Trailer brakes issues

[Olsy]

So I have a brand new 2013 GMC sierra with factory brake controller and HD tow package. Trailer is a 2012 KZ Spree Escape 170s. Brake controller sometimes will recognize the trailer but most of the time wont. I can get them to work (allbeit sketchy) if i turn on the vehicle with manual paddles held shut and slowly release while i accelerate, then when i come to a complete the brakes kick and i need to restart the process. I have had the truck looked at by GM, while i was standing and they perfectly fine, i have replaced the plug end and nothing, tried dielectric grease and nothing. I thought i fixed when i noticed the trailer ground was not very good, after that, they seemed to work fine. The trailer brakes work fine while plugged into our Ford Escape with after market controler...

Any ideas here? I am stumped

[Gdetrailer]

Olsy wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

Olsy wrote:
Gdetrailer, my truck is basically new off the lot, i waited the required 800km (500 miles) to tow, and same problem...i stopped by the storage lot on the way home and noticed the same trailer parked a few spots over, so i backed up and plugged in (i asked permission first from security) and had no issues so IT'S for sure my trailer, which i suspected all along anyways...i always planned to re wire anyways (and trust me here it is not something i cant handle), i am trying to gather as much info as i can before i tackle this (i dont think will take to long anyways). If it doesnt solve the problem i will try paralleling another set of mags ( which i do believe is hoaky as you stated, but i'd rather have brakes than no brakes), in a side note, wouldnt it be cheaper and more effective to simply put a resistor in parallel versus mags, just a thought (a load is a load)

Resistors would be cheaper but they would not have enough inductance required to create the return impulse that the brake controller is looking for (remember that the controller sends a pulse then it listens for the returned pulse from the magnets).

Resistors would present extra CURRENT load but that is not what the controller is looking for. It is looking for the size and timing of the return pulse to determine if the brakes are present.

One of the biggest problem about adding extra magnets is that the extra magnets could potentially "steal" more of the braking current from the other magnets.

Basically ohms law at work.. adding the extra magnets CLOSER to the front of the trailer means that they offer a lower resistance than the magnets at the far end at the axles due to resistance in the extra wire PLUS all the bad or poor connections at the axles. The result is the front magnets soak up more power and the farthest away magnets get less (and those are the ones that NEED the most to stop you :E ).

I am just amazed at what lengths of laziness folks are willing to do just to get it on the road :E

By using a heavier ga wire you reduce the resistance of the wire which in turn provides higher voltage to the magnets which allows the magnets to draw more current which gives stronger magnetic field which makes for much stronger braking. Fixing old crimp splices goes a long way to reduce the resistance of the splices (weather really gets to non protected outdoor splices).

My setup I only need to set my IBC at 4.5 out of 10 (less than HALF of the controller output) to get strong braking. To me, that is worth the time and effort :B

Good call, i never thought of the inductance since it is an inductor versus a resistor...thanks for the input

I should mention that I am not including disc brakes in this discussion which use electric over hydraulic. There are known issues with the hydraulic pump controller often not being recognized by many brake controllers (not just IBC units). Often there is an upgrade controller for the hydraulic pump to fix this issue..

[Olsy]

Gdetrailer wrote:

Olsy wrote:
Gdetrailer, my truck is basically new off the lot, i waited the required 800km (500 miles) to tow, and same problem...i stopped by the storage lot on the way home and noticed the same trailer parked a few spots over, so i backed up and plugged in (i asked permission first from security) and had no issues so IT'S for sure my trailer, which i suspected all along anyways...i always planned to re wire anyways (and trust me here it is not something i cant handle), i am trying to gather as much info as i can before i tackle this (i dont think will take to long anyways). If it doesnt solve the problem i will try paralleling another set of mags ( which i do believe is hoaky as you stated, but i'd rather have brakes than no brakes), in a side note, wouldnt it be cheaper and more effective to simply put a resistor in parallel versus mags, just a thought (a load is a load)

Resistors would be cheaper but they would not have enough inductance required to create the return impulse that the brake controller is looking for (remember that the controller sends a pulse then it listens for the returned pulse from the magnets).

Resistors would present extra CURRENT load but that is not what the controller is looking for. It is looking for the size and timing of the return pulse to determine if the brakes are present.

One of the biggest problem about adding extra magnets is that the extra magnets could potentially "steal" more of the braking current from the other magnets.

Basically ohms law at work.. adding the extra magnets CLOSER to the front of the trailer means that they offer a lower resistance than the magnets at the far end at the axles due to resistance in the extra wire PLUS all the bad or poor connections at the axles. The result is the front magnets soak up more power and the farthest away magnets get less (and those are the ones that NEED the most to stop you :E ).

I am just amazed at what lengths of laziness folks are willing to do just to get it on the road :E

By using a heavier ga wire you reduce the resistance of the wire which in turn provides higher voltage to the magnets which allows the magnets to draw more current which gives stronger magnetic field which makes for much stronger braking. Fixing old crimp splices goes a long way to reduce the resistance of the splices (weather really gets to non protected outdoor splices).

My setup I only need to set my IBC at 4.5 out of 10 (less than HALF of the controller output) to get strong braking. To me, that is worth the time and effort :B

Good call, i never thought of the inductance since it is an inductor versus a resistor...thanks for the input

[Gdetrailer]

Olsy wrote:
Gdetrailer, my truck is basically new off the lot, i waited the required 800km (500 miles) to tow, and same problem...i stopped by the storage lot on the way home and noticed the same trailer parked a few spots over, so i backed up and plugged in (i asked permission first from security) and had no issues so IT'S for sure my trailer, which i suspected all along anyways...i always planned to re wire anyways (and trust me here it is not something i cant handle), i am trying to gather as much info as i can before i tackle this (i dont think will take to long anyways). If it doesnt solve the problem i will try paralleling another set of mags ( which i do believe is hoaky as you stated, but i'd rather have brakes than no brakes), in a side note, wouldnt it be cheaper and more effective to simply put a resistor in parallel versus mags, just a thought (a load is a load)

Resistors would be cheaper but they would not have enough inductance required to create the return impulse that the brake controller is looking for (remember that the controller sends a pulse then it listens for the returned pulse from the magnets).

Resistors would present extra CURRENT load but that is not what the controller is looking for. It is looking for the size and timing of the return pulse to determine if the brakes are present.

One of the biggest problem about adding extra magnets is that the extra magnets could potentially "steal" more of the braking current from the other magnets.

Basically ohms law at work.. adding the extra magnets CLOSER to the front of the trailer means that they offer a lower resistance than the magnets at the far end at the axles due to resistance in the extra wire PLUS all the bad or poor connections at the axles. The result is the front magnets soak up more power and the farthest away magnets get less (and those are the ones that NEED the most to stop you :E ).

I am just amazed at what lengths of laziness folks are willing to do just to get it on the road :E

By using a heavier ga wire you reduce the resistance of the wire which in turn provides higher voltage to the magnets which allows the magnets to draw more current which gives stronger magnetic field which makes for much stronger braking. Fixing old crimp splices goes a long way to reduce the resistance of the splices (weather really gets to non protected outdoor splices).

My setup I only need to set my IBC at 4.5 out of 10 (less than HALF of the controller output) to get strong braking. To me, that is worth the time and effort :B

[Olsy]

It may be a while until i can get this done, but when i do i'll be sure to take pictures and post a write up to make easier for others

[Olsy]

Gdetrailer, my truck is basically new off the lot, i waited the required 800km (500 miles) to tow, and same problem...i stopped by the storage lot on the way home and noticed the same trailer parked a few spots over, so i backed up and plugged in (i asked permission first from security) and had no issues so IT'S for sure my trailer, which i suspected all along anyways...i always planned to re wire anyways (and trust me here it is not something i cant handle), i am trying to gather as much info as i can before i tackle this (i dont think will take to long anyways). If it doesnt solve the problem i will try paralleling another set of mags ( which i do believe is hoaky as you stated, but i'd rather have brakes than no brakes), in a side note, wouldnt it be cheaper and more effective to simply put a resistor in parallel versus mags, just a thought (a load is a load)

[Gdetrailer]

Olsy wrote:

numberseven wrote:
1st the GM controller works great!!! but it is to sensitive and you need to install two electric brake magnets on the truck or trailer frame and hook them into the circut all the time, Just put one on each side of the frame and put a bolt through them and wire them in.
This will give it more LOAD and will work fine.

2nd You need to open the fuse box under the hood and make sure the large wire is hooked up and fuse installed, there is also one for the battery charge line.

If you follow this you will be very happy with the new unit, for further info log into "thedieselplace.com" and you can read all about it

This is what i was referring to in previous post at the beginning....these magnets you speak of, are they simply the same magnet i would find in my brake housing? If so how would you go about installing them? In parallel with each individual break or could i put to at the beginning or end the circuit? How would i physically install them? In some sort of an enclosure?

Do you have a link to good write up for this?

Thanks again!

:h

That is the hoakiest thing I have ever heard of not to mention not the smartest either.

Even GMs controller SHOULD be able to FUNCTION with only one AXLE to at least 3 axles (TWO brake magnets to SIX brake magnets) like Ford's IBC does.

Adding two magnets is simply FOOLING the IBC into working even though the WIRING is suspect.

So what do you do in the case that the OP has two different trailers, one with one axle and one with two axles?

If you simply add a pair of magnets to the tow vehicle then the IBC will be active all the time plus that defeats another safety which detects and TELLS you that your TRAILER BRAKES are disconnected...

Adding an extra set of magnets to the trailer will cover up the bad or poor wiring connections leaving you with possible WEAK trailer brakes.

Olsy, honestly, for your best interest rework the wiring on the trailer. When Ford first offered IBC MANY people had the same issue, FIXING the shoddy wiring in 99.9% of the time FIXED the problem.

Another thing to do is take your trailer to your GM dealer and have them hook up a new truck off the lot. See if the new vehicle detects YOUR trailer.

Someone else had also posted an answer about your question of the magnet pigtails. They are correct, you do not need to change the pigtails that stick out of the back of the brakes. Those wires come directly from the magnets. I would however encourage you to pull the drums and inspect the wires inside the drums for chafing and or breakage while you are working on it.

There are some easy checks you can do if you have a DC ammeter, you can check the current draw by the magnets. Each magnet should draw no more than 3A at 12V so two axles gives you four magnets for a total of 12A at 12V.

In this case you can use your break away switch (pull break way pin to activate) to apply full battery voltage to the magnets (don't need the truck connected but you do need a fully charged battery on the trailer connected to the trailer). Good connections and wiring should get you very close to 12A at 12V. If you see 11A or less then there is a wiring issue or even magnets not connected. Make sure when done testing to put break away pin fully back into the switch (should solidly click back in).

It is always a good idea to check break away switch every time you hitch up. I simply will pull the pin with trailer pigtail not connected and pull forward a couple of feet. This should lock all trailer wheels. Put pin back in and move again a couple feet and wheels now should turn free.

[Olsy]

numberseven wrote:
1st the GM controller works great!!! but it is to sensitive and you need to install two electric brake magnets on the truck or trailer frame and hook them into the circut all the time, Just put one on each side of the frame and put a bolt through them and wire them in.
This will give it more LOAD and will work fine.

2nd You need to open the fuse box under the hood and make sure the large wire is hooked up and fuse installed, there is also one for the battery charge line.

If you follow this you will be very happy with the new unit, for further info log into "thedieselplace.com" and you can read all about it

This is what i was referring to in previous post at the beginning....these magnets you speak of, are they simply the same magnet i would find in my brake housing? If so how would you go about installing them? In parallel with each individual break or could i put to at the beginning or end the circuit? How would i physically install them? In some sort of an enclosure?

Do you have a link to good write up for this?

Thanks again!

[CliffordG]

jamnw wrote:
This is great info. Does anyone have links to a good crimper and connectors?
I'm not currently having any issues but my OEM connectors are junk.

These are what you're after for connectors.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-3M-Heat-Shrink-Butt-Connector-Terminal-Marine-Wire-Waterproof-Perma-/281162098882?pt=Car_Audio_Video&hash=item41769128c2&vxp=mtr

Crimp those bad boys on with a crimp tool you can buy at Radio Shack and away you go! For extra double plus good connections use heat shrink tubing over the top of those and you'll never have a water / corrosion issue!

[numberseven]

1st the GM controller works great!!! but it is to sensitive and you need to install two electric brake magnets on the truck or trailer frame and hook them into the circut all the time, Just put one on each side of the frame and put a bolt through them and wire them in.
This will give it more LOAD and will work fine.

2nd You need to open the fuse box under the hood and make sure the large wire is hooked up and fuse installed, there is also one for the battery charge line.

If you follow this you will be very happy with the new unit, for further info log into "thedieselplace.com" and you can read all about it

[jamnw]

This is great info. Does anyone have links to a good crimper and connectors?
I'm not currently having any issues but my OEM connectors are junk.

[Lynnmor]

Olsy wrote:
Great posts Gdetrailer, lots of good info, i dont have much experience with automotive or trailer wiring but have LOTS of construction electrician experience, so this stuff is somewhat new to me but i get the basics... i am planning to do the re wire ad previously stated....the other brakes do run inside the axle, my only confusion is whether to run new just to the pigtail from each brake magnet or go right to the termination, im not real comfortable messing with actual brakes themselves..

Thanks aflgain

The "pigtail" coming thru the backing plate is the brake magnet. There is no other connection inside.

[Olsy]

Great posts Gdetrailer, lots of good info, i dont have much experience with automotive or trailer wiring but have LOTS of construction electrician experience, so this stuff is somewhat new to me but i get the basics... i am planning to do the re wire ad previously stated....the other brakes do run inside the axle, my only confusion is whether to run new just to the pigtail from each brake magnet or go right to the termination, im not real comfortable messing with actual brakes themselves..

Thanks aflgain

[Gdetrailer]

Olsy wrote:
Is there any special wire to use for this or can i simply use #10 stranded? Is there a certain type of insulation i should be looking?

Im pretty sure that the wire used was #16 but thats just off of memory

No real special wire or insulation needed, you can buy and use building wire from your local electrical supply or even Lowes, Home Depot. The stranded wire is used to reduce the chance of breakage and it flexes better than solid wire.

You can use the single wire (not romex), wire tying it to the trailer frame. Just be sure you run at least one wire for the positive and one wire for the ground. The ground wire for the magnets MUST run to the front of the trailer. Do not ground the magnets at the axles.

You will also notice that the magnet wires do not have different colors, pick one for the positive and one for the ground at each wheel (polarity doesn't matter which is why the color is the same for both wires on the magnet).

If you don't mind the wait, you can order wire off the 'net which will be stranded and have both the pos and neg wires in a jacket..

[Gdetrailer]

Olsy wrote:
Should i redo the actual termination to the brake or just run new wire to each brake pigtail?

That is up to you.

If you have the time and don't mind the added expense of running new wire you most likely will find that you have better brakes than before.

If your wires going to the other side are run inside the axle tube (you can see the red and black wires in one of the photos someone else posted) I would highly recommend disconnecting those and run new wires on the outside of the axle tube, it WILL save you headaches down the road.

If you are just trying to get to the bottom of the problem and time is short, cutting the crimps off and temporarily using wire nuts (be sure you have nice bright copper color at the connection, if wire is dull and corroded you will need to carefully either cut back until it is good or try to scrape the oxide off the wire).

Please note, wire nuts are a short term TEMPORARY way to make an outdoor connection and I am only suggesting that method as a quick way to redo without using a bunch of one time crimps. If you don't mind wasting a few crimps then go ahead with them but I would suggest using the water proof crimps which have a water proof adhesive.

You will need to investigate the connection at the front of the trailer, in many cases there is a junction box where the trailer pigtail goes into. The pigtail will typically use a blue colored wire for the brake wire from the tow vehicle. You should also find a wire from the break away switch connected to this wire.

Make sure that wire connection is good AND the grounding wire from the pigtail has a good connection to the ground wires returning from the brakes. The ground wire, brake wire ground, trailer frame wire and the trailer battery wire should ALL connect in this box together. This box may be on the tongue, under the floor near the tongue or sometimes inside the trailer near the tongue. Just trace the pigtail to where ever it stops at.