Is there a Diesel or Gas break point?

[BeerBrewer]

I'm strongly considering upgrading to a 250/2500 or larger truck and I was wondering if there is break point where diesels just make more sense than gas. I know that as a rule diesels are better at pulling heavy loads than gas engines, but they also come with added maintenance costs. So I was wondering if there was a trailer weight where it just makes more sense to buy a diesel. If so, what is it?

We currently don't own a TT, but we've been looking. We first started looking for something my existing truck could pull but we discovered that its not a very robust tower, so we are in the market for a new truck. Since this would be our first TT we don't want to go too big, nothing longer than 29' and no heavier than 8500 lbs GVWR. Some have told us to buy the truck, then fit the trailer to the truck and others have said buy the Trailer and buy the truck to fit it. Its basically the old chicken and egg debate. So we're trying to both at the same time.

Lastly, I've noticed locally that diesel fuel is generally more expensive than regular gasoline, but I don't know if that's true around the country. Is it?

[jerem0621]

agesilaus wrote:
DPF? Not on Fords so far as I know. And you are complaining about costs on a 16 year old truck? $8K is a lot less than a new truck would cost. And just to clue you in all diesels underwent major changes in the 2011-2013 time period, depending on brand, and the new trucks so far are quite robust. And does a 2003 even have DPF?! What would the cumulative maintenance costs be on a 300K gas engine?

You are making a lot of assumptions. And newer Fords do have Diesel particulate Filters now. And I am not complaining. I was just pointing out that maintenance costs are a more expensive factor.

I never said my dads 03 had a DPF... I was NOT throwing shade at Diesels. Just stating facts. Not every expense applies to all diesels.

Fact is that, Diesels are more expensive up front, more expensive to fuel, more expensive to maintain... but if you NEED a Diesel then there is no substitute.

If you don’t need one and own one then don’t make it sound like it’s a cheap to own as any other gas truck. That’s just false.

Thanks... and JMHO.

Jeremiah

[agesilaus]

DPF? Not on Fords so far as I know. And you are complaining about costs on a 16 year old truck? $8K is a lot less than a new truck would cost. And just to clue you in all diesels underwent major changes in the 2011-2013 time period, depending on brand, and the new trucks so far are quite robust. And does a 2003 even have DPF?! What would the cumulative maintenance costs be on a 300K gas engine?

[ShinerBock]

jerem0621 wrote:


This is only accounting for oil and filter changes.

Diesels have SUBSTANTIALLY higher maintenance costs including the following that you will have to address if you keep your truck long enough.

* Expensive injectors (routine wear item)
* Expensive HPOP, Fuel Pumps, Lift Pumps etc.
* Expensive Batteries X2
* Expensive particulate filters that will need to be replaced at some point.

If you only keep your truck 1 - 3 years and buy new you will not notice these added maintenance costs

But someone who keeps their truck for years will have to cross paths with these.

And, I consider all of these routine wear items on a diesel vehicle.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

The reason why you consider these wear items on a diesel is because the engine lasts long enough for these items to wear and still be worth to replace as opposed to many gas engines that will need a full rebuild by the time many of these items will need to be replaced. Some gasers may last this long with a HD duty cycle, but most won't. How much does a full engine rebuild or replacement costs?

As far as maintenance, while it is true that it cost almost twice as much for each PM versus the gasoline counterpart, my intervals are almost twice as long. This is not true for all makes since some have same maintenance interval for both.

[jerem0621]

Lantley wrote:

jerem0621 wrote:

donn0128 wrote:
Diesel costs more to maintain is an old wives tale. Modern diesels with the exception of fuel and oil are no more expensive to run than a gas motor. While diesels dont like idling around town on the highway they are a joy to drive. There are a few gas motors now that are rated to tow heavy, diesels are still way more capable of handling heavy loads.

This is only accounting for oil and filter changes.

Diesels have SUBSTANTIALLY higher maintenance costs including the following that you will have to address if you keep your truck long enough.

* Expensive injectors (routine wear item)
* Expensive HPOP, Fuel Pumps, Lift Pumps etc.
* Expensive Batteries X2
* Expensive particulate filters that will need to be replaced at some point.

If you only keep your truck 1 - 3 years and buy new you will not notice these added maintenance costs

But someone who keeps their truck for years will have to cross paths with these.

And, I consider all of these routine wear items on a diesel vehicle.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

Have you actually experienced these cost? Have you actually owned a high mileage diesel and found these cost to be true?
I kept my last truck for 300K and did not experience any of the cost or repair items you listed.

No, I have not. I also haven’t owned an Airplane and don’t need to I order to know that they are expensive to maintain.

These are verifiable expenses that Diesels will require.

Not saying the are “bad” but to say they are the same as a gas vehicle is not accounting for the Expensive wear items.

For the other poster. DPF Is the particulate filter I was referring to.

BTW...my Father owns an 03 5.9 Cummins ram and he is on his third lift pump, second water pump, and second set of injectors. He is in about 8 grand in maintenance expenses over time. Last year was the most expensive. He spent about $4,500.

Never has touched the motor, just the stuff connected to it. He is right at 300k miles.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

[2oldman]

camperdave wrote:
Traveling, seeing new places and meeting people is what it's all about.

Hopefully it's not about worrying what it costs.

[2edgesword]

Upfront price will be $6K ~ $8K higher for a diesel.

As far as performance a regularly aspirated engine will see about a 10% decrease in power for every 1K increase in altitude.

If you'd like to see some real world comparisons of gas versus diesel at altitude take a look at the Ike Challenge videos on the Fast Lane Truck website:

Ike Gauntlet

I've had no issues towing my 8,800 lb trailer with a gas engine (6.2L) F-250 in the hills of PA (3K ~ 4K feet) but get out to CO and above 6K feet I'm sure it's going to be more of a challenge.

[camperdave]

BeerBrewer wrote:
Frankly, it was this trip that spawned the idea of us getting an TT and touring the country "some day". Not only did we see some amazing sites, we also met some equally amazing people. Well "some day" has arrived!

Indeed. Traveling, seeing new places and meeting people is what it's all about. Congrats on achieving "some day"!!! :B

[larry_barnhart]

Towing it would be diesel. When we are done towing it would be a gas engine. that time is getting closer every year.

chevman

[donn0128]

Beer
Guaranteed a diesel will outperform a gas motor when working. Gas motors are fine for many folks pulling up to around 8000 pounds with a 2500 series truck. Once you start pulling heavy, say over 10,000 pounds diesel wins hands down. Decide the absolute biggest trailer your going to have/want in five years and buy a truck to handle that load. One downside with a diesel is the extra weight of the motor. So again plan on a truck for your next RV and buy sufficient now for it. Have seen people pulling a 25 foor TT with a dually. Their planning ahead for sure.

[agesilaus]

* Expensive injectors (routine wear item)
* Expensive HPOP, Fuel Pumps, Lift Pumps etc.
* Expensive Batteries X2
* Expensive particulate filters that will need to be replaced at some point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Not on my truck which is almost 6 years old. The fuel pump issue only occurs if you get water in the fuel. Injectors are not normal wear items. I just a month ago replaced the batteries on the truck at 5 1/2 years. And I don't have any idea what the so called expensive filters are? Fuel filters? I believe gassers have fuel filters too.

[JKJavelin]

#1- Pick the RV first, then the truck. IF you stick to that 8500 lb limit gas will probably be OK. I've been told that the gas/diesel cutoff is 10,000lb.

Well, my 5th wheel scales out at 10,750. My first truck was a 2016 Ram 2500, 6.4 Hemi, and it was fine... until getting into mountains. Then I was the guy holding up the line, plus I found I was paying way too much attention to an upcoming grade and and anticipate which gear to go to (6 speed auto). Much more distracting than I wanted. As soon as I got back from that Canadian Rockies trip in August I traded it in on a 2018 Ram 3500 CTD.

[BeerBrewer]

What I meant by a break point, is there a point where a gas 3/4 or 1 ton truck struggles to handle a load. I'd hate to buy a new truck and find myself going up a steep grade only able to do 20 or 30 MPH. We absolutely plan upon touring out west, through higher elevations, even hitting Alaska.

You see I'm trying to avoid repeating some issues that I've had towing a trailer in the past. About 15 years ago, due to my job, we moved from Arizona to Long Island, NY. We thought it would be fun and it was a blast, to drive across the country rather than fly. We had most of our stuff moved by a mover, but we moved our vehicles (Mini-Van and Durango) and some of our "precious" stuff ourselves. So we rented the largest U-Haul trailer we could find and pulled it with our Durango, (318 V8) which was equipped to tow. After we loaded it we had the trailer weighed and we were well within the specs, but we did need to shift the load around a tad. My wife drove the Mini-Van and drove the Durango. For the most part the Durango did fine, except for the climb up to Flagstaff and on the "switch-back" on Rte 40 headed east out of Tennessee. When doing the climb up to Flagstaff I had trouble maintaining speed, I think I was only doing like 20 or 30 mph. The engine temp was climbing real high, so high that I had the heat blasting and it was summer. I had the opposite problem When we hit the "switch-back" coming out of Tennessee, I had trouble keeping my speed down and I white knuckled it all the way down. I'd rather not relive either experience if possible. Even though we had a few "issues" we had a blast. Frankly, it was this trip that spawned the idea of us getting an TT and touring the country "some day". Not only did we see some amazing sites, we also met some equally amazing people. Well "some day" has arrived!

I currently do most of the maintenance on my vehicles now and plan on doing so in the future. So the fact that a diesel contains more oil or needs some extra things done doesn't concern me at all. Unfortunately upfront costs due matter to us, but its "Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it"......

[TimnJo]

jerem0621 wrote:


This is only accounting for oil and filter changes.

Diesels have SUBSTANTIALLY higher maintenance costs including the following that you will have to address if you keep your truck long enough.

* Expensive injectors (routine wear item)
* Expensive HPOP, Fuel Pumps, Lift Pumps etc.
* Expensive Batteries X2
* Expensive particulate filters that will need to be replaced at some point.

If you only keep your truck 1 - 3 years and buy new you will not notice these added maintenance costs

But someone who keeps their truck for years will have to cross paths with these.

And, I consider all of these routine wear items on a diesel vehicle.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

My previous 2008 Silverado 2500 diesel that I bought used in 2009 and traded in on my current tow vehicle about this time last year, required none of those items, even had the original batteries. Only costs were tires, brakes, fuel and oil changes over the 120,000 KM I ran it.

[Lantley]

jerem0621 wrote:

donn0128 wrote:
Diesel costs more to maintain is an old wives tale. Modern diesels with the exception of fuel and oil are no more expensive to run than a gas motor. While diesels dont like idling around town on the highway they are a joy to drive. There are a few gas motors now that are rated to tow heavy, diesels are still way more capable of handling heavy loads.

This is only accounting for oil and filter changes.

Diesels have SUBSTANTIALLY higher maintenance costs including the following that you will have to address if you keep your truck long enough.

* Expensive injectors (routine wear item)
* Expensive HPOP, Fuel Pumps, Lift Pumps etc.
* Expensive Batteries X2
* Expensive particulate filters that will need to be replaced at some point.

If you only keep your truck 1 - 3 years and buy new you will not notice these added maintenance costs

But someone who keeps their truck for years will have to cross paths with these.

And, I consider all of these routine wear items on a diesel vehicle.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

Have you actually experienced these cost? Have you actually owned a high mileage diesel and found these cost to be true?
I kept my last truck for 300K and did not experience any of the cost or repair items you listed.

[colliehauler]

2oldman wrote:

BeerBrewer wrote:
.. diesel fuel is generally more expensive than regular gasoline, but I don't know if that's true around the country. Is it?

Except in summer.

It's always higher here summer and winter, winter by over a buck a gallon. Currently gas is 1.95 and Diesel 2.98 in Mcpherson