The China-Bomb debate Put to rest

[4X4Dodger]

Almost every week or more a thread appears with someone with a tire question. And just as predictably the China Bomb experts come out and start decrying all Chinese made tires.

Then usually they recommend MAXXIS tires. Maxxis are held in almost religious high regard by some here and they claim are NOT made in China.

This is usually followed by several others who also recommend Maxxis.

I personally have no doubt that Maxxis are good tires. As are Goodyears, Kumho, Cooper and many other brands. But I don't beleive they are SIGNIFICANTLY better than any other.

I have tried in many of these posts to bring some perspective on Chinese manufacturing which I know quite well from my professional life. I also try to bring some facts to bear on the subject.

So in an effort to arm myself with more facts I was doing some research on Tire Manufacturing in China and came across a very interesting article in a Tire Industry Publication Called Tire Review.

The chart below appears in that article clearly showing that MAXXIS is part of one of the largest tire manufacturers in China. Note also the inclusion of several western tire manufacturers who also manufacture in China.

From Tire Review Magazine 10/1/2015 David Shaw



Now for a little context: The article I cite was written about the tire Industry IN China ie it centered mostly on the Chinese Domestic market. It did cover the issue of exports also. But it's main focus was the Domestic Chinese market.

The article goes on to explain that there is currently a shakedown taking place in the Chinese Tire industry with some new US tariffs being applied (due to alleged Dumping) and new regulations on the industry by the Government of China. Here is a quote:

"U.S. duties aside, probably the biggest factor in the Chinese tire industry crisis is the slew of new legislation being issued by the Chinese government and managed through the CRIA. China is set to become the most-heavily regulated country in the world for tire manufacturing."

and...According to the article China dominates the GLOBAL market for tires.

I hope this takes a few steps towards normalizing the debate on this site about China Bombs and how great Maxxis are.

The FACT is that some great tires are made by many companies in China, by Chinese, American and European companies.

So please lets just stop the China Bomb rants and stop encouraging folks who have tire questions to replace all the tires that came on their new trailers. It's a waste of money and there is no evidence of any kind that it is either necessary or desirable.

As you can see those revered MAXXIS are owned by a Chinese firm and are manufactured in China as well as some other Asian countries.

[4X4Dodger]

Irelands child wrote:
First of all, to the OP - this subject is not nor ever will be put to rest - or at least not by any declaration here or any other RV forum. Secondly, much of the information presented is anecdotal, hearsay or just plain wrong. Am I an expert - not a chance. Do I like 'China Bombs'? No, there is just too much evidence, real and again, anecdotal, that there are manufacturing shortcuts, hence failures on these very lightly made, soft sidewall tires. Is my 'evidence' supported by real fact? Nope, not really except that ST tires have a super soft sidewall and even the tread area is soft and not very resistant to outside contributing sources of failures. Yes, I have physically 'tested' a heavy, 50 pound LT (Michelin) next to a 35 pound ST (Tow Max), both 235/85-16 side by side. Do I drive fast - not really though I do travel at 70 or so when on Western high limit Interstates just to kinda keep up with traffic. It's also often in the 90+ degree range West of the Mississippi. For sure I couldn't do that with an ST tire as they build to 130 degrees and often over 100psig on our 12,000 pound, 38 foot 5th wheel. The LTs - well they seldom get more then a few degrees higher then ambient and have never gone beyond 90psig build up, all temp and pressure numbers as measured by my TST TPMS. As far as 'top' speed - those current LTs on the trailer are fine to 106mph, the same as my truck. I'll never drive that speed, but it sure is nice to have that speed cushion. Then when all is said, there are those that like the TBC importer's Chinese Sailun, G rated tire which is overkill for most trailers - but they do seem to survive if you have wheels that will handle 110psig.

All of this - it's what you are comfortable using. If you tow many thousands of miles, any low end Chinese made OEM tires may not give you that warm feeling. If you tow fifty to hundred miles a few times a year, or use your RV at a seasonal CG as many do, those 'Bombs' will probably serve you well.

Anecdotal evidence is just that; Anecdotal or put another way...based on "Faith".

The rule I posted is the result of not only government testing but cooperation with outside testing labs and the industry (which by the way has a rightful place at the table)

This is the exact opposite of anecdotal...it revolves around real world testing and science.

Your ideas revolve around the same sort of attitude that kept so many believing the world was flat and put Galileo in a Papal jail cell. That's not my idea of an enlightened attitude in the 21st century.

At least be intellectually honest and admit the science is what it is and say "even though I see the facts I prefer to use LT tires"

That I could respect. Blind refutation of the facts is harder for me to swallow and respect.

[dewey02]

Based on his record in predicting that the China Bomb debate is put to rest, I don't even want to know the OP's predictions on sporting events, the presidential race, or even which way someone's toilet paper comes off the roll.

There are people who still believe the world is flat. Did the OP think he would really convince everyone with his post?

Dodger, You are no Jean Dixon...well, based on her prediction record...maybe you are!

[4X4Dodger]

gmw photos wrote:
Dodger, just to keep this real, and on topic, consider the following in regards to your comments. You state the above regulation is too long to post here. It is indeed a long document. ( dot 49 cfr ).
I skimmed down thru it, and found the following statements/paragraphs interesting. Quoting directly from the document:

"The TRA asked that special-use tires such as ST, FI, and 8-12 rim diameter and below tires (typically used on smaller, towed trailers) be excluded from FMVSS No. 139..... "

and it goes on in another paragraph:

"Therefore, the agency has decided to exclude bias, ST, FI, and 8-12 rim diameter tires from FMVSS No. 139. These tires, however, will continue to be covered by FMVSS No. 109 and 119. FMVSS No. 109 will not be deleted."

....it is a lengthy document. You might find it interesting reading, if you read all of it.

You should look for the cliff edge before you jump:

Yes READ the quote: your quote refers to BIAS Ply tires which the new regulation does indeed ignore because as they say: They represent a tiny share of the current market.

Virtually all new ST tires are RADIALS and this is the tires the rule I posted deals with.

[4X4Dodger]

Arcamper wrote:

4X4Dodger wrote:
I think my last post (above) scared off those LT Cheerleaders. LOL

But my genuine guess is it didn't, they just don't know how to respond to the facts as described by the NHTSA.

Not scared off, was out having my LT's pulled off and ST's put on my trailer. Now I am trying to find a Ford 6.0 diesel to put in the place of my 6.7 Cummins because some say it's a good engine too. Then I am putting ST's on my truck because it sounds like they are better than anything else out there. 😉

Will let you know how it all works out.....

Sarcasm is the last refuge of the intellectually indigent.

[Irelands_child]

First of all, to the OP - this subject is not nor ever will be put to rest - or at least not by any declaration here or any other RV forum. Secondly, much of the information presented is anecdotal, hearsay or just plain wrong. Am I an expert - not a chance. Do I like 'China Bombs'? No, there is just too much evidence, real and again, anecdotal, that there are manufacturing shortcuts, hence failures on these very lightly made, soft sidewall tires. Is my 'evidence' supported by real fact? Nope, not really except that ST tires have a super soft sidewall and even the tread area is soft and not very resistant to outside contributing sources of failures. Yes, I have physically 'tested' a heavy, 50 pound LT (Michelin) next to a 35 pound ST (Tow Max), both 235/85-16 side by side. Do I drive fast - not really though I do travel at 70 or so when on Western high limit Interstates just to kinda keep up with traffic. It's also often in the 90+ degree range West of the Mississippi. For sure I couldn't do that with an ST tire as they build to 130 degrees and often over 100psig on our 12,000 pound, 38 foot 5th wheel. The LTs - well they seldom get more then a few degrees higher then ambient and have never gone beyond 90psig build up, all temp and pressure numbers as measured by my TST TPMS. As far as 'top' speed - those current LTs on the trailer are fine to 106mph, the same as my truck. I'll never drive that speed, but it sure is nice to have that speed cushion. Then when all is said, there are those that like the TBC importer's Chinese Sailun, G rated tire which is overkill for most trailers - but they do seem to survive if you have wheels that will handle 110psig.

All of this - it's what you are comfortable using. If you tow many thousands of miles, any low end Chinese made OEM tires may not give you that warm feeling. If you tow fifty to hundred miles a few times a year, or use your RV at a seasonal CG as many do, those 'Bombs' will probably serve you well.

[gmw_photos]

As I view it, the main advantage of these discussions is that at least folks are talking about the subject, and raising awareness of the importance of thinking about a huge safety issue.

If it doesn't do anything else, at least maybe it will suggest to some folks that are new to trailiering, step out there and check the air in their tires.

[GrandpaKip]

Well, I think it really has been settled. There are folks who believe in ST tires and there are the ones who believe in LT tires. And then there's the rest who are on the fence, don't really care, or don't want to be bothered.
For what it's worth, I will take anecdotal evidence over governmental testing most any time.

[sammytoo]

Sure glad that's been settled.

[phone_man]

jerem0621 wrote:

phone man wrote:
I towed for years on China Bombs and unheard of brand names. I bought Maxxis tires after reading so many good things about them. This is a properly inflated less than 2 year old Maxxis tire.


I'm going LT tires next time.

So how long did you drive on that tire? I mean did it go boom and you immediately pulled over...was there a boom? Or did it just go flat and you drove on it for miles and miles...

Left San Antonio in the morning after checking my cold air pressure. Drove about 70 miles on interstate highway at 62 mph, heard a pop, looked at my wife, guy pulled up beside me and yelled I had lost a tire, pulled over. From pop to pull over less than 2 minutes. Lost the tire and 3K in damages to trailer.


Thanks

[Huntindog]

One more pretty obvious thing to me... Your info talks about light trucks having a higher percentage of tire problems than passenger cars.

But what is missing is that most light trucks are of the 1/2 ton variety. And they often (maybe always) come with "P" tires.

[Huntindog]

4X4Dodger wrote:
Here is information from the NHTSA and 49CFR Rulmaking regarding ALL TIRES for light Vehicles (including trailers under 10,000lbs gvwr.

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

49 CFR Part 571
Docket No. NHTSA-03-15400
RIN 2127-AI54
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards; Tires

AGENCY: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), Department of Transportation.

ACTION: Final Rule.

SUMMARY: The Transportation Recall Enhancement, Accountability, and Documentation Act of 2000 mandates that we conduct a rulemaking proceeding to revise and update our safety performance requirements for tires. In response, we are establishing new and more stringent tire performance requirements that will apply to all new tires for use on light vehicles, i.e., those vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds or less, except motorcycles and low speed vehicles

First: B. Highlights of the Final Rule

requirements that apply to all new radial tires for use on passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, trucks, buses and trailers that have a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 4,536 kg (10,000 pounds) or less and that are manufactured after 1975, and to all new passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, trucks, buses and trailers that have a GVWR of 4,536 kg (10,000 pounds) or less. The requirements are fully summarized in section VI.A. of this document.

Meaning: ST and LT Tires meet the same Safety and MFG Standards.

Read on: think your LT tires are so much better than ST?

2. Safety Problems Associated with Tires

Essentially, the size of the tire problem has remained the same over the last eight years. With the increasing sales of light trucks, and the fact that light trucks have more tire problems than passenger cars, the problem has shifted more toward light trucks and away from passenger cars. As discussed in the NPRM, several crash files contain information on "general" tire related problems that precipitate crashes. The more recent of these files are the National Automotive Sampling System - Crashworthiness Data System (NASS-CDS)(9) and the Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS).(10)

NASS-CDS data for 1995 through 1998(11) indicate that there are an estimated 23,464 tow-away crashes per year coded by the NASS investigators (relying on the police report of the crash) as having been caused by blowouts or flat tires. Based on that estimate, about one-half of one percent of all crashes are caused by these tire problems. The rate of blowout-caused crashes for light trucks (0.99 percent) is more than three times the rate of those crashes for passenger cars (0.31 percent). Blowouts cause a much higher proportion of rollover crashes (4.81) than non-rollover crashes (0.28), and more than three times the rate in light trucks (6.88 percent) than in passenger cars (1.87 percent).

FARS data for 1999 through 2001 show that 1.10 percent of all light vehicles in fatal crashes were coded by investigators as having had tire problems. Light trucks had slightly higher rates of tire problems (1.34 percent) than passenger cars (0.92 percent). The annual average number of vehicles with tire problems in FARS was 528 (255 passenger cars and 273 light trucks). End Quote

The rule is too long to post here but here is the link to the entire rule. It might make uneasy reading for those of you who believe that ST tires are something of a panacea for all things ST related.

49CFR NHTSA

A door sticker from a manufacturer means little or nothing in terms of which tires are better for a given vehicle. The only thing the trailer manufacturer has to comply with is that the tires be rated for the intended GVWR. In reality they may not be the best choice.

Once again I repeat: To those of you who believe that LT tires are fundamentally or intrinsically better than comparable ST Tires...Where are your sources? So far No One has posted a single article, Rule, Law or testing data that supports that argument. Meanwhile I have posted many with easily googled references.

What you have posted is a TINY part of the regulations. It would take literally days to read and track down all of it to decipher it all.

Fortunantly, a member here Senior GNC did just that. When he posted it originally all of the supporting links worked. Many of us here have read them.. The govt. website has been redone, and the links no longer work... The info is still there, but you gotta look for it. It is not an easy read. When I was last digging around, I found some regs regarding ST tires limited to super low speeds.... IIRC, about 25 mph! But some more digging found that those tires were for lawn equiptment and the like. What you have posted here barely scratcheds the surface... Of course you are happy with what you have "discovered" and stopped looking. The whole truth is available, if you really wanna read it.

[FLGup]

4X4Dodger wrote:
..........

Clip......

Essentially, the size of the tire problem has remained the same over the last eight years. With the increasing sales of light trucks, and the fact that light trucks have more tire problems than passenger cars, the problem has shifted more toward light trucks and away from passenger cars........

Clip.....

Most light trucks (150 or 1500 size pickups) are sold wilth P-rated tires. Wouldn't accident data collected then be indicative of passenger tires on light trucks and not ST or LT tires?

[dodge_guy]

I thought this was put to rest as the title states!!!

[RinconVTR]

4X4Dodger wrote:
Here is information from the NHTSA and 49CFR Rulmaking regarding ALL TIRES for light Vehicles (including trailers under 10,000lbs gvwr.

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

49 CFR Part 571
Docket No. NHTSA-03-15400
RIN 2127-AI54
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards; Tires

AGENCY: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), Department of Transportation.

ACTION: Final Rule.

SUMMARY: The Transportation Recall Enhancement, Accountability, and Documentation Act of 2000 mandates that we conduct a rulemaking proceeding to revise and update our safety performance requirements for tires. In response, we are establishing new and more stringent tire performance requirements that will apply to all new tires for use on light vehicles, i.e., those vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds or less, except motorcycles and low speed vehicles

First: B. Highlights of the Final Rule

requirements that apply to all new radial tires for use on passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, trucks, buses and trailers that have a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 4,536 kg (10,000 pounds) or less and that are manufactured after 1975, and to all new passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, trucks, buses and trailers that have a GVWR of 4,536 kg (10,000 pounds) or less. The requirements are fully summarized in section VI.A. of this document.

Meaning: ST and LT Tires meet the same Safety and MFG Standards.

Read on: think your LT tires are so much better than ST?

2. Safety Problems Associated with Tires

Essentially, the size of the tire problem has remained the same over the last eight years. With the increasing sales of light trucks, and the fact that light trucks have more tire problems than passenger cars, the problem has shifted more toward light trucks and away from passenger cars. As discussed in the NPRM, several crash files contain information on "general" tire related problems that precipitate crashes. The more recent of these files are the National Automotive Sampling System - Crashworthiness Data System (NASS-CDS)(9) and the Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS).(10)

NASS-CDS data for 1995 through 1998(11) indicate that there are an estimated 23,464 tow-away crashes per year coded by the NASS investigators (relying on the police report of the crash) as having been caused by blowouts or flat tires. Based on that estimate, about one-half of one percent of all crashes are caused by these tire problems. The rate of blowout-caused crashes for light trucks (0.99 percent) is more than three times the rate of those crashes for passenger cars (0.31 percent). Blowouts cause a much higher proportion of rollover crashes (4.81) than non-rollover crashes (0.28), and more than three times the rate in light trucks (6.88 percent) than in passenger cars (1.87 percent).

FARS data for 1999 through 2001 show that 1.10 percent of all light vehicles in fatal crashes were coded by investigators as having had tire problems. Light trucks had slightly higher rates of tire problems (1.34 percent) than passenger cars (0.92 percent). The annual average number of vehicles with tire problems in FARS was 528 (255 passenger cars and 273 light trucks). End Quote

The rule is too long to post here but here is the link to the entire rule. It might make uneasy reading for those of you who believe that ST tires are something of a panacea for all things ST related.

49CFR NHTSA

A door sticker from a manufacturer means little or nothing in terms of which tires are better for a given vehicle. The only thing the trailer manufacturer has to comply with is that the tires be rated for the intended GVWR. In reality they may not be the best choice.

Once again I repeat: To those of you who believe that LT tires are fundamentally or intrinsically better than comparable ST Tires...Where are your sources? So far No One has posted a single article, Rule, Law or testing data that supports that argument. Meanwhile I have posted many with easily googled references.

This needs to be published as its own sticky and locked so no one can reply.

Thank you 4x4Dodger. Thank you VERY much.

[dave54]

JIMNLIN wrote:
... In the mean time the ST vs LT debate rages on ......for some folks.

True. Some people have made up their minds based on some random internet post and are not going to let facts or logic change their minds. In the psychology world it is called confirmation bias.