Looking for part time TV for under $20K

[GearHead36]

I'm looking to get a truck to use for commuting, light utility work (stops at Lowe's, moving furniture to & from storage unit, etc), and part time towing. My wife and I would like to get a TT or FW, but we don't really plan on getting a big one. We have one child still living at home, and are a couple of years from being empty nesters, so we won't be needing something capable of sleeping 6. I suspect we'll stay under 10K lbs. This is on the high side for a 1/2 ton, so I'm favoring a 3/4 or 1 ton. And for the near future, I'll still be working, so we won't be full-timers. Most of the driving will likely be on my 9 mile daily commute. I also want some decent range on a tank of fuel. We live in an area prone to tornadoes. A few years ago, we lost power for about a week. Luckily, we had a vehicle with almost a full tank, and we had a place to go. We had to drive about 100 miles before we could get fuel. I would like to be able to get at least 100 miles on half a tank while towing. 150 or 200 would be better.

We don't plan on towing over 10000' mountain passes either. Most of our trips will likely be relatively flat roads to the beach.

Historically, I've been a Ford guy. Years ago, I wanted an F250/F350 with a 7.3 turbo diesel. Seems that they were always too expensive or had 300K miles. In looking over the various year models from Ford, I find that the 7.3's have the best reputation (by FAR) for being the most reliable. The 6.0's are the worst. The 6.4's and 6.7's are a bit better, but still aren't as good as the 7.3's. And the 7.3's are priced accordingly. My research has also shown that V10's have about the same tow ratings, but I know very little about their reliability and cost to operate. I've read through some of the "Diesel vs gas" thread (no, I haven't read all 400+ pages), and from the discussions there, the diesels are still cheaper in the long run than the big gas engines if you do a lot of towing. However, reading about problems with some of the Ford engines, I'm not sure that this is true for all of them. Then I came across ***Link Removed***this article (http://gearheads.org/15-used-pickup-trucks-you-should-avoid-at-all-cost/). According to that one, there are a LOT of lemons in the truck world.

I'm more interested in total cost of ownership and cost to operate vs mpg's. There's more to the cost of operating a vehicle than fuel economy. This was driven home with me a few years ago when I was into motorcycles. The maintenance costs on a high performance motorcycle (mostly tires) can exceed the fuel costs.

I also read about Cummins "common rail injectors", and how they're $5000 to replace. And I realize that there's a lot I don't know about diesels.

I've also historically not been a fan of Chevy's, but in this case, I'm looking for a tool to do a job. So whatever gives me the best bang for the buck.

I briefly considered SUV's like the Expedition. Some of them can tow over 9K. But I need the utility of a truck.

I'm no longer sold on Ford being the best. I'm not convinced that I need a diesel, but I'm also not convinced that I don't need one either. Due to the likelihood of it being used mostly for commuting, I'm favoring a gasser. I do know that I do NOT want a dually. Those things are great if you do a LOT of towing, and nothing else. But if I had to drive one to work every day, I think I'd be hating it. So... instead of asking on a mfr specific forum, I thought I'd ask here. You folks should be more knowledgeable on what's needed to meet the demands I'll be facing.

What would you guys recommend?

[Grit_dog]

GearHead36 wrote:
A CL search of local 3/4 & one tons under $20K produced 6 good hits. 3 gas and 3 diesel. All of the diesels were 7.3's. I discarded any hits on 6.0 and 6.4 diesels. Then I went on Edmunds to see how they appraised. Edmunds's appraisals are supposedly based on actual sales. Not some "wishful thinking" appraisals. Two of the gassers appraised close to their asking prices. One appraised at several thousand over the asking price. The diesels all appraised at around half their asking prices. Why the discrepancy?

Diesels are holding value better than they should. Other discrepancies are due to vehicle conditions or owners/dealers wishful thinking.
You're buying used. If you don't know what to look for you could buy a cream puff they is a total pos or a bomber that is mechanically sound. Both conditions will affect what you should pay.
If you aren't saavy with mechanics then I'd bring someone who is when looking at old vehicles.
And get a gasser.

[falconbrother]

When I retired from the city they hired me back on a temp job that involved working with the transit authority on a construction project. They had a fleet of small busses that all used the early V-10 Fords. Every single one of them had the same major repair at around 100,000 miles. I can't remember the details but, it was a bad gasket in the intake I think. It would leak and affect the EGR. The repair required pulling the intake off and replacing a couple of things. I talked with the mechanic and as he understood it, it was an issue that happened on all early V10s. Other than that they had good service out of those chassis. When they were doing those repairs was in 2012-ish.

As far as the Triton 5.4 being a disaster, I'd say the evidence doesn't support that. There's a metric ton of those things on the road with several hundred thousand miles on them. The 1/2 ton American made (ish) vehicles are still on the road with lots of years and miles on them. The proof is in the proverbial pudding.

Cars and trucks are an aggravation, all of them. Some are less so than others but, they all will break down at some point. For towing get the most torque and chassis that you can afford. Figure in some maintenance cost. You'll be good to go. Forget about brands. That's a never ending argument that I have been hearing for 50+ years with no resolution. Look at the specifics of the truck/SUV you plan to put your cash on.

[jerem0621]

GearHead36 wrote:

jerem0621 wrote:
Yes, the spark plug blow out issue on the early 2v V10, and 5.4 were blown out of proportion. Did it happen? Yes. More than a few? Yes... but was mitigated by properly torquing the spark plugs into head and not over tightening them. But when the blow outs happened there is a relatively simple repair kit for professional mechanics. I've personally owned four modular motors (and hundreds of thousands of miles) and have not had a single blow out or internal issue with any of my motors.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

OK. What's an "early 2v V10, and 5.4"? BTW, I thought that the spark plug problem was on the 3V (Triton) versions.

I am pretty sure it's 97-1999 pre PI(Performance improved) heads on the early tritons. These aluminum heads only had about 2 or three threads that actually engaged the spark plug. These did have a problem with blowing out of the head (literally) but was blown out of proportion. The 2000 and later 2V motors were IMHO some of the most reliable motors.

In about 04 in the half tons and 05 in the HD trucks they went to a 3v head configuration on the modular motors. These motors originally had problematic 2 piece spark plugs. These were a PITA and would often break in the head! There is actually an extraction tool for these broken plugs. However, replacement plugs and later New trucks had a one piece spark plug that solved this issue.

The biggest issue I have with the 3V motors is limited to the half tons (F150, Navigator, Expedition, and Lincoln mark LT) of the era... these were the infamous cam phasers that were imho a terrible design. My FIL has a 2007 Navigator with the 5.4 and his Cam Phasors failed... when we replaced them we used a lock out kit meaning no more terrible cam phaser. I digress... if you have ever heard a 04-09 F150 drive by and it was ticking it probably had a cam phaser issue.

These are all overall good motors, not the fastest or most efficient, but really reliable and relatively easy to work on. Imho and experience.

Thanks,

Jeremiah

[GearHead36]

jerem0621 wrote:
Yes, the spark plug blow out issue on the early 2v V10, and 5.4 were blown out of proportion. Did it happen? Yes. More than a few? Yes... but was mitigated by properly torquing the spark plugs into head and not over tightening them. But when the blow outs happened there is a relatively simple repair kit for professional mechanics. I've personally owned four modular motors (and hundreds of thousands of miles) and have not had a single blow out or internal issue with any of my motors.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

OK. What's an "early 2v V10, and 5.4"? BTW, I thought that the spark plug problem was on the 3V (Triton) versions.

[jerem0621]

GearHead36 wrote:

jerem0621 wrote:
Just keep in mind that the V10 and the 5.4 are very similar in design. The V10 is a 5.4 with 2 more cylinders added.

Well, THAT's disappointing. From what I've read, it's the design of the spark plug mount that gives the most trouble. If that's the same on the V10, I'll be disappointed.

jerem0621 wrote:
The 5.4's that had more issues were the ones with cam phasers found in the half ton chassis. The HD 5.4's were good motors. The V10 and the 5.4 did have some spark plug issues but these are very minor and very rare in comparison to say...one or two Diesel injectors going bad. These motors can also have Exhaust manifold studs break.

OK. So have the spark plug issues been blown out of proportion?

jerem0621 wrote:
If you search hard enough you can find issues with all these trucks.

Yeah, I'm finding that, too. Even with Toyota and Nissan.

jerem0621 wrote:
Also, if you want a 7.3 PSD then I wouldn't settle for anything less. They are old but they are relatively easy to work on. There are tons and tons out there with 100-125k miles which is barely broken in for these trucks. You just have to be patient and you will need to be prepared to travel.

I've never owned a diesel. My dad was a mechanic. I grew up in a garage that worked on gas engines. I'm MUCH more comfortable with gas vs diesel. I could do most of my own wrenching on a gas engine. With a diesel, I'd need to find a good mechanic. I would prefer to find what I need in a gas engine.

jerem0621 wrote:
When I bought my 1999 V10 CC LB Dually I traveled over four hours to get it. 139k miles and I spent $5,500.

Just scour Auto Trader, Craigslist, and Car Guru's and be ready to go travel to get your truck.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

Thanks. Sounds like good ideas.

Yes, the spark plug blow out issue on the early 2v V10, and 5.4 were blown out of proportion. Did it happen? Yes. More than a few? Yes... but was mitigated by properly torquing the spark plugs into head and not over tightening them. But when the blow outs happened there is a relatively simple repair kit for professional mechanics. I've personally owned four modular motors (and hundreds of thousands of miles) and have not had a single blow out or internal issue with any of my motors.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

[GearHead36]

A CL search of local 3/4 & one tons under $20K produced 6 good hits. 3 gas and 3 diesel. All of the diesels were 7.3's. I discarded any hits on 6.0 and 6.4 diesels. Then I went on Edmunds to see how they appraised. Edmunds's appraisals are supposedly based on actual sales. Not some "wishful thinking" appraisals. Two of the gassers appraised close to their asking prices. One appraised at several thousand over the asking price. The diesels all appraised at around half their asking prices. Why the discrepancy?

[GearHead36]

Grit dog wrote:
I'll also add, for your use, nothing wrong with a well equipped half ton (big engine, lower gears, tow package). You're spending most of the time using it as a DD anyway. It'll handle a few trips pulling a decent size camper just fine. Have some good tires and any cheap rear suspension aide and let er pull.

Yeah, I've thought of this, but finding a half ton with all the options for optimum towing is not easy. It's becoming a research project. And then I read that the old 5.4 is bulletproof, but it doesn't tow a lot. And the Triton 5.4 is "an engineering disaster", which may be an overstatement. So... I thought that if I went with a gasser, I might be better off with a 3/4 or one ton with a larger gas engine.

I kept on getting confused, which is why I came here for answers.

[GearHead36]

jerem0621 wrote:
Just keep in mind that the V10 and the 5.4 are very similar in design. The V10 is a 5.4 with 2 more cylinders added.

Well, THAT's disappointing. From what I've read, it's the design of the spark plug mount that gives the most trouble. If that's the same on the V10, I'll be disappointed.

jerem0621 wrote:
The 5.4's that had more issues were the ones with cam phasers found in the half ton chassis. The HD 5.4's were good motors. The V10 and the 5.4 did have some spark plug issues but these are very minor and very rare in comparison to say...one or two Diesel injectors going bad. These motors can also have Exhaust manifold studs break.

OK. So have the spark plug issues been blown out of proportion?

jerem0621 wrote:
If you search hard enough you can find issues with all these trucks.

Yeah, I'm finding that, too. Even with Toyota and Nissan.

jerem0621 wrote:
Also, if you want a 7.3 PSD then I wouldn't settle for anything less. They are old but they are relatively easy to work on. There are tons and tons out there with 100-125k miles which is barely broken in for these trucks. You just have to be patient and you will need to be prepared to travel.

I've never owned a diesel. My dad was a mechanic. I grew up in a garage that worked on gas engines. I'm MUCH more comfortable with gas vs diesel. I could do most of my own wrenching on a gas engine. With a diesel, I'd need to find a good mechanic. I would prefer to find what I need in a gas engine.

jerem0621 wrote:
When I bought my 1999 V10 CC LB Dually I traveled over four hours to get it. 139k miles and I spent $5,500.

Just scour Auto Trader, Craigslist, and Car Guru's and be ready to go travel to get your truck.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

Thanks. Sounds like good ideas.

[rhagfo]

Well six years ago when we were looking for a good tow vehicle to replace our tired 1989 F250 with 460, we were looking diesel.
We looked at many with 130K to 175K on them, most seemed a a bit tattered. Then we can across a 2001, 5 speed manual, one owner trade an a Ram dealer about 30 miles away. This was a very nice unit well taken care of drove well and was well appointed, it only had 234,000 miles. Well six years later and now at 298,000 miles still going strong. In the last six years, just oil and antifreeze changes to the engine, mostly normal maintenance to the sixteen year old body and drive train.

[crcr]

Re diesels, I was in about the same situation as you three years ago. I needed a truck for towing our RV plus occasional errands to HD, etc etc. I shopped hard for 2-3 months, then found a 2004 Dodge Ram Quad Cab 4x4 Cummins, 1 owner new Ram trade in, no rust or corrosion (Desert Southwest vehicle) with 136K, bought it for $17,500. Translating to today, the equivalent in years would be buying a 2007 diesel similarly equipped truck. So the deals are out there, you just have to be a patient and diligent shopper.

I only drive the truck about 4,000-5,000 miles per year. In the 3 years I've owned it, I have done only a couple of very minor repairs. All other work on the truck has been maintenance plus a few self-performed mods / upgrades. If you can find a clean one like I did, the 2003 to 2007 (3rd Generation) 5.9L Dodge Ram Cummins is a great choice. They are sought after because of the ever reliable Cummins and none to limited emissions equipment on them depending on the year in that range. Actually, from what I see in the market, I believe that my truck may not have depreciated hardly at all.

I would suggest a diesel if you can find a clean older one -- much better for towing and excellent resale as opposed to a gasser. I wouldn't be afraid of the 5.9 Ram in the 200K+ mile range, depending on condition and maintenance level. There are many on a Cummins forum I frequent who own the 3rd Gen Ram diesel with 300,000+ miles on them and counting with good reliability.

Good luck!

[campingken]

Keep looking, be willing to travel, and send PM's to members here when you read that they just bought a new truck and ask if they are willing to sell you their old one.

Last year I was able to buy a 2001.5 Dodge 2500 5.9 diesel 4x4 regular cab with 122,000 miles from a member here for $11,000. He had built it up to tow and it was (and still is) in near mint condition. The only down side is that my wife decided that it was going to be her truck to tow her horse trailer.

It may take a while but if you keep at it you will be able to find what you want for what you want to spend.

[Grit_dog]

APT wrote:
2011+ Gas 3/4 or 1-ton. Try to find the 4.xx gears.

^ This.
Find the lowest mile cleanest gasser of any of the big 3 you can. Shoot for the 6 speed trans.
I'll also add, for your use, nothing wrong with a well equipped half ton (big engine, lower gears, tow package). You're spending most of the time using it as a DD anyway. It'll handle a few trips pulling a decent size camper just fine. Have some good tires and any cheap rear suspension aide and let er pull.

[colliehauler]

Dave H M wrote:
What year was the V10 discontinued in the F350 and below?

Also there was a point in time when the spark plug blowing was fixed on the V10.

I believe it was 2009 when it was discontinued for light trucks.

[Dave_H_M]

What year was the V10 discontinued in the F350 and below?

Also there was a point in time when the spark plug blowing was fixed on the V10.