TT shopping frustration

[Shorteelaw]

We went out today searching for a TT that will meet our needs. We were very upfront with every sales person that we encountered regarding only having 940 max tongue weight available and every one tried to sell us something way heavier than everyone on this site tells us is safe. We found one that we LOVED but then we looked and it was 5300 dry and the dry hitch weight was 800 frickin pounds. Even at camping world they were insistent that we could do 6000 pounds DRY WEIGHT! So so frustrating!

[Gr8life]

Shorteelaw wrote:
We went out today searching for a TT that will meet our needs. We were very upfront with every sales person that we encountered regarding only having 940 max tongue weight available and every one tried to sell us something way heavier than everyone on this site tells us is safe. We found one that we LOVED but then we looked and it was 5300 dry and the dry hitch weight was 800 frickin pounds. Even at camping world they were insistent that we could do 6000 pounds DRY WEIGHT! So so frustrating!

Sorry if I offended you. I am still trying to find the question or question mark in your original post, or was it simply complaining about RV salesmen? Join the crowd, if that is the case. You have the numbers and information on how you want to spend your money. We don't. If you want someone to say that you can or should tow a specific trailer, post all the actual numbers about the combination.

[Goldstalker]

Shorteelaw wrote:

jmtandem wrote:

I guess I came on here for some advice on how to deal with these pushy salesman but instead I'm getting the same attitude of me not know anything.

You ask the right questions; you get the right answers! Everybody on this thread is taking time to help you. And you don't seem to appreciate it. You talk dry weights in your opening question. Everybody knows to look at real user or gross weights to calculate your answer. Nobody talks dry weights; you open the discussion with dry weights so what do you expect from us?

As to how to deal with salespeople. Easy answer-- know the products you want to look at and all their pertinent capacities and weights. Then tell the sales folks that only those are the ones you care to look at, nothing heavier or bigger. You tell them what you want, not them telling you what will work; you set the parameters, not them; you drive the discussion, not them. Do your due diligence before you show up at the dealership and your issues will be greatly minimized. A good salesperson will ask what you want and then try to sell you that or more. They are only doing what any good salesperson would do. Play the game, know your numbers before you go in. Every number on every model you want to look at is web based on line and easy to look up.

I very much appreciate most user's comments. If I didn't I wouldn't continue to come here for help. I don't appreciate those who expect me to be an expert and twist my words around or claim that I posted things I didn't or say I'm going to make extremely unwise decisions.

To me, dry weight is important because TT's have such a wide range of cargo capacities and no matter what trailer we go with, the number for us isn't going to change much. There are some TT's with a 950 cargo capacity and some with a 2000+ pound one. The one that has 2,000 pounds could very well be in our weight limit since we won't be hauling 2000 pounds. I hope that makes sense.

I appreciate your advice as to handle the sales people.

I agree the unloaded weight is what matters. Who cares about GVWR if your not gonna use it. It may just mean on trailer has heavier axles than the other.

[sh410]

For those who haven't read Shorteelaw's previous posts, has been through all of the processes to KNOW what his max tongue weight that his truck can handle. He has taken into account passengers,fuel and stuff.

[Gdetrailer]

Shorteelaw wrote:

jmtandem wrote:

We went out today searching for a TT that will meet our needs. We were very upfront with every sales person that we encountered regarding only having 940 max tongue weight available and every one tried to sell us something way heavier than everyone on this site tells us is safe. We found one that we LOVED but then we looked and it was 5300 dry and the dry hitch weight was 800 frickin pounds. Even at camping world they were insistent that we could do 6000 pounds DRY WEIGHT! So so frustrating!

It seems to me the solution is simple. Get more vehicle or look at smaller trailers. Never use brochure weights, nor dry weights. If you use gross weights and then find you are actually a little under gross then you have a small weight cushion. Don't forget to include the hitch weight into your payload reduction. Use 75-100 pounds to estimate the hitch weight.

Most towing guides for vehicles provide the 'best case' for payload and towing. This usually is with minimal options, no other people in the seats, tools, dogs, bicycles, kayaks, bbq, chairs, etc. The more in the vehicle, the less the tongue can weigh to stay within the payload/towing guidelines. The receiver on your vehicle should be placarded with the maximum towing capacities. Typically
two values are provided. One for 'on the ball' towing and the second for using a weight distribution hitch.

Ford does an excellent job in their on line towing guidelines. For gas engines they prescribe a reduction in towing capacity of two percent for each 1000 feet elevation and also a reduction for frontal area of the travel trailer or fifth wheel. Their normally aspired gas vehicles operating above 5000 feet elevation and considering the frontal reduction the towing capacity for the vehicle can be reduced by ten or more percent. Diesels are not affected by elevation as they are turbocharged. Living in Oregon you will be in the mouuntains so elevations and grades are things to think about.

My suggestion is to get the towing/payload guide for your vehicle and use that when shopping. Then use gross weight, not dry, for the travel trailer you want and see if they are a good match. Then use 13 percent for the tongue weight plus the weight of the hitch. For example a fully loaded trailer at 6000 pounds gvwr will have a tongue weight estimate at 13 percent of almost 800 pounds plus 75-100 pounds for the hitch or a total of nearly 880 pounds.

The rule of thumb is to get the RV you want first, then get the vehicle to tow it. Otherwise you are trying to find a RV to fit the tow vehicle, usually a compromise.

I KNOW we need a smaller trailer than they were trying to show us, hence my "frustration" that you quoted. The info you were providing as to how to know how much the receiver is rated for is how I came to the 940 (with wdh). Regarding your last comment... In an ideal world yes that'd be great... However the 3/4 ton trucks were 10,000 more than we spent for our 1/2 ton so the decision had to be made to either get a 1/2 ton and tow a smaller trailer or get neither. We are okay with our choice. There are plenty of lightweight trailers out there.

I guess I came on here for some advice on how to deal with these pushy salesman but instead I'm getting the same attitude of me not know anything.

940 lbs is the max that the HITCH is rated with WD, doesn't mean the vehicle will have enough actual cargo weight left AFTER you subtract your cargo and passengers in the VEHICLE.

So, you need to take a look at your door sticker and see what the vehicle cargo weight ratings say..

Then you add up the passengers in the vehicle and any "gear" or personal stuff that you put into the VEHICLE and subtract that from the vehicle cargo rating.

The result is the max amount of cargo which your vehicle can safely handle. This is the max tongue weight which your vehicle will be able handle.

For instance, my vehicle has 3400 lbs of cargo weight available, Driver is often already figured in at 150 lbs but some argue that the driver is not. In my example we will say that the driver is not..

So in my case, driver and one other adult 350 lbs, two teens 275 lbs and food, drinks entertainment stuff 100 lbs or 725 lbs in the cab.

We take a 4Kw gen at 110 lbs in the back, 4 bicycles for 100 lbs, 6x8 ft outdoor rug 25 lbs, assorted wood blocking and a plank for 20 lbs and 20 lbs of charcoal (got have some good cooking), 100ft of 12ga extension cord for 25 lbs, small tool box for 50 lbs. about 330lbs in the bed of the vehicle.

Add up the vehicle cargo and that is 1055 lbs.

3400 lbs - 1055 lbs = 2345 lbs of available cargo for my vehicle.

My trailer fully loaded comes in with a 750 lb tongue weight which means I am well within my allowable cargo weight of my vehicle..

2345 - 750 lbs = 1585 lbs available cargo..

Basically my cargo weight EXCEEDS my allowable hitch weight (the max is listed on my hitch)

You NEED to find your allowable cargo weight and do what I did above to find the max leftover cargo weight that you can safely tow.

Now to make things easier, instead of attempting to buy a trailer using the dry weights you NEED to search by the GROSS VEHICLE WEIGHT RATING. This WILL simplify your search.

Keep in mind the tongue weight must be within 10% to 15% of the weight..

So as an example we take a trailer which has 7,000 lbs GVWR it should have tongue weight of 700 lbs (10%) to 1050 lbs (15%).

Note, that in the above example that 1050 lbs (15% of 7,000 lbs) is a bit above your hitch rating.

So in reality you NEED to be looking at trailers which have a max GVWR of 7,000 lbs. But keep in mind that if your leftover cargo weight available is LESS than the hitch weight you will need to look for LIGHTER trailers than 7,000 lb GVWR..

Doing so makes your shopping a lot less hassle than trying to take dry weights and adding up all the gear you will be hauling..

Do your homework at home, then go to dealer lots and look at the trailers which fit your needs and weight ratings.

[Shorteelaw]

jmtandem wrote:

I guess I came on here for some advice on how to deal with these pushy salesman but instead I'm getting the same attitude of me not know anything.

You ask the right questions; you get the right answers! Everybody on this thread is taking time to help you. And you don't seem to appreciate it. You talk dry weights in your opening question. Everybody knows to look at real user or gross weights to calculate your answer. Nobody talks dry weights; you open the discussion with dry weights so what do you expect from us?

As to how to deal with salespeople. Easy answer-- know the products you want to look at and all their pertinent capacities and weights. Then tell the sales folks that only those are the ones you care to look at, nothing heavier or bigger. You tell them what you want, not them telling you what will work; you set the parameters, not them; you drive the discussion, not them. Do your due diligence before you show up at the dealership and your issues will be greatly minimized. A good salesperson will ask what you want and then try to sell you that or more. They are only doing what any good salesperson would do. Play the game, know your numbers before you go in. Every number on every model you want to look at is web based on line and easy to look up.

I very much appreciate most user's comments. If I didn't I wouldn't continue to come here for help. I don't appreciate those who expect me to be an expert and twist my words around or claim that I posted things I didn't or say I'm going to make extremely unwise decisions.

To me, dry weight is important because TT's have such a wide range of cargo capacities and no matter what trailer we go with, the number for us isn't going to change much. There are some TT's with a 950 cargo capacity and some with a 2000+ pound one. The one that has 2,000 pounds could very well be in our weight limit since we won't be hauling 2000 pounds. I hope that makes sense.

I appreciate your advice as to handle the sales people.

[rbpru]

I will give my example. I have an F-150 4x4 ecoboost with the standard towing package. It has a tongue weight of 500 lbs. and a towing capacity of 5000 lbs.

I add the WD hitch and the towing capacity goes to 9800 lbs. Ford figures 10% on the hitch so my WD hitch weight also increases.

My Dutchmen trailer sticker specs show a dry wieght of 5003 lbs it has a tongue wieght of 486 lbs. It has a max total wieght of 7700 lbs so I can load 2700 of cargo. This would of course give me a tongue weight of 770 lbs.

Now in the real world I am at 1000 lbs or so of trailer cargo, so my trailer trailer tongue weight is about 600 lbs.

Everything is within spec and I have no problems with this combination. I just wish I could get 10 mph instead of 9 plus.

There is nothing mystical in these numbers. The only unusual thing I noticed is a 5000 lbs trailer with an 800 lb. hitch wieght.

[wmoses]

Shorteelaw wrote:
Sorry in my last two posts (initial post on one of them) I said it but obviously I don't expect you to have to go back and read. It's a 2010 Nissan Titan 4x4 Crew Cab

Thanks. You might wish to consider creating a signature block which is automatically appended to each initial post on a forum page, containing pertinent information such as that so that you don't need to answer the same question time and again (and those willing to help need not wonder). 🙂

The truck you have is capable of 9400# according to the 2010 Trailer Life Towing Guide and a lot of folk (me included) like to use a rule of thumb limit of say 80% of that as the maximum fully loaded trailer weight, i.e. 7500#. Based on the 10 - 15% tongue weight you are looking at 750 - 1125#. You then have to figure out what your truck's hitch is rated for and what the rear axle is rated for. Once you come up with that number (which may be less than the 940# limit you mentioned), then you can work backwards to find the real GVWR for the trailer that your truck is limited to. To do that just take the number you arrive at and divide by 0.125 (median value).

Then, for a frustration-free dealership visit, just only consider trailers with that GVWR. If he is showing you something that is too heavy just dismiss it and tell him it is too heavy and lets get on with it. They have no clue and they are not there to help you pull the trailer, just to make the sale 'today'.

You can do most of the research online with that number and then only go to the dealer(s) for the trailer that fit the bill. When I shopped for my RV I knew what I wanted so the saleman told me nothing I did not already know. I just wanted to talk price. He would not meet my price so I bought elsewhere - no frustration. 🙂

Good luck in your shopping.

[MitchF150]

I got the same thing when I went to an RV lot.. The guy came out of the office as I was parking my truck (97 F150 at the time). I knew what I wanted and I knew what weights I wanted to stick with.

I told the guy that and he said, "oh heck, your truck can handle more trailer than that". I say, "well, not really and besides I don't want that big of a trailer anyway". I asked to see trailers with a queen bed, full width bath, no bunks, no slides and no more than #5500 GVWR..

He kept taking me to rigs with everything I didn't want... After the second one he tried to steer me to I went to the side where the weight sticker was and looked at the GVWR and would simply say, it's too heavy..

He tried all the tricks in the book. Like saying, "well your family is going to grow, so you need a trailer that will be able to handle that" and he again said "your truck can handle any of these trailers just fine".. I turned and said, "I don't have a growing family, it's just 2 of us and I can't afford those bigger trailers and I don't want to tow that much with my truck". I asked again if they had any trailers like I originally asked about and he said "no, we don't carry anything like that".. I said, "well, you should have said that when I got out of my truck and not wasted your time or mine" I said "thank you, have a nice day" and left.

Never went back to that dealer again. They went out of business a year or so later... 😉

The place I ended up buying from started out with the same speech and I simply said, I'm not interested in those.. I want to look at those ones over there, which was exactly the trailer I wanted... Still have that same trailer to this day and it's been great!

Good luck in your quest.. The best advice I can give is to just have fun with the salesperson if they get pushy or won't listen to what you want and if it comes down to it, simply walk.. 🙂 There are lots of places to buy an RV from, so take advantage of that..

Mitch

[jmtandem]

I guess I came on here for some advice on how to deal with these pushy salesman but instead I'm getting the same attitude of me not know anything.

You ask the right questions; you get the right answers! Everybody on this thread is taking time to help you. And you don't seem to appreciate it. You talk dry weights in your opening question. Everybody knows to look at real user or gross weights to calculate your answer. Nobody talks dry weights; you open the discussion with dry weights so what do you expect from us?

As to how to deal with salespeople. Easy answer-- know the products you want to look at and all their pertinent capacities and weights. Then tell the sales folks that only those are the ones you care to look at, nothing heavier or bigger. You tell them what you want, not them telling you what will work; you set the parameters, not them; you drive the discussion, not them. Do your due diligence before you show up at the dealership and your issues will be greatly minimized. A good salesperson will ask what you want and then try to sell you that or more. They are only doing what any good salesperson would do. Play the game, know your numbers before you go in. Every number on every model you want to look at is web based on line and easy to look up.

[westend]

Shorteelaw wrote:
I guess I came on here for some advice on how to deal with these pushy salesman but instead I'm getting the same attitude of me not know anything.

Don't get discouraged with the Forum, you're going to get all kinds of replies to your threads, some of them right on target and some way off the mark. The good news is that no one on the Forum is trying to profit from you as a salesman would.

From your initial post, it seems you have a situation with both getting the light weight and enduring sales pitches. I would think that interrupting the salesperson with "how much does it weigh?" at the beginning of every offering would eliminate a lot of leg work at the sales lot. If the salesman realizes that he is not going to sell anything to a knowledgeable customer that is above a certain weight criteria, he wouldn't insist on showing the heavier models. Yes, you're going to get some salesman trying to sell the heavier units in their line up but be firm about your borders regarding weights.

The buying experience can be frustrating if being impatient about finding the right fit. I would suggest to allow a good bit of time to find what is going to work for your family, maybe at least a couple of months. I'd also suggest you look at the used market as there are some advantages to that.

[mobilefleet]

from the info i see online the 2010 titan has a 9500 lb tow capacity which makes it well within tow specs for most trailers 30 ft or less. I have an 05 Springdale with 4 rear bunks with dry weight 6300 lbs. General rule of thumb is hitch weight is about 10% of dry weight, so i'd be at 630 lbs. You are 900 plus and have plenty of options. you can reduce hitch weight a bit by loading heavier cargo items (like mother-in-laws) closer to the back of trailer, and get yourself an Equal-i-zer brand hitch rated for 10k lbs and you are in business. Dry weight is indeed a good, useful starting point for making sure you are OK. Take my camper as an example. Most folks are not anywhere near an extra 2000 lbs of cargo on top of that unless you purposely pull around with all 3 holding tanks full, and water/waste water is about 8 lbs per gallon, so let's say you had (3) 50 gallon tanks, that would add 1200 lbs to the mix. Just be sure to tow with at least the waste water tanks mostly empty whenever you can, and you reduce GVW and tongue weight both by doing so. when you camp with no hookups you would prob fill your fresh water tank so you can have it for the trip, and that's fine. So I would say most trailers my size or less would fit your truck quite well, lots of options in that weight range leaving extra capacity when you need it.

[Shorteelaw]

jmtandem wrote:

We went out today searching for a TT that will meet our needs. We were very upfront with every sales person that we encountered regarding only having 940 max tongue weight available and every one tried to sell us something way heavier than everyone on this site tells us is safe. We found one that we LOVED but then we looked and it was 5300 dry and the dry hitch weight was 800 frickin pounds. Even at camping world they were insistent that we could do 6000 pounds DRY WEIGHT! So so frustrating!

It seems to me the solution is simple. Get more vehicle or look at smaller trailers. Never use brochure weights, nor dry weights. If you use gross weights and then find you are actually a little under gross then you have a small weight cushion. Don't forget to include the hitch weight into your payload reduction. Use 75-100 pounds to estimate the hitch weight.

Most towing guides for vehicles provide the 'best case' for payload and towing. This usually is with minimal options, no other people in the seats, tools, dogs, bicycles, kayaks, bbq, chairs, etc. The more in the vehicle, the less the tongue can weigh to stay within the payload/towing guidelines. The receiver on your vehicle should be placarded with the maximum towing capacities. Typically
two values are provided. One for 'on the ball' towing and the second for using a weight distribution hitch.

Ford does an excellent job in their on line towing guidelines. For gas engines they prescribe a reduction in towing capacity of two percent for each 1000 feet elevation and also a reduction for frontal area of the travel trailer or fifth wheel. Their normally aspired gas vehicles operating above 5000 feet elevation and considering the frontal reduction the towing capacity for the vehicle can be reduced by ten or more percent. Diesels are not affected by elevation as they are turbocharged. Living in Oregon you will be in the mouuntains so elevations and grades are things to think about.

My suggestion is to get the towing/payload guide for your vehicle and use that when shopping. Then use gross weight, not dry, for the travel trailer you want and see if they are a good match. Then use 13 percent for the tongue weight plus the weight of the hitch. For example a fully loaded trailer at 6000 pounds gvwr will have a tongue weight estimate at 13 percent of almost 800 pounds plus 75-100 pounds for the hitch or a total of nearly 880 pounds.

The rule of thumb is to get the RV you want first, then get the vehicle to tow it. Otherwise you are trying to find a RV to fit the tow vehicle, usually a compromise.

I KNOW we need a smaller trailer than they were trying to show us, hence my "frustration" that you quoted. The info you were providing as to how to know how much the receiver is rated for is how I came to the 940 (with wdh). Regarding your last comment... In an ideal world yes that'd be great... However the 3/4 ton trucks were 10,000 more than we spent for our 1/2 ton so the decision had to be made to either get a 1/2 ton and tow a smaller trailer or get neither. We are okay with our choice. There are plenty of lightweight trailers out there.

I guess I came on here for some advice on how to deal with these pushy salesman but instead I'm getting the same attitude of me not know anything.

[Shorteelaw]

wmoses wrote:

Shorteelaw wrote:
We went out today searching for a TT that will meet our needs. We were very upfront with every sales person that we encountered regarding only having 940 max tongue weight available and every one tried to sell us something way heavier than everyone on this site tells us is safe. We found one that we LOVED but then we looked and it was 5300 dry and the dry hitch weight was 800 frickin pounds. Even at camping world they were insistent that we could do 6000 pounds DRY WEIGHT! So so frustrating!

I am the LAST person to defend RV salespersons as they are RARELY knowledgeable about towing and (in my experience at least) are rarely RVers. They are all interested in making a sale no matter the criteria that you walk in with. Even if they start out listening to your wants they will end up spending more than 50% of the visit showing you "something else that you might be interested in". Can't blame them too much for that either because many of the folks shopping for an RV have no clue what they are looking for. Also the more complicated the parameters the more their eyes will "glaze over" and they will not hear all what you are asking for them to meet with their trailer options.

That said, nowhere have I seen in your post (and in several of your past posts; didn't read them all as I have to move on ...) where you mentioned your tow vehicle, or its rated capacities. You stated the limit on tongue weight was 940# and were shown trailers with tongue weights around 800# - what is wrong with that? When the trailer is loaded up most of the weight should be on the axles and it is up to the RVer to balance the weight distribution so that it is 10 - 15% of the total weight. If it is too heavy then it can be shifted backwards by loading more to the rear of the trailer. IOW, the 800# will grow but not necessarily to exceed your 940# limit.

My suggestion in minimizing frustration at the dealership is to go with basic but realistic limits on tow capacity and tongue weight, and then just focus on the floorplans that interest you. Keep it simple.

Good luck.

Sorry in my last two posts (initial post on one of them) I said it but obviously I don't expect you to have to go back and read. It's a 2010 Nissan Titan 4x4 Crew Cab

[Shorteelaw]

skipnchar wrote:
Do you plan on dragging around a completely empty trailer? Dry weight is a useless number and you should be looking only at it's weight when loaded with your stuff or better yet, looking at it's GVWR. Assume it's LOADED tongue weight will be 15% (then range from 10% to 15% and you need to be able to tow it regardless of how it's loaded). Just curious how you arrived at such an odd number as a maximum though. Are you sure it's not the HITCH rating you're looking at? If this is so AND if you still have available weight while staying within your axle ratings and your GVWR then you CAN go heavier.
Having more information about the tow vehicle would make it easier to provide some real answers as opposed to just having a discussion.

Good luck / Skip

Obviously the answer to your question is no... But the GVWR seems useless to us too because we won't be dry camping and many trailers are rated for close to 2,000 pounds of cargo which won't be applicable to us either.

Yes it is the hitch rating that I was looking at (which is coincidently in line with how much payload we have left after passengers and dogs are in the TV). Our TV is a 2010 Nissan Titan 4x4 Crew Cab.

[Shorteelaw]

Gr8life wrote:
This seems to be the third in a series. First the OP asked what all the acronyms concerning payload meant. The answers pointed in the direction of a 2500 or HD1500 series pickup. The second was something about "We purchased a half ton pickup and are disappointed with the low payload rating". I suspect the fourth will be "What can we do to increase the payload and stop the swaying with our tow vehicle?" Not picking on the OP, happens all the time on here. The same answer will always be, "Buy a combination that works well together and has a little extra capacity, "Just in case the kids grow up, or you decide to take a generator along".

If you are going to insult me, please get your facts straight. In my first post I never asked what the acronyms meant. I knew what they had meant and I was frustrated that the payload was so much less than it showed on the sticker. It was what it was - I just wanted some advice as to how that happened. I got my answer and moved onto asking how much I can tow with it. I got many many different opinions just like I'm getting on this thread. I'm not going to ask what I can do to include the payload. You're acting like I'm ignorant and I'm not. If you don't like people asking questions then get off of the forum. You're being a bully and it's not at all appreciated.