Why don't the manufacturers recommend LT tires??

[profdant139]

I'm using Endurance ST tires. But a lot of people who I consider to be very smart use LT tires. So reasonable minds can differ on that point; the fact that so many smart folks use LT tires causes me to doubt my own decision to use ST.

But here is my question -- the manufacturers, such as Goodyear, strongly recommend ST tires for trailers. They know that they could be sued if their products are defective, so it seems to me that they have a strong incentive to recommend the safest alternative. That tips the scale for me -- I give a lot of weight to that recommendation, on the theory that they know more about tires than I do. I am not an expert in this area.

So for those of you who use LT tires, do you have a theory as to WHY the manufacturers do not recommend LT tires for towing? Note that I am not asking whether LT tires are better -- I assume that those of you who use LT have carefully concluded that they are superior to ST.

My question is why don't the manufacturers reach the same conclusion?

[JIMNLIN]

One more note on the process of online discussion -- were it not for the challenging and probing (and yes, sometimes abrasive!) questions from folks with strong opinions, I doubt that I would have gone to the trouble of carefully cross-checking the recommendations of the various manufacturers, leading to the surprising (to me) discovery that the top firms use both ST and LT as standard equipment on expensive and big trailers.

Were beatin' a old topic to death again.
Using LT or P tires on any type of trailer (even rv trailers) isn't anything new.
You can learn even more by spending time on other general rv webs like this one or a brand specific forum where it comes to tire issues on trailers.

Some rv trailer mfg have had LT tires as a upgrade option on some models in certain years.....usually heavy trailers.
Carriage Domani 11500 gvwr 5th wheel trailer had a optional 20" dia X 10" wide American Racing wheels with P285/75-20" tires. Trailers mfg are under no obligation or legally required to use ST tires.

And there is no liability issues for the trailer owner to use a different type of tire than is on the vehicle tire placard.

[profdant139]

Huntingdog and Tom, this is not about saving money, at least from my point of view. It is about saving lives (especially mine and DW's). So the fact that Airstream uses LT on their best trailers is very persuasive.

On the other hand, the fact that Arctic Fox and Lance (also premium labels) use ST, even on the bigger and heavier units, tells me that ST are not inherently inferior.

As a result, I am not yet going to discard my new USA-made Goodyear Endurance ST tires. They are Load Range D, and my trailer is tiny. They are rated for high speed, and I do not go over 62. I have several tire gauges and use them often. (Did I mention that I am risk-averse??)

But when time comes to replace them (in a few years -- not more than four), I will carefully consider whether LT might be a better choice. A lot will depend on the overall performance of the new Endurance line of tires -- the engineering is different from the Marathons, but it is too soon to say if they are really the best choice.

One more note on the process of online discussion -- were it not for the challenging and probing (and yes, sometimes abrasive!) questions from folks with strong opinions, I doubt that I would have gone to the trouble of carefully cross-checking the recommendations of the various manufacturers, leading to the surprising (to me) discovery that the top firms use both ST and LT as standard equipment on expensive and big trailers.

[TomG2]

Here is the deal. One guy buys a five year old camper. Forgets that it tracks differently from the tow vehicle and scrapes the "ST" right off the side of his tires. He notices that they look "A little low", but the air compressor at the gas station is out of order, so he takes a chance. You get the picture

Guy number two pays big bucks for his LT tires, walks around with a tire gauge in his pocket, and replaces tires every few years whether they need it or not.

Are LT's "better" than ST's? Guy number one is not on here giving personal testimonials, he is out camping with the family.

[Huntindog]

profdant139 wrote:
Well, I followed up on Huntingdog's suggestion, and I am surprised:

One model of Airstream, the Classic, uses LT tires. Almost all of the rest of their models are ST. This info is on the "Features" link for each model. The other exception is the little Basecamp, which uses 18 inch (!!) Goodyear Assurance tires. Not sure if those are LT or passenger tires, but they are not ST.

All Arctic Fox models, both trailers and 5th wheels, use ST. See this link and scroll down to the end:

Arctic Fox Brochure

The biggest Lance trailer I could find, the 2375, uses ST tires.

So this tells me something: first, the fact that Airstream uses LT tires on its biggest model means that LT tires are not unsuitable for towing. Airstream would not steer its customers wrong on a $140,000 trailer.

Second, the fact that almost all of the other high end models by Airstream, Arctic Fox, and Lance (three of the best manufacturers) use ST as standard equipment means that these luxury-market firms are happy with ST, which means that ST is probably not just a low-cost alternative.

Frankly, I expected to see LT tires on some of the big Arctic Fox units. They are known for building rugged trailers that go off-pavement.

So, based on the behavior of the trailer manufacturers (rather than the tire manufacturers, who are just responding to the trailer makers), I conclude that ST tires must be ok for most applications, especially smaller single axle trailers. But the fact that Airstream uses LT on its biggest unit means that LT tires are also ok, at least on large dual axle trailer. The caveat, of course, is that these would have to be high-quality tires, in either case.

That is not where I thought this discussion was going!!

I just looked at the Airstream brochure.

The Classic is not just one TT model. It is a whole line of models.
It is their very best, no compromises line.

It is interesting that not only do they SPECIFY LT tires for their top of the line TTs, but they SPECIFY what is considered by many to be the Gold standard.... Michelin® LT225/75R16 Tires.
That is what I run. IMO, they are the very best.
They are NOT cheap.

But compared the the "ahem", more affordable tires I used to run, they actually are cheaper over the long run. But it does hurt the wallet at replacement time.
Still, I won't ever run anything else. The punishment I have subjected them to would not be believed by the ST crowd... Yet they take it in stride. ZERO trouble of any kind in eleven years.
Yes I tow heavy and fast, in Arizona's high heat. Yes they have been curbed, hit pot holes and been driven over large sharp pointed rocks, been off roaded as a routine matter, and they just flat out work.
If they didn't, I would be making a change.
I will never again make excuses for a tires poor reliability. They need to do what I pay them for.

[rbpru]

It is all speculation and opinion until someone posts legitimate data from the DOT.

Even then conspiracy theorists will argue the true data was covered up. 🙂

10 percent is a generous guess.

[CapriRacer]

profdant139 wrote:
..... Why do trailer manufacturers recommend ST tires? Are there government regulations that require them to do so? Or government standards that recommend that they do so? .......

.......Bottom line -- I still don't know the answer to my question. .....

profdant139,

I am going to try to answer your question.

Manufacturers of motorcycles use M/C tires. Manufacturers of Passenger cars use P type tires. In other words, each type vehicle has a particular type of tire that is appropriate - and in the case of travel trailers it is ST type tires.

The advanatage of an ST tire is that it carries a lot of weight compared to how big it is. That makes it easier to package.

Are there goverment requirements for this? No!

Are there government recommendations? No!

Can a P type tire or an LT type tire be used on a travel trailer? Sure, but a P type tire requires more space to carry the same load and LT type tires don't come in the smaller sizes.

So it makes sense that a trailer manufacturer would try to use ST tires across the board - from the small trailers to the large ones. It simpllfies the engineering and the supply chain.

And just to clarify a point. Trailer manufacturers don't recommend ST tires, they specify them. It may seem like a minor point, but there is a clear difference.

[Huntindog]

profdant139 wrote:
Well, I followed up on Huntingdog's suggestion, and I am surprised:

One model of Airstream, the Classic, uses LT tires. Almost all of the rest of their models are ST. This info is on the "Features" link for each model. The other exception is the little Basecamp, which uses 18 inch (!!) Goodyear Assurance tires. Not sure if those are LT or passenger tires, but they are not ST.

All Arctic Fox models, both trailers and 5th wheels, use ST. See this link and scroll down to the end:

Arctic Fox Brochure

The biggest Lance trailer I could find, the 2375, uses ST tires.

So this tells me something: first, the fact that Airstream uses LT tires on its biggest model means that LT tires are not unsuitable for towing. Airstream would not steer its customers wrong on a $140,000 trailer.

Second, the fact that almost all of the other high end models by Airstream, Arctic Fox, and Lance (three of the best manufacturers) use ST as standard equipment means that these luxury-market firms are happy with ST, which means that ST is probably not just a low-cost alternative.

Frankly, I expected to see LT tires on some of the big Arctic Fox units. They are known for building rugged trailers that go off-pavement.

So, based on the behavior of the trailer manufacturers (rather than the tire manufacturers, who are just responding to the trailer makers), I conclude that ST tires must be ok for most applications, especially smaller single axle trailers. But the fact that Airstream uses LT on its biggest unit means that LT tires are also ok, at least on large dual axle trailer. The caveat, of course, is that these would have to be high-quality tires, in either case.

That is not where I thought this discussion was going!!

Arctic Fox has LTs as an option. Komfort uses LTs.
I know there are others, but they are smaller players... Which makes sense as the high end market is much smaller than the mainstream.

Perhaps a messsage to AF asking them why they make LTs available at all, would be enlightening.

[profdant139]

Well, I followed up on Huntingdog's suggestion, and I am surprised:

One model of Airstream, the Classic, uses LT tires. Almost all of the rest of their models are ST. This info is on the "Features" link for each model. The other exception is the little Basecamp, which uses 18 inch (!!) Goodyear Assurance tires. Not sure if those are LT or passenger tires, but they are not ST.

All Arctic Fox models, both trailers and 5th wheels, use ST. See this link and scroll down to the end:

Arctic Fox Brochure

The biggest Lance trailer I could find, the 2375, uses ST tires.

So this tells me something: first, the fact that Airstream uses LT tires on its biggest model means that LT tires are not unsuitable for towing. Airstream would not steer its customers wrong on a $140,000 trailer.

Second, the fact that almost all of the other high end models by Airstream, Arctic Fox, and Lance (three of the best manufacturers) use ST as standard equipment means that these luxury-market firms are happy with ST, which means that ST is probably not just a low-cost alternative.

Frankly, I expected to see LT tires on some of the big Arctic Fox units. They are known for building rugged trailers that go off-pavement.

So, based on the behavior of the trailer manufacturers (rather than the tire manufacturers, who are just responding to the trailer makers), I conclude that ST tires must be ok for most applications, especially smaller single axle trailers. But the fact that Airstream uses LT on its biggest unit means that LT tires are also ok, at least on large dual axle trailer. The caveat, of course, is that these would have to be high-quality tires, in either case.

That is not where I thought this discussion was going!!

[profdant139]

Huntingdog, you have hit upon a great "real world" way to measure this issue. If some ambitious person could show that (for example) Airstream, Arctic Fox, and Lance all require LT tires, while the cheaper companies (insert name here) use ST, that would go a long way toward persuading me of two things:

First, that LT tires can be superior to ST tires, according to folks whose bottom line depends on that difference.

Second, that LT tires are higher-end products, while ST tires are low-end mass market tires.

If I discover that LT tires are demonstrably superior, I will be enlightened but annoyed, after shelling out big bucks for my new Goodyear Endurance tires.

On an entirely different plane, notice that this discussion has not been a pointless exercise in chest-thumping. By kicking this issue around (and focusing on the behavior of manufacturers, both of tires and trailers), we as a group may have moved the ball downfield. It's too soon to say, but certainly Huntingdog's observation, if borne out by the data, is really useful.

This discussion is not a waste of time -- it is useful. Yes, there have been some comments that are a little incendiary. That is the nature of a robust debate.
People will get offended. That's ok. This is not a "safe space," where everything has to be polite and genteel. We are adults exchanging ideas.

This -- the internet forum as a tool for discussion -- is a whole new model of the old New England town hall. The etiquette is still evolving, but there is no way we could have had a comparable nationwide back-and-forth 25 years ago.

It is kind of fun to be alive during a hinge-point in human affairs. Think what it was like when printed books first arrived, or the telephone.

[Huntindog]

profdant139 wrote:
TomG, I respectfully disagree with the idea that no one is going to be persuaded, one way or the other. I do agree that there is no way (in the absence of valid statistics) that we can conclude that one type of tire is superior to the other. But there are a few of us reading this thread (I am the OP) who are genuinely interested in informed comments about the reasoning that stands behind the behavior of the tire manufacturers.

A few folks with inside information (like Capri, for example) have shed new light on the topic. My own experience with attorneys representing US corporations led me to believe that the tire companies are trying to avoid product liability and thus recommend ST tires. But I have since learned that the trailer manufacturers are probably responsible for the demand for ST tires and that the tire manufacturers are just responding to that demand.

Which, of course, pushes back the inquiry a step. Why do trailer manufacturers recommend ST tires? Are there government regulations that require them to do so? Or government standards that recommend that they do so? Requirements and recommendations are technically not the same thing, but they are very similar, for all practical purposes. If a manufacturer were to ignore a federal recommendation, that refusal to comply with the standard would be admissible in a product defect suit.

You can see where this is going -- where do those government standards come from? From the regulated industries, of course. They hire lobbyists to shepherd the draft regulations through the administrative process.

Bottom line -- I still don't know the answer to my question. But it is worth thinking about, since there is so much riding on those tires (literally).

There is always the old fall back theory that the manufacturers want cheap.... Tons of examples of this in the industry other than tires. From undersized frames being spec'ed to units being under axled, to rinkey dink cabinentry, etc, the examples are endless.
That makes the fact that SOME of the higher end RV makers do use LT tires make sense. They tend to be the builders that do not cut corners in other areas as well.
Many RV builders have noticed that a poorly built unit that looks really nice at a low price will out sell units that uses better materials and methods. Those same companies tend to be the ones that do not cut corners in other areas as well.
IOW, the consumers really are the cause, as they flock to the lowest prices, without paying attention to the reasons for them.

Most consumers won't notice this on their first or second purchase. Generally only seasoned veterans of the sport so to speak have learned the difference and what to look for in a quality unit... And are willing to pay up for it

But I do think that it kind of goes hand in hand with the tire makers desire to not be the ones holding the bag. They have found that the bag can be VERY expensive. So why take a chance when you can avoid it,

[profdant139]

Excellent point, Tom! Which ten percent? I would say that when people (like Capri) say "I was in the industry, and here is the way it really works," that would be part of the ten percent. When someone says "I know how US corporations react to the threat of product liability," that would be part of the ten percent.

When someone (like me) says "I use ST and really like them," that is not part of the ten percent -- it's an isolated anecdote from a non-expert, entitled to little or no weight. Especially when the comment is off-point -- the issue is not whether ST or LT is better. The narrow issue is why the tire makers recommend ST for trailers.

I wish that someone who worked for NHTSA or the DOT would chime in. That would be part of the ten percent, too. Maybe even someone with one of the insurance companies --they must have databases that would be helpful.

[TomG2]

profdant139 wrote:
....snip.....
Bottom line -- I still don't know the answer to my question. But it is worth thinking about, since there is so much riding on those tires (literally).

Bottom line, I would suggest a more scholarly and scientific way to answer your question than throwing red meat to the members of this forum who are only going to say, "My way or the highway" when it comes to such issues. You may learn something from ten percent of the replies. But which ten percent?

[profdant139]

TomG, I respectfully disagree with the idea that no one is going to be persuaded, one way or the other. I do agree that there is no way (in the absence of valid statistics) that we can conclude that one type of tire is superior to the other. But there are a few of us reading this thread (I am the OP) who are genuinely interested in informed comments about the reasoning that stands behind the behavior of the tire manufacturers.

A few folks with inside information (like Capri, for example) have shed new light on the topic. My own experience with attorneys representing US corporations led me to believe that the tire companies are trying to avoid product liability and thus recommend ST tires. But I have since learned that the trailer manufacturers are probably responsible for the demand for ST tires and that the tire manufacturers are just responding to that demand.

Which, of course, pushes back the inquiry a step. Why do trailer manufacturers recommend ST tires? Are there government regulations that require them to do so? Or government standards that recommend that they do so? Requirements and recommendations are technically not the same thing, but they are very similar, for all practical purposes. If a manufacturer were to ignore a federal recommendation, that refusal to comply with the standard would be admissible in a product defect suit.

You can see where this is going -- where do those government standards come from? From the regulated industries, of course. They hire lobbyists to shepherd the draft regulations through the administrative process.

Bottom line -- I still don't know the answer to my question. But it is worth thinking about, since there is so much riding on those tires (literally).

[Steve_B_]

Last set I bought, I ordered ST, came marked LT, called the online distributor and they said they were the same thing.