Lippert frames

[LVJJJ]

Been towing for 30 years, but never heard of a Lippert frame. Seems like most of the comments are negative.

So, what is a Lippert frame?

[SoundGuy]

Huntindog wrote:
As for your other pic showing a person welding and stating he is not a robot... That is true. But it is also true that he is NOT welding a 3 piece I beam together.

If you're so quick to criticize at least direct that criticism at the right person - me. I posted that pic, not RC, but nowhere did I say that person was welding a frame, it was merely in response to JCR-1 who said he thought all welding was now done by robots, which is clearly not the case.

[Huntindog]

Ralph Cramden wrote:

Huntindog wrote:
I do not know what "rolled" means. I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs.
I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame.
It is what I consider to be a "normal" I beam.

Simply put there are two methods used to make a structural shape. Hot rolled or cold rolled. Specifically in relation to an H or I which are a complex shape, there are two ways to make them. Hot rolled is steel goes in one end of a plant, and an I or H comes out the other. Its then shipped to a fabricator who cuts it, drills it, fabricates it.

The other way to make an H or I, is you take 3 pieces of plate or sheet, and weld them together. That's it, two options. You can cold roll a C, or an angle, or a Z or a bar, and a lot of other shapes, but you can not cold roll an H or I. Those are the simple versions. This Article explains it better than I can.

All of that said I am not saying an engineered/machine welded member is a bad thing, as I have built a couple million square feet of pre-engineered industrial facilities. Almost every beam, frame or column, and almost every structural element in one, is engineered and made from machine welded shapes. We have hung some overhead cranes from them at times. Its all about it being engineered correctly.

I don't know how one can say "I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs. I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame."

Frankly if the equipment used to weld those 3 pieces together is maintained and set up correctly, you're not going to be able to tell visually as that weld will be smooth as a babies rear end. I've seen a few of those machines at some of the fabricators that actually can grind the welds as part of the process, and once painted you need to no what you're looking at to tell. But it can usually be determined simply by "size".

Here is why I think you're mistaken and the 10" high frame rail in your picture is a machine welded piece, and not a conventional hot rolled member. They make hot rolled H shapes (we call them a wide flange or W) or I shapes (A Jr / I, or S), only in specific readily availible sizes and weights. Going by your picture the flange width is roughly 2-1/2" wide. I determined that by comparison to the two fittings installed on the black tank. One is 1-1/2", the other 3".

There is no H or I which is hot rolled that a company like Lippert could buy from a hot mill, that would be those dimensions in a 10" height. It simply does not exist unless its a custom hot rolled shape and cost would not typically allow that.

In your picture you have a 10" height, a 2-1/2" flange width, and a 1/4" thickness both at flange and web based on the measurements you took.

Here is what you can get from a hot mill.

There are a couple dozen made with a 10" size in a wide flange, but none including the lightest which is a W10X12(lbs per ft), has a flange width smaller than 3.960 inches. Then they go up from there. The only size in a wide flange that has anywhere close to 1/4" average thickness at both flange and web is a W10X15, with a 4.00 flange width. The web is .230 and the flange is .269

There are only two readily available sizes in a Jr/I/S with a 10" height.
S10X25.4 or 10.000X4.661, The flange is 4.661 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .311
S10X35 or 10.000X4.944, The flange is 4.944 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .594

That's why I think your main rail is an engineered / fabricated / machine welded shape. That is unless Lippert is having hot rolled shapes custom made at great expense, or own a hot mill and making their own. Not sure why they would want to. The size is not available unless its fabricated. Maybe I'm wrong.

A couple of seemingly small observations.
My Flanges are 2 3/4" wide, not 2 1/2"
And what you are stating is a but weld is not.
It is a cambering weld.

As for your other pic showing a person welding and stating he is not a robot... That is true. But it is also true that he is NOT welding a 3 piece I beam together.

I can find ZERO evidence that my frame is a so called welded I beam. And I have been into the underbelly for insulation, Heat tape and wiring upgrades.
If it were a welded I beam, and it was done so perfectly that it is impossible to tell by looking at it.... That would make it a pretty good one. IOW....Why gripe about it?

[Lynnmor]

Look inside the tongue area for a sticker.

[Bob_E_]

From my AISC manual, a W10x15 has 1/4" web and flanges, but the flanges are 4" wide. That could be cut to width pretty easily with a plasma cutter though.

[myredracer]

Ralph Cramden wrote:
Simply put there are two methods used to make a structural shape. Hot rolled or cold rolled. Specifically in relation to an H or I which are a complex shape, there are two ways to make them. Hot rolled is steel goes in one end of a plant, and an I or H comes out the other. Its then shipped to a fabricator who cuts it, drills it, fabricates it.

Great info. and analysis!

One thing I've noticed in the rolled beams is that in longer trailers, they aren't one continuous length. They're a couple of lengths with the ends butt welded together. It's done so well it's hard to see it and looks too good to be done by Lippert. Is there a maximum shipping length and it is actually done by Lippert or is it done by the supplier? These welds don't ever seem to be a problem and I would think are critical to be done properly. I've never seen or heard of a structural beam in a building not being one continuous length.

The 3-piece welded beams are usually on ultralite TTs and are easy to spot at an RV show or on a dealers lot by running a finger along the weld or looking it it. But just why do they use these beams? Are they lighter than an equivalent dimension rolled beam? I would expect a rolled beam would have a higher grade/strength for an equiv. dimension and maybe cost more per foot? But then the cost of welding 3 pieces of flat steel together to make a beam has to be costly and labor intensive. The 6" welded I-beams we had on a previous TT might as well have been made from rubber they flexed so much.

Cold rolled beams are hot rolled beams that undergo further processing and improves tolerances and appearance and would cost more so doubt they are used in any RV frames. Flat steel is hot rolled tho. and is what the welded beams would be made from (the finish is smoother on them). I don't think cold rolling improves the strength and any difference in strength would be from different grades of steel used.

[SoundGuy]

LVJJJ wrote:
Still have not heard if my Trail Cruiser is built on one, or how do you identify one?

In 2006 we bought a new 2007 RVision C21RBH TrailCruiser which we owned for a couple of seasons, eventually got rid of it because I hated having to deal with tenting but also because it was exhibiting a mold / mildew smell in the small front storage compartment and because the tires were wearing unevenly - perhaps an axle issue, perhaps a frame issue, I can't say. I don't recall who made the frame but if you own a 2005 it's a little late to be concerned about it now. 😉

[SoundGuy]

JCR-1 wrote:
I think most all these products today are welded by robots.. not unskilled laborers.. hence unemployment.

Screen shot taken directly from the Lippert Towable Chassis website ...



This guy sure doesn't look like a robot to me. :W

BTW, what unemployment? :h ... these days the RV industry in and around Goshen can't find enough people to work in their plants. I doubt "skill" has much to do with it. 😉

[gmw_photos]

LVJJJ wrote:

deltabravo wrote:

LVJJJ wrote:
Been towing for 30 years, but never heard of a Lippert frame. Seems like most of the comments are negative.

So, what is a Lippert frame?

It's a frame made by Lippert Components Inc (aka LCI)

Well duh. I know it was a stupid question, but was wondering why they seem to be not so good, understand now.

Still have not heard if my Trail Cruiser is built on one, or how do you identify one?

If you look at the picture of mine in the post earlier, it has a sticker on it.

As to whether they are any good or not, as you can see, there are opinions all over the map.

[LVJJJ]

deltabravo wrote:

LVJJJ wrote:
Been towing for 30 years, but never heard of a Lippert frame. Seems like most of the comments are negative.

So, what is a Lippert frame?

It's a frame made by Lippert Components Inc (aka LCI)

Well duh. I know it was a stupid question, but was wondering why they seem to be not so good, understand now.

Still have not heard if my Trail Cruiser is built on one, or how do you identify one?

[Lynnmor]

Here is a photo of a welded "I-beam" frame. In this case, the welding is not as smooth as a baby's rear. The rust line is a crack from the cross member welded to the opposite side and is stressing the thin vertical member. I think you will find that the mills actually supply the steel on large coils. The coiled steel is run thru straighteners and into a machine that does the welding.

[deltabravo]

LVJJJ wrote:
Been towing for 30 years, but never heard of a Lippert frame. Seems like most of the comments are negative.

So, what is a Lippert frame?

It's a frame made by Lippert Components Inc (aka LCI)

[JCR-1]

I think most all these products today are welded by robots.. not unskilled laborers.. hence unemployment.

[SoundGuy]

Huntindog wrote:
I do not know what "rolled" means. I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs.
I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame.
It is what I consider to be a "normal" I beam.

Ralph Cramden wrote:
Simply put there are two methods used to make a structural shape. Hot rolled or cold rolled. Specifically in relation to an H or I which are a complex shape, there are two ways to make them. Hot rolled is steel goes in one end of a plant, and an I or H comes out the other. Its then shipped to a fabricator who cuts it, drills it, fabricates it.

The other way to make an H or I, is you take 3 pieces of plate or sheet, and weld them together. That's it, two options. You can cold roll a C, or an angle, or a Z or a bar, and a lot of other shapes, but you can not cold roll an H or I. Those are the simple versions. This Article explains it better than I can.



That's why I think your main rail is an engineered / fabricated / machine welded shape. That is unless Lippert is having hot rolled shapes custom made at great expense, or own a hot mill and making their own. Not sure why they would want to. The size is not available unless its fabricated. Maybe I'm wrong.

I doubt you are wrong - sounds like an entirely reasonable explanation to me as it's clear you know far more about this subject than any of us! Thanks for the detail - doesn't change the fact that the frame on my own Coachmen has failed but at least I have some better understanding why it failed.

[Ralph_Cramden]

Huntindog wrote:
I do not know what "rolled" means. I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs.
I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame.
It is what I consider to be a "normal" I beam.

Simply put there are two methods used to make a structural shape. Hot rolled or cold rolled. Specifically in relation to an H or I which are a complex shape, there are two ways to make them. Hot rolled is steel goes in one end of a plant, and an I or H comes out the other. Its then shipped to a fabricator who cuts it, drills it, fabricates it.

The other way to make an H or I, is you take 3 pieces of plate or sheet, and weld them together. That's it, two options. You can cold roll a C, or an angle, or a Z or a bar, and a lot of other shapes, but you can not cold roll an H or I. Those are the simple versions. This Article explains it better than I can.

All of that said I am not saying an engineered/machine welded member is a bad thing, as I have built a couple million square feet of pre-engineered industrial facilities. Almost every beam, frame or column, and almost every structural element in one, is engineered and made from machine welded shapes. We have hung some overhead cranes from them at times. Its all about it being engineered correctly.

I don't know how one can say "I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs. I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame."

Frankly if the equipment used to weld those 3 pieces together is maintained and set up correctly, you're not going to be able to tell visually as that weld will be smooth as a babies rear end. I've seen a few of those machines at some of the fabricators that actually can grind the welds as part of the process, and once painted you need to no what you're looking at to tell. But it can usually be determined simply by "size".

Here is why I think you're mistaken and the 10" high frame rail in your picture is a machine welded piece, and not a conventional hot rolled member. They make hot rolled H shapes (we call them a wide flange or W) or I shapes (A Jr / I, or S), only in specific readily availible sizes and weights. Going by your picture the flange width is roughly 2-1/2" wide. I determined that by comparison to the two fittings installed on the black tank. One is 1-1/2", the other 3".

There is no H or I which is hot rolled that a company like Lippert could buy from a hot mill, that would be those dimensions in a 10" height. It simply does not exist unless its a custom hot rolled shape and cost would not typically allow that.

In your picture you have a 10" height, a 2-1/2" flange width, and a 1/4" thickness both at flange and web based on the measurements you took.

Here is what you can get from a hot mill.

There are a couple dozen made with a 10" size in a wide flange, but none including the lightest which is a W10X12(lbs per ft), has a flange width smaller than 3.960 inches. Then they go up from there. The only size in a wide flange that has anywhere close to 1/4" average thickness at both flange and web is a W10X15, with a 4.00 flange width. The web is .230 and the flange is .269

There are only two readily available sizes in a Jr/I/S with a 10" height.
S10X25.4 or 10.000X4.661, The flange is 4.661 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .311
S10X35 or 10.000X4.944, The flange is 4.944 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .594

That's why I think your main rail is an engineered / fabricated / machine welded shape. That is unless Lippert is having hot rolled shapes custom made at great expense, or own a hot mill and making their own. Not sure why they would want to. The size is not available unless its fabricated. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Huntindog]

sgfrye wrote:

SoundGuy wrote:

SidecarFlip wrote:
Build them cheap, stack them deep and build them with unskilled welders. Recipe for disaster.

Why would you expect anything else, after all YOU asked for it - "you" meaning you and I and all the rest of us who want as much trailer as we can get for as little cost as possible. That's the recipe for disaster. :W

X2 on this. in general the public who buy these products want cheaper prices on everything . in the manufacturing industry no matter what it is. appliances, autos, rv's the factors going into the retail price involve are complex but material cost, labor,advertising, warranty coverages are what sets the prices.

I gotta sorta agree with this. My Sabre has a stout frame because Sabre requested it from Lippert. Sabre is no longer in the TT business. Could be that they had a hard time selling them for enough to turn a profit with some of the upgraded stuff they were building.