Newbie: Towing TT w/ 2008 Toyota Sequoia

[stevevalwa]

The camping bug bit my wife over the summer so we decided to attend the RV Expo in Boston over the past weekend. She fell in love with the 2018 Rockwood 2706WS and after two days of looking at smaller options, we decided the Rockwood fits our family best as the 3 kids are growing fast. I remember looking in my Sequoia's owners manual before the show for the towing capacity and all I remembered was 9000 lbs. Although seeing the GVWR of 8800 lbs for the TT scared me, I convinced myself the Sequoia can handle it as I wouldn't tow with potable water. I obviously should have done more due diligence... So after spending the morning researching towing with the Sequoia, and how to calculate the weights using the TV & TT ratings, the main takeaway from the research is that Toyota has downgraded the max towing capacity of this TV to ~7600lbs applying a new standard (J2807). This has been well documented in other posts. So I've come up with the following calculations for my set-up:



So, sanity check time:

1.) I made an assumption on my hitch weight based on Rockwood's publicized 804 lbs assuming they got that number using the TT's GVWR. Is that reasonable or should I have just used the 804# number?
2.) I did purchase a WD hitch but I don't know the specifics (yet). Do these really weight a few hundred lbs? If so, I definitely need to include that in the calcs.
3.) For the experienced towers/campers that actually weigh their rigs, is 950 lbs. of dry cargo even a reasonable number for a TT this big? I would assume we have to pack incredibly light... and that may be a challenge knowing my wife.
4.) What other thoughts do you have besides the obvious I need to upgrade my tow vehicle? Will do so in time.

[BenK]

Kinda sorta agree...only on OEM level friction materials and OEM tune of the brakes...

Also lost is that the larger dia wheels weigh more than smaller dia wheels. Ditto tires. Therefore centrifugal (fly wheel) loading hits smaller dia brakes

Yes, larger dia brake disc has potentially higher braking power

Key is both ability to skid the brakes...or with ABS...initiate ABS during the braking session...*and*...the ability to modulate the brakes within the ABS limits (not to allow the ABS to kick in)

NONE of my vehicles have OEM level friction material. Nor do they have OEM tune. They are all performance level and my super tune. Plus other modifications that increases both braking power and ability to modulate the braking sesion

Other components are: the tires, wheels, shocks, and suspension that all play together during any braking session

Mine begets ABS almost any time and also allows modulation to NOT get into an ABS session. To that point...out braked a 5 series BMW and he rear ended my Suburban


Below is an image found years ago and is of what am talking about. First FMVSS has MAXIMUM stopping distances for cars, buses, semi's, etc

Bendix marketing showing how just changing friction material can reduce stopping distance and is of what am talking about


Click For Full-Size Image.

[bluepost]

drsteve wrote:

bluepost wrote:


Again, the 3/4 ton trucks are the ones that are under braked, taking 200 ft to stop from 60mph. The Sequoia takes less than 130ft. But yes, an exhaust brake is an excellent device.

Some of that lackluster performance is because a pickup truck has little weight in the rear.

So do 1/2 tons and they stop in about 130 ft.

3/4 ton brakes are about 13.9-14.2 diameter and have GCWR of 19k-28k lbs.

F150 has 13.8 diameter front brakes and has GCWR of 14-17k.

The Sequoia has 13.9 diameter brakes and a GCWR of less than 14k lbs.

3/4 tons have the same or .2 inches of additional brake diameter, albeit more on the rears for additional 5k-14k lbs of combined weight rating.

Again, stopping 15k-28k lbs with the about the same sized brakes as a Sequoia doing it with 13,500.

3/4 ton and full ton trucks are definitively better tow vehicles, but brakes aren't the reason.

Diesel engine braking can't be beat.......but I would be curious how the engine braking is with a 6 cylinder F150 ecoboost towing 10k lbs

[ordually]

I have pulled a Nash 22H with a 5.7L Sequoia for 6 years, or about 50 camping trips of 200 miles each, all of which included the Colorado I-70 grades from Denver to Summit County and back (a portion of which is the TFL 'Ike Gauntlet').

The loaded scaled combined weight of my combo is 12,480lb, with 5180 on the trailer and 7300 on TV.

I can traverse I-70 from Denver to Eisenhower Tunnel and descend to points west, and do the reverse on my return trip, at the speed limit on both the uphills and the downhills, the latter without touching the brakes (traffic allowing). I'm impressed with the engine-braking ability of the Sequoia.

OP, if you have Sequoia towing questions, feel free to ask. I'm quite pleased with the rig and my Equalizer hitch.

Ord

[DiskDoctr]

Thing to watch out for when using engine braking (or downshifting) in a lighter weight TV with heavy trailer is ALL the weight of the trailer is pushing hard on the TV.

The trailer brakes are not helping if you are not braking or using the override switch 😉

[drsteve]

bluepost wrote:


Again, the 3/4 ton trucks are the ones that are under braked, taking 200 ft to stop from 60mph. The Sequoia takes less than 130ft. But yes, an exhaust brake is an excellent device.

Some of that lackluster performance is because a pickup truck has little weight in the rear.

[bluepost]

I tow 6500 lbs with a Sequoia all over the Sierras. Death Valley, Yosemite, Sequoia, Donner Pass. Right behind my house is Mt Rose hwy to Lake Tahoe...5000 ft to 9200 ft to 6200 ft all in 18 miles.

I never have to ride my brakes, and rarely do I need to even drop to 2nd. At 55 mph there is enough wind drag that I only downshift for cautions sake. And again, the Sequoia brakes are dual caliper with a diameter larger than the last generation F250, yet the Sequoia weighs 1000lbs less.

Again, the 3/4 ton trucks are the ones that are under braked, taking 200 ft to stop from 60mph. The Sequoia takes less than 130ft. But yes, an exhaust brake is an excellent device.

[bluepost]

travelnman wrote:
If I were you the biggest surprise may come when your approaching a steep downgrade. Those with the runaway ramps with DMV warnings all over the place for tuckers to check their exhaust brakes and other equipment. A small tow vehicle will be burning brakes on the way down with all that weight behind it plus your load inside the vehicle. It may be best to stay with the corn fields until you get something more heavy duty to tow with, watch elevations on maps, and know the road ahead. I have seen semi's burning brakes smoking up the highway your Toyota will probably do the same as the brakes get hot they become less affective all you can do is hope the bottom is coming up soon or consider those runaway ramps if you get into trouble. They will still ask "are we there yet". I saw a guy pulling your load with a Ford Explorer the sales people said would work, it looked like a accident about to happen going down the road. He made it from Chicago to Colorado like that, I told him not to make the return trip with all those people on board and then he would still be a road hazard. I saw him leaving the park with his TV antenna up.

[BurbMan]

travelnman wrote:
If I were you the biggest surprise may come when your approaching a steep downgrade. Those with the runaway ramps with DMV warnings all over the place for tuckers to check their exhaust brakes and other equipment. A small tow vehicle will be burning brakes on the way down with all that weight behind it plus your load inside the vehicle. It may be best to stay with the corn fields until you get something more heavy duty to tow with, watch elevations on maps, and know the road ahead. I have seen semi's burning brakes smoking up the highway your Toyota will probably do the same as the brakes get hot they become less affective all you can do is hope the bottom is coming up soon or consider those runaway ramps if you get into trouble. They will still ask "are we there yet". I saw a guy pulling your load with a Ford Explorer the sales people said would work, it looked like a accident about to happen going down the road. He made it from Chicago to Colorado like that, I told him not to make the return trip with all those people on board and then he would still be a road hazard. I saw him leaving the park with his TV antenna up.

Haven't you ever heard of downshifting for engine braking? In L1 my transmission limits speed to 35 mph with the engine at 4k rpm. Same with an exhaust brake...semis don't burn brakes anymore, they use engine braking with the exhaust brake...the runaway ramps are there for mechanical failures.

[travelnman]

If I were you the biggest surprise may come when your approaching a steep downgrade. Those with the runaway ramps with DMV warnings all over the place for tuckers to check their exhaust brakes and other equipment. A small tow vehicle will be burning brakes on the way down with all that weight behind it plus your load inside the vehicle. It may be best to stay with the corn fields until you get something more heavy duty to tow with, watch elevations on maps, and know the road ahead. I have seen semi's burning brakes smoking up the highway your Toyota will probably do the same as the brakes get hot they become less affective all you can do is hope the bottom is coming up soon or consider those runaway ramps if you get into trouble. They will still ask "are we there yet". I saw a guy pulling your load with a Ford Explorer the sales people said would work, it looked like a accident about to happen going down the road. He made it from Chicago to Colorado like that, I told him not to make the return trip with all those people on board and then he would still be a road hazard. I saw him leaving the park with his TV antenna up.

[jim1521]

bluepost wrote:
Lots of drama on this forum.

Yes, you bought too much trailer.

Yes, you can safely tow that trailer with your Sequoia, as you said, with only you.

If you load it with 1000 lbs of stuff (that is quite a bit of stuff, yes people load more, lots of people load less) you will be at 8000lbs. That is 960lbs of TW at 12%. The WD hitch will take care of its own weight. That leaves 300 lbs for you and a huge 44 oz big gulp.

It won't be convenient, or easy, but you can do it.

An 8000lb trailer pushing a 6000 Sequoia is no worse than a 12k lb trailer pushing a 7000lb 3/4 ton. The Sequoia brakes are bigger than the last generation F250.....not that it matters BRAKING IS NOT ON THE TOW VEHICLE.

A 3/4 ton won't stop a 8000lb trailer any faster than a Sequoia. Some F250s have empty 60-0 braking distance over 200ft!!! Ram 2500 is 195ft, Chevy also over 200 ft.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-ram-2500-3500-in-depth-model-review-2017-ram-2500-3500-performance-and-driving-impressions-review-car-and-driver-page-4A

Sequoia is 127ft. "In Edmunds brake testing, the Toyota Sequoia required 127 feet to come to a stop from 60 mph, which is a short distance for SUVs in this class."

It will always be about how well the trailer brakes work, it's tires, it's loading and the brake controller. Any trailer has it's own stopping distance with it's current weight and brakes. That distance is combined with the tow vehicles stopping distance. "Well if the brakes fail"....ya ya, I'd rather be in a Sequoia with a 8000 lb trailer behind me than a 1 ton SRW with 15k behind me during a trailer brake failure.

15% tongue weight is not "better". The more tongue weight the more down force on the hitch during a hard stop, which is less weight on the front braking axle. The least tongue weight that naturally (without sway control) doesn't result in sway is best.

Panic stop at 68mph while towing? Pretty sure that wouldn't of been a panic stop at 60mph. I love the weight police that talk about towing at 70 mph. Stopping distance at 60mph is 239 ft. At 68 mph it is 298 ft. A 59 ft difference....the difference between crunching metal and stopping 59 FT short of it.

Enjoy your new rig, don't get tempted to load it up and go, it will tow fine with just you. Have fun with your family and take it slow.

And this goes for everyone including myself....just because you have done something for a long time, doesn't mean you are any good at it. I don't see many taxi drivers racing Nascar.

This is one of the best posts I've ever read. Great job, Bluepost.

[bluepost]

Lots of drama on this forum.

Yes, you bought too much trailer.

Yes, you can safely tow that trailer with your Sequoia, as you said, with only you.

If you load it with 1000 lbs of stuff (that is quite a bit of stuff, yes people load more, lots of people load less) you will be at 8000lbs. That is 960lbs of TW at 12%. The WD hitch will take care of its own weight. That leaves 300 lbs for you and a huge 44 oz big gulp.

It won't be convenient, or easy, but you can do it.

An 8000lb trailer pushing a 6000 Sequoia is no worse than a 12k lb trailer pushing a 7000lb 3/4 ton. The Sequoia brakes are bigger than the last generation F250.....not that it matters BRAKING IS NOT ON THE TOW VEHICLE.

A 3/4 ton won't stop a 8000lb trailer any faster than a Sequoia. Some F250s have empty 60-0 braking distance over 200ft!!! Ram 2500 is 195ft, Chevy also over 200 ft.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-ram-2500-3500-in-depth-model-review-2017-ram-2500-3500-performance-and-driving-impressions-review-car-and-driver-page-4A

Sequoia is 127ft. "In Edmunds brake testing, the Toyota Sequoia required 127 feet to come to a stop from 60 mph, which is a short distance for SUVs in this class."

It will always be about how well the trailer brakes work, it's tires, it's loading and the brake controller. Any trailer has it's own stopping distance with it's current weight and brakes. That distance is combined with the tow vehicles stopping distance. "Well if the brakes fail"....ya ya, I'd rather be in a Sequoia with a 8000 lb trailer behind me than a 1 ton SRW with 15k behind me during a trailer brake failure.

15% tongue weight is not "better". The more tongue weight the more down force on the hitch during a hard stop, which is less weight on the front braking axle. The least tongue weight that naturally (without sway control) doesn't result in sway is best.

Panic stop at 68mph while towing? Pretty sure that wouldn't of been a panic stop at 60mph. I love the weight police that talk about towing at 70 mph. Stopping distance at 60mph is 239 ft. At 68 mph it is 298 ft. A 59 ft difference....the difference between crunching metal and stopping 59 FT short of it.

You won't be able to tow in 25 mph crosswinds....or snow storms, or through a tornado, or T Storm. So be it. Just don't corner yourself in with a time crunch. Strong winds don't normally last over 24 hours.

If you get it, enjoy your new rig, don't get tempted to load it up and go, it will tow fine with just you. Have fun with your family and take it slow. Keep an eye on a better tow vehicle or smaller trailer when you are ready.

And this goes for everyone including myself....just because you have done something for a long time, doesn't mean you are any good at it. I don't see many taxi drivers racing Nascar.

[mitw44]

First, I applaud the OP for doing the research and for being willing to learn all that goes into understanding weight and how it affects towing. This is a good place to learn it, since most RV an vehicle salesmen really don't seem to understand it. I have always said that the best truck salesmen work for RV dealers! They send you down the road with a new RV and an overloaded truck, and after one or two white-knuckle trips, the owner goes and buys a bigger truck to handle the trailer they just bought. I know from personal experience.

[The_Owl]

I have a 2008 Sequoia that I used to pull a Nash 25C. I can say that it was not a pleasant experience and is a lighter and shorter trailer than what the OP has. We’re I not trading in the trailer for a 5th wheel this weekend, I would be purchasing a more capable tow vehicle this spring anyway.

[BurbMan]

SoundGuy wrote:

stevevalwa wrote:
Never mind the fact that even if I could magically keep it between 11.4 and 12.4, all those scenarios exceed my goal of keeping trailer weight 7600# or less. It ranges from 7800-8500.

Trying to the find ways to lower the trailer's gross tongue weight just to better accommodate your Sequoia's limited towing capability is exactly what you don't want to do - too low and you could easily be all over the road, particularly with such a long trailer and such a short wheelbase vehicle. :E Rather, you should be aiming for 13% - 14% of the trailer's average gross weight, loaded & ready to camp, and if it's too much for your Sequoia, then it's too much. 😉 Bottom line - doesn't matter what you do to try to rationalize it this trailer you want to tow is 3/4 ton truck territory - anything less just won't cut it.

A Henlsey or ProPride hitch that uses the 4-bar linkage is indifferent to tongue weight...you can tow a TT with 1% tongue weight and it will tow as straight as an arrow.

In the absence of this type of sway control you absolutely need 13% +/- on the hitch to prevent unwanted sway.

I only bring this up because some the tongue weight on some trailers goes north of 15% with an extra battery and full propane. Loading heavy items in a rear storage area can bring it down to the 12-13% range.

Just to be clear:

1. I don't disagree that this is too much trailer for the Sequoia no matter how you slice it.

2. It's a good idea to get it weighed and see what the actual TW winds up at so OP has the REAL numbers when shopping for a new truck.

3. A Hensley or ProPride 4-bar hitch is a good idea on a trailer that long even if you pull it with a 3/4 truck.