Ram Cummins Vs GM Duramax Ike Gauntlet

[ib516]

VIDEO

My summary:
- they both can tow 12.5k lbs anywhere, even in the toughest conditions, with ease.
- the Duramax exhaust brake works too good?
- the GM's hitch is heavily reinforced and you may need to rig up something for the safety chains to easily attach if you bumper tow.
- buy the one you like from a dealer you trust will look after you if there are ever any problems.

[4x4ord]

travelnutz wrote:
4x4ord,

I se you are finally understanding WHAT and only WHAT force is turning the drive wheels! Vehicle motion and velocity/up a grade motion etc is controlled solely by the amount of twisting force (torque is what it's called) applied to the drive axle which then turns the wheel against the surface the tire is on and thus moves the vehicle as in distance made good in and with moving the vehicle.

No brakes being applied and/or insufficient torque applied on a grade surface results in gravity overcoming the rolling resistance either in a forward or backward direction. Horsepower need not apply as it is merely a theoretical calculation which does absolutely nothing for force turning any vehicle axle or drive wheels.

Yes, a horse can pull or push a vehicle with having a type of connecting device etc but that does not forcefully twist the vehicle's axle in the right or left rotation direction as they will be free wheeling when the vehicle is being either pushed or pulled by an exterior force being applied.

Why is this so hard to understand??? factual knowns and backed by all data 101...

Torque is a measurement of force, so yes the force acting on the rear axle is torque. However force has no time component to its units of measure. Therefore it says nothing about how fast a truck can climb a hill.....energy transferred per time or speed up the hill is power....typically horsepower.

[travelnutz]

4x4ord,

I se you are finally understanding WHAT and only WHAT force is turning the drive wheels! Vehicle motion and velocity/up a grade motion etc is controlled solely by the amount of twisting force (torque is what it's called) applied to the drive axle which then turns the wheel against the surface the tire is on and thus moves the vehicle as in distance made good in and with moving the vehicle.

No brakes being applied and/or insufficient torque applied on a grade surface results in gravity overcoming the rolling resistance either in a forward or backward direction. Horsepower need not apply as it is merely a theoretical calculation which does absolutely nothing for force turning any vehicle axle or drive wheels.

Yes, a horse can pull or push a vehicle with having a type of connecting device etc but that does not forcefully twist the vehicle's axle in the right or left rotation direction as they will be free wheeling when the vehicle is being either pushed or pulled by an exterior force being applied.

Why is this so hard to understand??? factual knowns and backed by all data 101...

[Learjet]

http://www.trucktrend.com/news/1712-2018-ford-super-duty-450-horsepower-and-935-lb-ft-of-torque-plus...

[4x4ord]

nevadanick wrote:
What about the saying that Torque is what moves you and horsepower is what you feel. Any truth to it ?

It is interesting to point out that when you mash the throttle to the floor and your car begins to accelerate you feel that acceleration in the seat of your pants. The transmission will shift and the engine will again continue to rev through its operating range. What you feel in the seat of your pants is acceleration. The acceleration and feeling is the greatest in each gear at the rpm that the engine produces the most torque. So in that light someone could argue that torque is what you feel. In actual fact the more torque you can put to the rear wheels the faster the car will accelerate. But to maintain that high level of torque, as the axle rpm increases, takes more and more horsepower.

[ShinerBock]

This is why is said it gets convoluted. Some people are talking about torque and horsepower of the engine, which the second it cranks over is producing horsepower, and others talk in terms of the vehicle and the movement of the tires.

[4x4ord]

ShinerBock wrote:

transamz9 wrote:

Shinerbock wrote:
Torque without rotational movement is useless just like Coke without Crown is useless.

Torque without rotation is not useless. What holds a truck still parked on a hill? How much hp does it take to hold that truck?

Brakes and friction. However I was jokingly speaking in terms of moving 12.5k lbs up a hill at 60 mph. If there is no movement and the engine does not have enought torqur to move rotate the crange then it can't reach 60 mph or any speed. Once it does have enough torque to move the crank then it is making horsepowe.

Exactly.....so Travelnutz, torque without rpm accomplishes no work. Torque in conjunction with rpm is power.

[nevadanick]

What about the saying that Torque is what moves you and horsepower is what you feel. Any truth to it ?

[ShinerBock]

transamz9 wrote:

Shinerbock wrote:
Torque without rotational movement is useless just like Coke without Crown is useless.

Torque without rotation is not useless. What holds a truck still parked on a hill? How much hp does it take to hold that truck?

Brakes and friction. However I was jokingly speaking in terms of moving 12.5k lbs up a hill at 60 mph. If there is no movement and the engine does not have enough torque to rotate the crank then it can't reach 60 mph or any speed. Once it does have enough torque to move the crank then it is making horsepower.

[transamz9]

Shinerbock wrote:
Torque without rotational movement is useless just like Coke without Crown is useless.

Torque without rotation is not useless. What holds a truck still parked on a hill? How much hp does it take to hold that truck?

[travelnutz]

Isn't it amazing how every example you boys cite or refer to all need that word "torque" delivered to the drive (propelling wheels) even to move the vehicle as little as .000001 of a MPH or 60 MPH? DUH! Torque is what makes any drive wheel move any vehicle to any velocity and what creates the drive wheel RPM at all. Doesn't anyone here know or understand what the formula for expressing theoretical horsepower is and what 2 measured factors must be present or theoretical calculated "horsepower" would always be ZERO! Horsepower is a calculated theoretical derivative of having both adequate measured/measurable torque to turn the drive wheels or there would be zero wheel RPM at all and of course ZERO theoretical HP possible.

Torque is the twisting force and is what and only what turns the drive wheels hard enough to make any movement of the vehicle possible by the engine it has geared or not whether it be diesel or gasoline powered. Gearing multiplies or reduces available torque from the engine delivered to them but gearing only can work with the torque that is delivered by the engine crankshaft applied to it and thus modify it. Nothing else but "torque" as not having adequate delivered torque to the drive wheels or thru the gearing will move the vehicle or up an incline even .001 of an inch!

Again, a vehicle would NOT even move at all or up an incline or to the 60 MPH velocity without having the one item factor value adequate enough to move the vehicle or thus NO drive wheel RPM and NO vehicle movement and now tell me about all the theoretical horsepower that could be calculated? HP in a vehicle moves NOTHING, delivered torque to the drive wheels and only that torque is what does and determines what the velocity and distance made good will be gained or can be! Horsepower is NOT a measureable force factor in wheeled vehicles. Just a theoretical calculation using 2 measured actualities that have occurred. Might remember that horses come in infinite sizes and strength capabilities so which dartboard hit was or should be used for true constantly repeatable term of "horsepower"?

My horse is bigger and stronger than yours so I will always win in a horsepower pulling competition!!!

[4x4ord]

transamz9 wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

travelnutz wrote:
As a nearly 40 year automotive engineer and automotive engineering operation owner, I sure as hell do know what I'm talking about! Taught many classes and you'd be wise to attend such! Torque and only torque is what and the force that turns the wheels to make the vehicle move at all or to any desired velocity and keeps it at that velocity also. Especially apparent on an uphill grade where torque does it all, all the time. Simple, as if you do NOT have adequate torque to maintain a desired velocity, the vehicle will drop in velocity.

Theoretical horsepower turns NO vehicle wheels nor does it apply one ounce of force to turn any wheel as horsepower is only theoretical calculation value. Torque is the only axle/wheel twisting force ever present! NO work is accomplished or done at all if there isn't adequate torque to make the wheels turn to any velocity. Try to deny this known well long time established FACT!!!

You've got your units confused. Asking how much torque is required to move a 20,000 lb truck up a 7% grade at 60 mph is like asking how may feet of gasoline it takes to fill your fuel tank.

Hp is a number used to tell you how much torque you need to produce at a rpm to achieve that speed. I think you guys are saying the same thing just have a different way of looking at the equation. How fast can you accelerate to 60mph up a 7% grade with 12.5k with 300hp? To answer the question you have to know how much torque you can apply through the RPM range. HP will just tell you the max speed it will achieve. If you don't have the ability to apply the torque needed to get the load to that max speed then max hp is useless.

Let's not get talking about acceleration yet. You are correct about a vehicle needing to put a certain amount of torque to the rear axle to move up a hill. So for instance a 20,000 lb truck/trailer combination parked on a 7% grade will have a certain torque on its rear axle. The lbs of force trying to roll the truck down the grade can be calculated by taking the sine of the arc tan of 7% and multiplying it by 20,000 lbs. It turns out to be about 1397 lbs. That 1397 lbs is pulling on the outside of the tire so if the truck has 34" diameter tires the torque arm would be 17" or 1.4167 feet. The torque on the axle is 1397 x 1.4167 or 1979 lbft. So the truck needs to be able to put about 2000 lb ft of torque to the rear axle in order to start climbing the hill.

Additional torque is required to overcome wind resistance if the truck is moving faster. So for instance to overcome wind and rolling resistance at a speed of 60 mph a truck/trailer will be consuming about 6 gallons of fuel per hour. (10 mpg) We know that 6 gallons of diesel contains about 327 hp hours of energy. If we assume a pick up truck engine is running at about 30% efficiency while running part throttle pulling a trailer down a level road at 60 mph we can figure that it takes somewhere in the neighborhood of 30% of 327 or 98 HP to overcome rolling and wind resistance of a typical 5th wheel traveling 60 mph.

So 98 hp are needed at the rear axle to travel 60 mph on level ground. If the tires are 34" in diameter then they will be turning 593 rpm at 60 mph. So 98 hp at 593 rpm means there will be 98 x 5252/593 or 867 lbft of torque on the axle to overcome wind and rolling resistance at 60 mph.

So the torque on the rear axle of the trucks going up the Ike would be in the neighborhood of 2847 lbft if they are to maintain 60 mph on the 7% grade.

In order to put 2847 lb ft of torque to the rear axle the Duramax would need to be putting out about 878 lb ft of torque at the crankshaft if the transmission is in 4th gear and assuming a 15% power loss while running with the torque converter locked up. The engine would be running at 2212 rpm and producing 378 crankshaft horsepower.


Edit: I should have used something a little higher than 30% for the the engine's efficiency to guestimate the power required to travel 60 mph on level ground. Maybe 38% would have been a better guess. So instead of 98 hp maybe 124 would have been a closer guess. If I add 26 rear wheel hp to the power the Duramax would have to come up with it would be 30 crankshaft HP. So the engine would have to be capable of 408 HP at 2212 rpm......or it would have to drop down to 3rd gear and rev to 3110 rpm (I don't lnow if the Duramax revs that high or not?) Maybe it would slow to 55 and run at 2850 in 3rd?

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

ShinerBock wrote:
Torque and rpm combine to make horsepower just like Crown and Coke combine to make me happy.

How much horsepower is being made depends on how much torque is being applied at a certain rpm just like how happy I get depends on how much Crown is being applied to the Coke.

Torque without rotational movement is useless just like Coke without Crown is useless.

You see, you can't have one without the other.

Now go practice explaining it to yourself using Crown and Coke as an example and it will all start making sense after about the third or fourth try. At least it did for me. :B

Good post!

The thing I like about HP is you can't "manufacture" it with gears. You want to make more torque to the tires? Just drop a gear. If you have an engine that makes 1000 ft/lbs of torque at the crank at a very low RPM if will not make a good TV engine because it can't do work in a timely fashion.

Now if you have an engine that makes 1000 HP at a high RPM it won't be fun to drive as a TV but with the right and enough gears it will fly up hills.

A good TV will have a good balance of both.

[ShinerBock]

Double post

[ShinerBock]

spoon059 wrote:

3 words... Jim Beam Vanilla...

You are welcome!

Hmmm, I might have to try that. Thanks!