What will be your towing powerplant in 10-15 years ?

[Lessmore]

We seem to be living in a fast changing world...vehicle wise anyways. Lot of talk about how there will be no internal combustion engines available within the next 10-15 years or so, they all be zero emission electrical powered.

At this point I really don't know what is going to be available vehicle wise and although when we bought it new, we intended to trade in our 2015 gas engined vehicle in a new 2020 gas vehicle...at this point we've decided to keep what we have for a few years past 2020...just to see what shakes out in the vehicle market.

Given GM says they will introduce 20 new EV platforms in 2023 and I'm sure Ford will be there too...who knows what is going to be on the market.

I'm said to see Internal Combustion engines go...as I'm a enthusiast...but...

So my question for the day is what do you think your new tow vehicle you buy in 2030 or so...is going to be like and what will it's powerplant be ?

[BenK]

EV 'cars' that meet my personal criteria might happen within my lifetime, but don't think TV's will...

Have bee in love with electric cars since my first career in solid state, variable electric motor controls working my way through college. Circa late 1960's through 1980's.

But...the storage is still not there yet. Until then, ICE's will be my preference and why am planning to rebuild my 7.4L Suburban

It takes about 10-15 minutes to fill my almost empty 42 gallon gasoline tank. Like electric storage (no matter batteries, capacitor battery, etc) will take hours and hours on fast charge, which shortens the battery life.

Or carry 5 gallon Jerry cans, which to date, as no comparable battery pack. Maybe batteries underneath any trailer I might purchase in the future, but have found nothing yet

A good design battery system (electric motor and the biggie, the controller) will/can have that motor produce 100% rated torque at ZERO rpm and if the controller is designed to produce more (our industrial controllers would allow up to 300% for short periods, but our customers required 100% duty cycle 24/7).

The why of wanting 5.38's (want higher numeric, but couldn't find any I like) and a GearVendors OD, which will turn my 4L80E into an 8 speed with a double OD. It will be close ratio setup and have a 1st gear comparable or even lower to almost any other tranny's 1st gear. Add the transfer case and my Suburban will have a 16 speed setup, but can't shift the transfer case while moving like the old days...fashion statement crowd has the OEMs design them to be shifted from a standstill

Used to be able to smoke the stock tires (ordered the Suburban with 4.1's) and when towing, had to let off the throttle in order to save the tires

Les, that cam is also known as a RV or the last time built an engine...a 280 cam. It should have around 50% rated torque just off idle and full rated torque around 1,600 RPMs. With a red line around 4K RPMs...maybe a bit more if higher rate valve springs and roller everything in the valve train, but that is a rarity these days for a big block.

Pie in the sky wishful stuff would be direct injection and that the Army would release for public their next gen tank electric motor found while consulting on something. 1,400 HP at 480Vots and about the size of a basket ball (liquid cooled) that would fit in the tranny tunnel to empty the engine bay

{edit}...guess that tank motor is no longer, as the web site doesn't list it anymore

Tank motor

I've used some locomotive traction motors back in the 70's for a log
mill controller. That thing was about 6' in dia with a solid steel
shaft about 8" in dia.

Locomotives use electric traction motors as their main drive and a
diesel generator to supply it along with batteries.

A few years ago consulted on the next gen Hybrid and looked up traction
motors thinking electric is around the corner. Found this one:
Electrodynamics Associates 1500 HP traction motor

187 HP at 600 rpm
375 HP at 1200 rpm
750 HP at 2400 rpm
1500 HP at 4500 rpm

This one is still a proto type for the next gen tank.

It is small enough to go into our light duty trucks, but will be too
expensive. So it's little brother will apply.

Since 'some' electric motors can be over driven (think of Nitro
injection that the dragsters use on an internal combustion engine, ICE).

Since it has so much toque at the low end, won't need a tranny of any
kind. Transmissions are needed by ICE's because they have such low
end torque, even a diesel. Why locomotive is electric to get them
going (engine weighs in around 400K-500K lbs, plus the other cars).

So small it can fit in the space where the tranny 'used' to be.

Agree with you that the battery is now the limiting component/system.
But that will be solved soon enough, or just live with tons of Optimas
for a while....

{2nd edit}...just had to double check and did find that they still have that next gen Army tank motor listed...just buried a bit farther in their web side

High Torque Density Traction Motor

electrodynamics wrote:

Developed under contract from the U.S. Army TACOM, the motor is of a pancake type design with water-cooled stators.

The controller design is based on hysteretic switching of input current. Water cooled power IGBTs have control signals transmitted via fiber optic cables to prevent adverse effects of electrical interference.

Breadboard assembly and tests with partial loads have been completed.

Details:

Motor Diameter: 25 inches
Length: 10.5 inches excluding shaft

Speed.RPM...Continuous HP....DC Bus Voltage
4500...............1500..............1200
2400................750...............600
1200................375...............300
600.................187...............150

Note: Other speed, torque and voltage combinations available.

[time2roll]

danrclem wrote:

wanderingaimlessly wrote:
Batteries are a dirty business, and many places are shutting down.
Guardian article on EV's

The greens cant get it into their heads that moving the pollution to another location doesn't cure the worldwide problem. This becomes a NIMBY issue in North America, and the media plays along with it.

It makes them feel good about themselves.

According to science the earth's temperature has always been changing so I'm sure it's been hotter than it is now quite a few times. How does anybody know what the best temperature for the planet is.

Never mind all that. Electric vehicle just drives better.

[Me_Again]

danrclem wrote:
How does anybody know what the best temperature for the planet is.

For man kind, it is one that we can live in. The planet is currently headed in a direction that is going to make that increasing more difficult for the way we have been living. Maybe we will all die off and evolution will reset and start again.

Or maybe someone's god will step in and adjust the Earth's thermostat!

[danrclem]

wanderingaimlessly wrote:
Batteries are a dirty business, and many places are shutting down.
Guardian article on EV's

The greens cant get it into their heads that moving the pollution to another location doesn't cure the worldwide problem. This becomes a NIMBY issue in North America, and the media plays along with it.

It makes them feel good about themselves.

According to science the earth's temperature has always been changing so I'm sure it's been hotter than it is now quite a few times. How does anybody know what the best temperature for the planet is.

[Grit_dog]

Plan on being in whatever the second year Ram finally makes a 5th gen with new sheet metal and more than 6 gears. Since that's a couple 3 years out it should only be about 7 years old by then.
Or if GM makes a long bed mega cab Dmax, lol, then I'll have one of those!
Or if Ford makes a long bed mega cab, I'll still have a Dmax or a Cummins!!!

[Lessmore]

BenK wrote:

Lessmore wrote:
snip....

Or Ben...if you decide to keep your big block Suburban a big block Suburban...how about the GM Performance Catalogue HT502 V8... Rat motor...with 502 cubic inches, 406 hp @ 4200 rpm and 541 lb. ft. or torque @ 3200 rpm.

I recently picked up Chevy Performance catalogue from the local Chevy dealer...$ 5 USD...makes for great reading for a gearhead like me.

Of course cost of crate engines is something else again. 😄

Going on the back burner for now...daughter just had a cancerous brain tumor removed and am supporting her. Removed and radiation treatment went well. Crossed fingers for a while

California has a smog test every other year and big blocks are labeled 'potential gross polluters', so anything I do, must pass smog.

Am okay with that, as a 71-year old and remember visiting Disneyland as a kid and not enjoying the brown sky and difficulty breathing

A mild cam, SS valves and maybe better tappet rollers and rocker/rollers to allow a bit more RPM, but most likely will just build or crate 7.4L from GM.

Will go with 5.38 diff's and a 0.7 GearVendors to get more HP from a standstill and still have a double OD with final an approx 2.6 final gear to the axles

Stock has 100% torque at about 1,600-1,800 RPMs, so with 5.38's, can pull just about anything I want to

Used to occasionally see 15.2 MPG with the 4.1's, so am hoping to see a bit better than that with a 42 gallon main fuel tank

4L80E has a few rated for +1,000 HP with a 3-year warranty at about the same price as a normal rebuilt unit, so if only using it at less than half that rating, it should last a long time. Plus an anal about fluid flush schedules and always use synthetics

Either or both, junk yard (newer than mine) front seats, or have the old ones rebuilt

Saw a rear turbo kit years ago and might look into that, but after the above. Throttle lag is okay, as am addicted to HP, so that will manage me and just for high altitude cruising

Wish your daughter well.

Sounds like great plans for your Suburban.

We had one 'Rat' motor in our family and that was a long time ago. Back in '69 my dad bought a new '69 Impala, 4 door HT with the 396, THM 400 and 12 bolt rear axle.
It was a nice car, however the 396 was possibly the lowest tune BB in that engine series history...from '65 to '70.

It was the L66, 2 barrel, 9 to 1 compression...regular gas, rated at 265 hp and 410 ft. lbs. of torque. My father had a 4 barrel once ('56 Ford Fairlane with 312/225 hp) and as he had lots of trouble with that 4 barrel...he swore off 4 barrels. The L66 used regular gas and he bought it to tow my parent's 24 foot trailer.

It had plenty of torque and was good at towing...but not a dragstrip terror.

One of our cars now, is a 2015 Impala LT (later style) with the 3.6 liter, DOHC, 4 valve per cylinder V6, redline about 7000 rpm and a 6 speed auto. I like it a lot and have been impressed with it's acceleration and low rpm highway cruising. In Wyoming on the 80 mph interstate...it runs just under 2000 rpm @ 80 mph.

Sad to see GM drop it, as we had planned to trade it in on a new Impala...same equipment...in a year or so.

Now may look at either a Honda Accord Sport ( 2 liter turbo) or Nissan Maxima ( 3.5 liter V6)...as we like sedans and they don't look like they will be available anymore at GM.

I would say with your modifications planned with your Suburban...it looks to be useful, fun vehicle with very good performance. You mentioned possibly getting a mild cam. Years ago with a big truck engine like your Sub has...sometimes what was called a towing cam was considered...power at low and mid range. Is that what your considering ?

Les

[Reisender]

RoyJ wrote:

time2roll wrote:

Me Again wrote:
What electric vehicles need is slide in battery packs, you pull into a service station and the robot slides out your battery and slides in a fully charged one. They charge you for the amphours used in the battery removed. Larger vehicles might get 2, 3, 4 or more batteries. Chris

Probably do better in fleet service.

Many fleets of port container tractors, airplane tow trucks, etc., do use that strategy.

The problem for private cars is each station would have to stock hundreds of models of batteries for each make and model.

Why don't cars standarize battery packs? Perhaps, but in their argument, each pack has to be shaped around their chassis for performance, space, and crash protection.

For instance, be really hard to share a pack between a Corvette and Nissan Altima, even though the cars are the same weight class.

Yah that makes sense.

As well, some manufacturers liquid cool and some air cool their packs. As well some use different chemistries. I think there would have to be a lot of collaboration. Don’t see it happening in the short term.

The same thing happens with DC fast charging. There is CCS (European) Chademo (Japanese and some Korean) and Tesla. Tesla with the right adapters can use CCS (European models) and Chademo (some American models) but nobody has adapted to Tesla even though it is open source and patent. Chevy has gone CCS.

At least everybody got together on level 2 charging. Everybody uses J1772 although Tesla uses a small physical adapter. Comes with the car.

Non Tesla’s can also use Tesla level 2 chargers by purchasing an adapter but they are like 150 bucks. (We have one, works well).

I think their will be more collaboration on both physical and protocol formats in the next 10 years.

Jmho

[RoyJ]

time2roll wrote:

Me Again wrote:
What electric vehicles need is slide in battery packs, you pull into a service station and the robot slides out your battery and slides in a fully charged one. They charge you for the amphours used in the battery removed. Larger vehicles might get 2, 3, 4 or more batteries. Chris

Probably do better in fleet service.

Many fleets of port container tractors, airplane tow trucks, etc., do use that strategy.

The problem for private cars is each station would have to stock hundreds of models of batteries for each make and model.

Why don't cars standarize battery packs? Perhaps, but in their argument, each pack has to be shaped around their chassis for performance, space, and crash protection.

For instance, be really hard to share a pack between a Corvette and Nissan Altima, even though the cars are the same weight class.

[BenK]

Lessmore wrote:
snip....

Or Ben...if you decide to keep your big block Suburban a big block Suburban...how about the GM Performance Catalogue HT502 V8... Rat motor...with 502 cubic inches, 406 hp @ 4200 rpm and 541 lb. ft. or torque @ 3200 rpm.

I recently picked up Chevy Performance catalogue from the local Chevy dealer...$ 5 USD...makes for great reading for a gearhead like me.

Of course cost of crate engines is something else again. 😄

Going on the back burner for now...daughter just had a cancerous brain tumor removed and am supporting her. Removed and radiation treatment went well. Crossed fingers for a while

California has a smog test every other year and big blocks are labeled 'potential gross polluters', so anything I do, must pass smog.

Am okay with that, as a 71-year old and remember visiting Disneyland as a kid and not enjoying the brown sky and difficulty breathing

A mild cam, SS valves and maybe better tappet rollers and rocker/rollers to allow a bit more RPM, but most likely will just build or crate 7.4L from GM.

Will go with 5.38 diff's and a 0.7 GearVendors to get more HP from a standstill and still have a double OD with final an approx 2.6 final gear to the axles

Stock has 100% torque at about 1,600-1,800 RPMs, so with 5.38's, can pull just about anything I want to

Used to occasionally see 15.2 MPG with the 4.1's, so am hoping to see a bit better than that with a 42 gallon main fuel tank

4L80E has a few rated for +1,000 HP with a 3-year warranty at about the same price as a normal rebuilt unit, so if only using it at less than half that rating, it should last a long time. Plus an anal about fluid flush schedules and always use synthetics

Either or both, junk yard (newer than mine) front seats, or have the old ones rebuilt

Saw a rear turbo kit years ago and might look into that, but after the above. Throttle lag is okay, as am addicted to HP, so that will manage me and just for high altitude cruising

[Reisender]

Lessmore wrote:

Reisender wrote:

Lessmore wrote:
We make a trip across three prairie provinces...a bit more than 700 miles and we usually drive straight through in 12 hours or so with our IC vehicles. It's not business trips it's to visit family. We do this trip 3-4 times a year.

Last family trip was in late January of this year...temps for half the trip. eastern Saskatchewan, western Manitoba ranged from -28 to -33 and there are few towns in that area. The internal combustion engine in our vehicle was able to provide good cabin heat...but the heater fan and heat were turned up to close to maximum.

My understanding is that batteries lose efficiency at extreme cold temperatures and any cabin heat for the vehicle, comes from the batteries that are also providing motive power to the vehicle. EV range suffers in these conditions.

I know a vehicle range of 300 ( 186 miles) -400 (248 miles) kms ... in this cold would have that range lessened significantly in the cold winters we experience, out here during prairie winters.

We couldn't do our 12 hour...700 + mile (1,126 kms) trips. On the prairies, there are no passenger trains anymore. Greyhound cut out bus service. Plane service is good to major centres, but a lot of the prairies are rural and can be very cold in the winter and if you need to travel, you generally have to rely on your own vehicle.

Looks likely that EV's will eventually take over transportation...but there needs to be significant improvement in range, charging infrastructure. I'm sure it will be here eventually...out here...and EV's will improve battery range and charging speed....but that appears be a ways in the future.

Ahh yes. I remember those kind of trips well. Lived in Saskatchewan and Alberta. The other big challenge of having an EV in Saskatchewan is the complete lack of infrastructure for charging. And the goverment has made it quite clear there will be none in the future either. I would think eventually there will be a few DC fast chargers on the trans Canada though so people can at least pass thru though the province though. Maybe part of the Petrocan network.

I was watching The Fast Lane series on the daily life ownership of their Tesla 3. During the show, they were looking at the Tesla map that shows where Tesla chargers are available and they seem to be quite common in many areas...except in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, NW Ontario, the Dakotas, etc...and I'm guessing because this part of the world is a very cold, sparsely populated area of the continent.

Now I didn't see Alaska, the NW Territories, Nunavut, Yukon, etc...but I'll assume they are also not served well by charger infrastructure.

Now I'm not criticizing Tesla as other EV manufacturers..such as GM, etc. who say all their future will depend on completely EV vehicles...
...and to quote you (and I agree with you) ...the government (Cdn. Feds) has made it quite clear there will be none (EV infrastructure) in the future either...and so far...private companies don't seem to be setting up infrastructure..here..either.

So...I look at the transportation future of the prairies, the territories and some of the states I've mentioned...what are we going to do if the future is going to be EV all the way..but so far no sign of infrastructure to support these areas ?

It is a conundrum.

My hope is that some manufacturers...ie; Japanese companies such as Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc..continue to make IC vehicle and make them available in these cold, sparsely populated areas for the foreseeable future....until charging infrastructure, faster charging rates , etc..becomes readily available out here in the sticks. Of course, I'm hoping that the gas and stations to fuel IC vehicles in the future, out here, is still maintained, but who knows anymore.

Even though I've had mostly GM products for a number of decades...I'm close to the point of giving up on them...as they state that they won't be making vehicles that will meet my...perhaps minority in North America ...needs in the years to come.

I just read an article about a South Dakota man who is taking GM to court as his GM EV vehicle during cold winter months loses about 100 miles of range...due to extreme cold in the winter. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

Again I'm not anti EV...I just want good charging infrastructure, faster charging, etc...out here. Sitting in a dead EV (or IC) vehicle by the side of a lonely highway in -30...late at night...can be dangerous.

Yah. You nailed it. If we still lived in Saskatoon I’d be driving a Jeep Grand Cherokee. I’m not a fan of any of the hybrids right now but there is a whole new crop coming out in 2020.

I think people in the prairies and the dakotas will be able to buy gassers for decades yet. Don’t buy a saw if you need a hammer.

However, I think tourism will eventually be affected in these areas if they don’t have charging infrastructure. There are more and more families like ours that only drive electric as they are a better fit for us. The only problem is although we can travel all over BC and up and down the west coast, driving east past Calgary just isn’t going to happen. It’s a limitation we are willing to live with to get the convenience of driving EV’s.

I think EV growth will be substantial in B.C. in the next couple of decades but I think Alberta and Saskatchewan will see considerably slower growth as, well, they are just not that good of fit, at least in their present form. The technology is always improving of course.

[Lessmore]

Reisender wrote:

Lessmore wrote:
We make a trip across three prairie provinces...a bit more than 700 miles and we usually drive straight through in 12 hours or so with our IC vehicles. It's not business trips it's to visit family. We do this trip 3-4 times a year.

Last family trip was in late January of this year...temps for half the trip. eastern Saskatchewan, western Manitoba ranged from -28 to -33 and there are few towns in that area. The internal combustion engine in our vehicle was able to provide good cabin heat...but the heater fan and heat were turned up to close to maximum.

My understanding is that batteries lose efficiency at extreme cold temperatures and any cabin heat for the vehicle, comes from the batteries that are also providing motive power to the vehicle. EV range suffers in these conditions.

I know a vehicle range of 300 ( 186 miles) -400 (248 miles) kms ... in this cold would have that range lessened significantly in the cold winters we experience, out here during prairie winters.

We couldn't do our 12 hour...700 + mile (1,126 kms) trips. On the prairies, there are no passenger trains anymore. Greyhound cut out bus service. Plane service is good to major centres, but a lot of the prairies are rural and can be very cold in the winter and if you need to travel, you generally have to rely on your own vehicle.

Looks likely that EV's will eventually take over transportation...but there needs to be significant improvement in range, charging infrastructure. I'm sure it will be here eventually...out here...and EV's will improve battery range and charging speed....but that appears be a ways in the future.

Ahh yes. I remember those kind of trips well. Lived in Saskatchewan and Alberta. The other big challenge of having an EV in Saskatchewan is the complete lack of infrastructure for charging. And the goverment has made it quite clear there will be none in the future either. I would think eventually there will be a few DC fast chargers on the trans Canada though so people can at least pass thru though the province though. Maybe part of the Petrocan network.

I was watching The Fast Lane series on the daily life ownership of their Tesla 3. During the show, they were looking at the Tesla map that shows where Tesla chargers are available and they seem to be quite common in many areas...except in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, NW Ontario, the Dakotas, etc...and I'm guessing because this part of the world is a very cold, sparsely populated area of the continent.

Now I didn't see Alaska, the NW Territories, Nunavut, Yukon, etc...but I'll assume they are also not served well by charger infrastructure.

Now I'm not criticizing Tesla as other EV manufacturers..such as GM, etc. who say all their future will depend on completely EV vehicles...
...and to quote you (and I agree with you) ...the government (Cdn. Feds) has made it quite clear there will be none (EV infrastructure) in the future either...and so far...private companies don't seem to be setting up infrastructure..here..either.

So...I look at the transportation future of the prairies, the territories and some of the states I've mentioned...what are we going to do if the future is going to be EV all the way..but so far no sign of infrastructure to support these areas ?

It is a conundrum.

My hope is that some manufacturers...ie; Japanese companies such as Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc..continue to make IC vehicle and make them available in these cold, sparsely populated areas for the foreseeable future....until charging infrastructure, faster charging rates , etc..becomes readily available out here in the sticks. Of course, I'm hoping that the gas and stations to fuel IC vehicles in the future, out here, is still maintained, but who knows anymore.

Even though I've had mostly GM products for a number of decades...I'm close to the point of giving up on them...as they state that they won't be making vehicles that will meet my...perhaps minority in North America ...needs in the years to come.

I just read an article about a South Dakota man who is taking GM to court as his GM EV vehicle during cold winter months loses about 100 miles of range...due to extreme cold in the winter. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

Again I'm not anti EV...I just want good charging infrastructure, faster charging, etc...out here. Sitting in a dead EV (or IC) vehicle by the side of a lonely highway in -30...late at night...can be dangerous.

[travelnutz]

With having less that 5% (1 20th) of the planet's population we can do so little to counteract the 95% of what the rest of the planet's population does and has done to pollute the planet. The little tail does NOT wag the big dog and never has!

[travelnutz]

I'm very happy to report/state that I don't really give a rats behind as both I and we will very likely be underground fertilizing plant life or for sure not RV'ing or most likely driving either anyway as we would be well into our 90's.

The making (producing) of batteries, and electric motors is extremely polluting and the disposal of such is even far more polluting and with never ending constant growth year after year until life on the planet Earth has demised totally by ruining the ground water etc which we must have to even basically survive. This future pollution begs for unlimited biological new mutations being created and only accelerates rapidly and is a much greater threat to life on Earth which will be guaranteed to result. Not just the carbon etc that breaks down to known basic known elements from Dino today.

Guessing I would not want to even be alive in a world of tomorrow being chemically etc slowly killed by the newer created element and molecule mutations that will finally kill off the human race and the life as known today. Electrical power and storage process or methods/processes as it's not there for the simple clean picking free or is it non-polluting and must be created at and by/with so many very polluting and ever growing in size levels. Creating perpetual motion would be so much easier by comparison. How's the creation of perpetual motion coming along??? Yup, I thought so is the true answer!

[time2roll]

Me Again wrote:
What electric vehicles need is slide in battery packs, you pull into a service station and the robot slides out your battery and slides in a fully charged one. They charge you for the amphours used in the battery removed. Larger vehicles might get 2, 3, 4 or more batteries. Chris

Probably do better in fleet service.