no mention of a mod, any mod removing anything… I make no accusations that RV.net had anything to do with its removal… all I know is its gone or well hidden from the search engine…
The U-tube video was linked in a thread and created quite a stir and discussion to say the least… it has been a while so I don’t remember if the thread was locked first or not but the thread (and many of the post) was lengthy… subsequent searches for the thread turned up no results, so I can only assume the thread has been removed… why I have no idea, maybe the owner of the u-tube requested for it to be removed… all I know is a search turns up nothing, and I posted to the thread as did many other current members that are that are much more versed with the HA than I…

So after more searching the thread hasn’t been removed, but the video has been removed from u tube…

I followed the guys story on his blog back then, and the issue and all related material was removed from his blog unexplained as well… I believe I did send a message to inquire about his Hensley experience and asked about the removed U-tube but never got an answer of any kind…

Link to thread…

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/23698234/gotomsg/23698292.cfm#23698292

link to one of the reported accidents on these forums…

http://forums.woodalls.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/17848178/srt/pa/print/true/pging/1/page/1.cfm

I have read other complaints in other web sites besides RV.net but apparently their archives are unavailable or I don’t know how to access them, so couldn’t provide links to them… add to that I have no reason to accumulate these links just in case someone wants me to prove something down the road…

Again I don’t plan to get into a lengthy discussion or debate here or with anyone so blinded by loyalty that they can’t even bring themselves to acknowledge a well know condition exist… one that IMO is a safety defect in and of itself…

[Keith_Haw]

I can fully understand the bump, big trucks can do the same. Back before auto adjustable brake you always set the trailer brakes just slightly tighter than the truck so they engaged first.

JJBIRISH , I sure would like to see the negative post and videos about the HA/3P. I looked everywhere I could to check them out before I ordered the ProPride but never saw anything except the price and hook/unhook. But I don't want to get in a debate about it either so I'll just go from here and see what happens when I get mine installed.

I wish the poster you quoted would have gone into a little detail about what the circumstances were about the accident and what actually happen.

Thanks
Keith

[hddecker]

BarneyS wrote:
The "Hensley bump" has absolutely nothing to do with the strut bars or their adjustment.
It is a real event and is caused by the truck slowing down much faster than the trailer, usually during a turn, which causes the hitch head to come forward, and due to the linkage, the hitch head will swing to the side and "bump" against its' travel limits which is felt as a bump against the rear of the tow vehicle.

This whole thing can be prevented by having a properly adjusted brake controller and properly operating brakes. The controller must be adjusted to "lead" or make the trailer brakes come on slightly before the truck brakes. This is easily accomplished with the Prodigy and many other controllers due to its' boost technology and the fact that the truck brake lights come on a bit before the truck brakes actually engage.

This allows the hitch to constantly remain in tension which will not allow the trailer to catch up with the truck.

One more comment. The "bump" and "sway are two completely different things and are not related to each other.
In addition, I have been the moderator of this forum almost since its' beginning and have never deleted any post about a problem with the Hensley hitch. It is possible that some posts have been deleted if they mentioned pending legal action but nothing because of any pressure from outside sources. I cant speak for other forums or websites.
Barney

Thanks for clearing that up Barney.

I guess I've never had the "Hensley bump" because I've always had my brake controller set up to "lead".

As I said in the only time I ever heard a bump was when I bent a strut bar and that was me not the hitch.

[BarneyS]

The "Hensley bump" has absolutely nothing to do with the strut bars or their adjustment.
It is a real event and is caused by the truck slowing down much faster than the trailer, usually during a turn, which causes the hitch head to come forward, and due to the linkage, the hitch head will swing to the side and "bump" against its' travel limits which is felt as a bump against the rear of the tow vehicle.

This whole thing can be prevented by having a properly adjusted brake controller and properly operating brakes. The controller must be adjusted to "lead" or make the trailer brakes come on slightly before the truck brakes. This is easily accomplished with the Prodigy and many other controllers due to its' boost technology and the fact that the truck brake lights come on a bit before the truck brakes actually engage.

This allows the hitch to constantly remain in tension which will not allow the trailer to catch up with the truck.

One more comment. The "bump" and "sway are two completely different things and are not related to each other.
In addition, I have been the moderator of this forum almost since its' beginning and have never deleted any post about a problem with the Hensley hitch. It is possible that some posts have been deleted if they mentioned pending legal action but nothing because of any pressure from outside sources. I cant speak for other forums or websites.
Barney

[hddecker]

How about the link to your video then.

Lets have a look at what you problem was.

I know that I have tried to make my Hensley create or exaggerate sway and can not do it. I have gone out with my unit loaded as it is when head out on a trip, I have tried panic stops from 60MPH and evasive maneuvers, the Hensley never allowed the TT to do anything but follow the TV.

I still say that this so called Hensley bump is due entirely to strut bars needing to be adjusted. Every stop and every mornings pre-trip I grab the strut bars and give them a tug, if there is any play, that means I need to give them a quarter turn to snug them.

[JJBIRISH]

Keith

Unfortunately I am sorry I can’t supply links but several accidents have been reported and extensively debated here, and some in other places and blogs…
I am not going to get into accusations or debate about something’s that just disappeared with no trace rhyme or reason that I can no longer link to… but you are right that negative reviews are nonexistent, at least for very long, and that seems to me to be somewhat suspicious itself…

One example of a post and a video that was removed, however it remained available on a blog for some time after, then completely disappeared from the web and U-tube, never to be seen again but it was compelling…


“Hi I am the poster of the YouTube video on the HA hitch. Let me assure you I do not work for any hitch company. This video was shot about 1.5 years ago. My brand new truck, that this video was shot with is a 2008 Chevrolet Duramax/Allison transmission, 4 door, short box. The trailer was also brand new 500miles on it, so the brakes were run in. The trailer is a 32 foot KZ Durango with a GVWR of 12,000lbs. The brake controller was a prodigy.

This is no joke I spent my hard earned dough to buy what I thought was the safest towing experience for my wife and I, as we are spending 5 years traveling.

I shot this video for the President of Hensley Hitch. When I explained this problem to both the help desk operator and then the President of Hensley on the phone, they said it was absolutely impossible for this to happen because of THEIR DESIGN. The videos I shot were to prove to the President that this scenario can and does happen. While not all the time in far too many instances.

I wished someone else had shot a video like this to show me what could go wrong in a bad scenario. I would not have wasted the $800 on shipping, brokerage, taxes, etc to try this out. I only ever heard good testimonials and never this scenario. The HA bump can be a significant thing in the wrong scenario.

My largest concern was the lack of interest exhibited by the company in admitting there is such an issue. They flat outright refused to admit that this could ever happen.

I find one members comments about the fact he plans for a 6" swing and off-track situation when towing with his HA scary. I hope he never has a panic stop around me.

I have returned the HA for a full refund as per their 30 day money back warranty. I do not use the HA hitch and have put on a complete 17,000lb Reese hitch assembly with Dual Cam Sway controls.

My goal is not to make anyone look bad but just to let people know the truth about our experience. I realize there are many HA users who are very happy, we are just not one of them. Perhaps certain trucks, cars and trailers are a good fit, ours was not.”