Lithium Battery Charging System

[CYCLEPATH]

It is time for a new battery in my '04 Lance 921. I am looking at an Interstate battery they sell up the road. But through my research into charging systems/problems, I got to thinking about Lithium batteries. Being a retired cargo pilot, my knowledge about lithium batteries is that if they catch fire, they become quite the spectacle. I was actually surprised they were using them in campers.

My question is, are they worth the price? What do you have to change/do to your charging system to be able to charge one, and is that added expense worth it? I have a PD charger/inverter, and charge wizard now. Is this what you have to change out to be able to charge the lithium battery? And what would take their place? Will the truck alternator charge the Lithium battery? Will the current battery separator need to be changed? It seems a lot easier to just install a new Interstate. I don't do a lot of boondocking, but that could always change in the future. Thank you.

[3_tons]

Well, I all can say is we’ve all seen this kinda LiFePO4 ‘fear porn’ grow legs before - and sadly (recall…), always by a myopic determined few who lack any actual hands-on experience, while endlessly ‘promoting’ one’s own ‘off-topic’ alternative battery type…Reams of LFP related, wasted past pages (over a time…) used as an infirmary for bogie mis-directs and keyboard brinkmanship (typically employing the patina of ‘sincerity’ - lol) will testify to this sad stream of mischief…JMHO (having witnessed such…).

3 tons

[StirCrazy]

JoeChiOhki wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:


your about 4 years old with thoes prices, you can cut the battery prices in half or more now days. unless you insist on buying battle born (which theres nothing wrong with if thats what you want, but quality can be had for a lot less today) . my charging system cost me nothing, just a switch of a jumper on one and a different programing on the other.. I had to replace my power centre in my old camper anyways so I bought one that was LFP compatable, and I did the same when I decided to add solar. My 5th wheel will probably cost me about what you said for charging as I have to change my converter and my solar charger but it will only be about 12-1500 bucks for around 900AH of battery.

You can cut the prices in half by buying inferior products, those prices were taken from a direct lookup of the current Battleborn battery prices.

Anything else is cheap chinese junk and at risk of a cell failure and fire risk.

I honestly don't have a horse in the race, as I do not think the technology is ready yet to adopt at its current price points for all but those that like to experiment with new things, (A proper full disposal cost should be included in the purchases of all lithium batteries from my point of view including the cost of 90-95% component recycling), nor do I honestly care if you go cheap and end up burning your rig to the ground to save a few dollars, I can only offer up advice to not take cheap shortcuts and let folks decide what degree of risk is acceptable to them.

TL;DR I don't give two ***** if you decide to cheap out and kill yourself, I can only suggest that you don't.

do you actualy thing battle born has a factory in the good old USofA and manufactures there own cells. hate to break it to you but thoes parts are all chinese made and only asembled by battle born (and it wouldnt surprice me to find out the whole thing is assembled in china and shipped to battleborn)they are not any more superior to any other clindrical cell battery on the market using grade A cells. the difference with using prismatic cells is a lot less labour to manufacture them resulting in a lot less cost which is why the prices have been dropping , well as well shipping prices have come down as well. unless you are charging at levels above 1C you wont see the difference between a battery mader of hundreds cilindrical cells and one made of four prismatic cells, aside from there are more solder points in the clindrical build to fail.

as for fire rish they are both LiFePO4 make up so not the risk the old cobalt made, and just so you know for your own peace of mine a LFP battery is way more recycliable then a lead acid battery so does that mean we should start charging more for lead acid because of the non recyclable part?

[joeshmoe]

3 tons wrote:

jaycocreek wrote:
Everyone compares to Battleborn but fails to mention they use cylindrical cells,not prismatic..

Very true, costlier grade ‘A’ cylindrical cells of high uniformity (ain’t no free lunch), as does Aims…

3 tons

If I'm not mistaken, those Battle Born cells (and all LFP cells for that matter) come from China, but are assembled here?

[JoeChiOhki]

3 tons wrote:
Seems more like an excursion into that of ‘higher virtue’ than ‘hands-on’ battery talk 🙂 JMHO….

3 tons

You are very likely spot on. 🙂

[3_tons]

Seems more like an excursion into that of ‘higher virtue’ than ‘hands-on’ battery talk 🙂 JMHO….

3 tons

[JoeChiOhki]

StirCrazy wrote:


your about 4 years old with thoes prices, you can cut the battery prices in half or more now days. unless you insist on buying battle born (which theres nothing wrong with if thats what you want, but quality can be had for a lot less today) . my charging system cost me nothing, just a switch of a jumper on one and a different programing on the other.. I had to replace my power centre in my old camper anyways so I bought one that was LFP compatable, and I did the same when I decided to add solar. My 5th wheel will probably cost me about what you said for charging as I have to change my converter and my solar charger but it will only be about 12-1500 bucks for around 900AH of battery.

You can cut the prices in half by buying inferior products, those prices were taken from a direct lookup of the current Battleborn battery prices.

Anything else is cheap chinese junk and at risk of a cell failure and fire risk.

I honestly don't have a horse in the race, as I do not think the technology is ready yet to adopt at its current price points for all but those that like to experiment with new things, (A proper full disposal cost should be included in the purchases of all lithium batteries from my point of view including the cost of 90-95% component recycling), nor do I honestly care if you go cheap and end up burning your rig to the ground to save a few dollars, I can only offer up advice to not take cheap shortcuts and let folks decide what degree of risk is acceptable to them.

TL;DR I don't give two ***** if you decide to cheap out and kill yourself, I can only suggest that you don't.

[joeshmoe]

BTW,

3 tons nailed it in post #2. Good info for anyone looking into switching to LFP.

[3_tons]

jaycocreek wrote:
Everyone compares to Battleborn but fails to mention they use cylindrical cells,not prismatic..

Very true, costlier grade ‘A’ cylindrical cells of high uniformity (ain’t no free lunch), as does Aims…

3 tons

[joeshmoe]

And this business of needing to spend hundreds of dollars on specialized charging equipment is false. If you already have a multistage charger that's all you need. Occasionally, they need to go to 14.5V. Many chargers already can do that. If not, no biggie. Get an inexpensive charger that can do 14.5V for 4-6 hrs and you're done.

As far as cost for raw prismatic cells, I'm currently paying $596 for four LF280K prismatic cells. Another hundredish for the BMS. $700 for 280Ah, not 100Ah, which is the most common capacity, isn't too shabby.


Yeah, if you insist on Battleborn, you're gonna pay, but you don't have to.

[jaycocreek]

Everyone compares to Battleborn but fails to mention they use cylindrical cells,not prismatic..

[StirCrazy]

JoeChiOhki wrote:
As long as you're buying the top end Lithium RV deep cycles you'll be good, just make sure you have budgeted enough to get equivalent AH's to your existing setup and for the appropriate changes in your DC and AC->DC Charging hardware.

The more budget friendly Lithium batteries have record incidents of cell failures, as to bring them down in price, the quality and chemistry of the battery is cheapened.

You should budget around $2000 for 200AH of Quality Lithium battery capacity and around $350-400 for the charging hardware as a good starting point.

For me, I'll likely do the shift to Lithium as soon as Battle Born batteries get equivalent AH capacity to the J185h FLA batteries with a similar foot print and are price equivalent to their FLA predecessors in my system currently.

your about 4 years old with thoes prices, you can cut the battery prices in half or more now days. unless you insist on buying battle born (which theres nothing wrong with if thats what you want, but quality can be had for a lot less today) . my charging system cost me nothing, just a switch of a jumper on one and a different programing on the other.. I had to replace my power centre in my old camper anyways so I bought one that was LFP compatable, and I did the same when I decided to add solar. My 5th wheel will probably cost me about what you said for charging as I have to change my converter and my solar charger but it will only be about 12-1500 bucks for around 900AH of battery.

[covered_wagon]

Camper_Jeff_&_Kelli wrote:
First off, Solar panels do not discharge energy into the night.
Solarnight discharge
The back flow diodes and solar controller will prevent it. There is a minor voltage Vbf but it's very small. Also, it doesn't discharge back into the either or sky, it's just a resistance load to the batteries.
Most modern solar electronics have some sort of circuit protection. Even so, since you seem to have power in the day with sun, I would guess your solar charge controller is functio I g to some degree. Since your battery dies quickly, my guess.is.you damaged your batteries BMS. You'll have to do or have done, your own testing. Good luck.

Right! we are discussing a possible damaged controller with possible burnt diodes. And panels will discharge a battery at night without the diodes or a disconnect, I would rather have a controller that switches off as a disconnect rather than one way diodes as Each diode will reduce the charging capability.

[S_Davis]

joeshmoe wrote:
I see you're taking compression pretty serious. I started out compressing, but after looking into it a bunch, it seems compression is of only some minimal benefit to longevity.

With the lesser cycle cells, you'll get some marginal extra life, or with used B or C grade cells. The K cells will last 17 years even if you mildly abuse them. If you really take care of them and constantly keep them in the 60-80% range, they are estimated to last 32 years. And that's without compression.


Not saying compression isnt correct and I know the manufacturers have always recommended it, I just can't see going through the hassle with these new LFK cells.

The latest LF280K are 3500 cycles without compression and 6000 with, I would say that’s a little more than minimal. If you don’t restrain them I would suggest you keep a real close eye on your cell connections or go flexible buss bars because of the expansion and contraction of these cells. I have 640 lbs of compression on mine per the manufacturer and they still expand and contract with state of charge.

ETA: Also these are in a off road 4x4 and I can’t have them bouncing around, these mount on rubber isolators as well.

[JoeChiOhki]

As long as you're buying the top end Lithium RV deep cycles you'll be good, just make sure you have budgeted enough to get equivalent AH's to your existing setup and for the appropriate changes in your DC and AC->DC Charging hardware.

The more budget friendly Lithium batteries have record incidents of cell failures, as to bring them down in price, the quality and chemistry of the battery is cheapened.

You should budget around $2000 for 200AH of Quality Lithium battery capacity and around $350-400 for the charging hardware as a good starting point.

For me, I'll likely do the shift to Lithium as soon as Battle Born batteries get equivalent AH capacity to the J185h FLA batteries with a similar foot print and are price equivalent to their FLA predecessors in my system currently.