Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[JPhelps]

The Cummins is a laggard in the HP race

Might be at this stage of the game, but the hp of the trucks from gm,f,d, kinda go in steps with one or the other being on a lower step until they leapfrog the others.
I also find this funny coming from a fanboi of the one manufacturer that has never had a production installed diesel in their pickup that can even stand up to the power level that a Cummins can produce.

[45Ricochet]

ib516 wrote:

NewsW wrote:

Flashman wrote:


The Dodge Cummins is looking better and better.

Don't give up yet.

If it is a problem isolated to the Bosch CP 4 pump, it is isolated.

The Cummins is a laggard in the HP race, and there is a lot of talk that the 6.7 6 will be replaced with a V8 in a few years.

At some point, they are also going to migrate to the CP 4.

There are few good options.

I think Martha Stewart knows more about Cummins diesels than you do; especially what the future holds for them and what they design and install in RAM trucks.

Having said that, when/if they (Cummins) redesign things, this issue will have been worked out - and all the Beta testers will have bought their trucks, had them fail, and had them fixed (out of pocket or otherwise).

Cummins deserves credit for sticking with proven technology (CP3), even if it means they are 0.8 seconds slower in the 1/4 mile pulling a 19,000# trailer.

I know if I were buying a new diesel today, I'd buy a RAM/Cummins. If you would have asked me a month or two ago, I would have said I'd shop all three. That isn't the case anymore. The Duramax would be my second choice.

I'll take a barely noticeable performance penalty over a $10,000, $12,000, or $18,000 repair bill any day.

I agree.
But your wrong about the Cummins IB. Ram is going to need more power thus they'll have to ditch the I6 banger by adding 2 more holes. You know just like the OTR tractors with the Cummins V8 :H :B :B
Sometimes being the slow kid pays off.

[ricatic]

hawkeye-08 wrote:
Ric, question for you.

If Ford had covered your repair under warranty, would you have jumped off the band wagon?

I know there are issues with the first dealer and how they handled it, but Ford could have changed their mind and covered it.

I have been asked this question before. The answer is not as simple as it may seem. Even when I was a huge fan of the 6.7 Ford, I lived through multiple problems with the engine. The fan clutch locked up at 3500 miles. It was back multiple times for phantom CEL's, a new fuel injector was needed at 24000 miles and the NOX sensor has failed twice. This has been the least reliable new truck I have ever owned.

The HPFP debacle was the final straw. If Ford would have stepped forward as GM has done, taken care of the deserved warranty repair, I would not have had the opportunity to learn all that I have about the limited life span of the Bosch CP4.x series pumps.The owners of these trucks would not know the depth of the problem or the extremely high cost of repairing not only the HPFP but all the other parts taken out by friendly fire. So the tempered answer is this. I was very aggravated that the truck had to be in the shop again. I was not as happy as I was at first. Had Ford fixed the truck, I would not have had any reason to take the road I have traveled. After the battle I had with Ford over the first crooked dealership, the damage had been done. I was treated so poorly that recovery would have been difficult.


I am starting to think that these pumps are generally right at the threshold, some are below the threshold and "don't last", but most are above the threshold and will survive the warranty period and beyond.. I am in the computer industry and we call it infant mortality rate (for example, there are a certain percentage of disks that will fail in the first several months of operation). This does not mean the disks are all bad, just that some failed... and as long as the percentages stay within the acceptable limits, life is good.

No need to start thinking that the pumps are "on the edge". Bosch has told us that 460 scar fuel is the performance minimum for their pumps. With 520 scar fuel in the US, owners are already into the engineering margin...or have exceeded it. The fact that we have not had an epidemic of failures tells me we are well into the margin but not past the total failure numbers.

Regards

[NewsW]

Just waiting until the CP 5 is introduced with 3,000 bar pressure... and the trouble down the road.

[ib516]

NewsW wrote:

Flashman wrote:


The Dodge Cummins is looking better and better.

Don't give up yet.

If it is a problem isolated to the Bosch CP 4 pump, it is isolated.

The Cummins is a laggard in the HP race, and there is a lot of talk that the 6.7 6 will be replaced with a V8 in a few years.

At some point, they are also going to migrate to the CP 4.

There are few good options.

I think Martha Stewart knows more about Cummins diesels than you do; especially what the future holds for them and what they design and install in RAM trucks.

Having said that, when/if they (Cummins) redesign things, this issue will have been worked out - and all the Beta testers will have bought their trucks, had them fail, and had them fixed (out of pocket or otherwise).

Cummins deserves credit for sticking with proven technology (CP3), even if it means they are 0.8 seconds slower in the 1/4 mile pulling a 19,000# trailer.

I know if I were buying a new diesel today, I'd buy a RAM/Cummins. If you would have asked me a month or two ago, I would have said I'd shop all three. That isn't the case anymore. The Duramax would be my second choice.

I'll take a barely noticeable performance penalty over a $10,000, $12,000, or $18,000 repair bill any day.

[Flashman]

NewsW wrote:

Flashman wrote:


The Dodge Cummins is looking better and better.

Don't give up yet.

If it is a problem isolated to the Bosch CP 4 pump, it is isolated.

The Cummins is a laggard in the HP race, and there is a lot of talk that the 6.7 6 will be replaced with a V8 in a few years.

At some point, they are also going to migrate to the CP 4.

There are few good options.

Yes a little less HP but great torque and no CP 4 - that makes a good option in my book - plus - wait for it - the only manual transmission in a heavy duty truck - for those of us that can still drive one.

[NewsW]

hawkeye-08 wrote:

I am starting to think that these pumps are generally right at the threshold, some are below the threshold and "don't last", but most are above the threshold and will survive the warranty period and beyond.. I am in the computer industry and we call it infant mortality rate (for example, there are a certain percentage of disks that will fail in the first several months of operation). This does not mean the disks are all bad, just that some failed... and as long as the percentages stay within the acceptable limits, life is good.

In the computer business, it is 90 days or 5+ years.

However, what bothers me is this is a failure that is well past the infant mortality period, where a manufacturing defect should have been caught.

Go to the TDI forum, and they are replacing pumps every 30,000 miles in the worse cases.

Something tells me it is something that sailed right past durability testing, QC for manufacturing, and all the normal through German Bosch checks.

Something they did not foresee.

That is what makes it interesting for me.

[NewsW]

Flashman wrote:


The Dodge Cummins is looking better and better.

Don't give up yet.

If it is a problem isolated to the Bosch CP 4 pump, it is isolated.

The Cummins is a laggard in the HP race, and there is a lot of talk that the 6.7 6 will be replaced with a V8 in a few years.

At some point, they are also going to migrate to the CP 4.

There are few good options.

[NewsW]

gmcsmoke wrote:

Regardless of whether GM replaces them under warranty or not you would be hearing about them and your not.

Stroll over the any duramax forum and HPFP barely returns 5 threads.

Therefore, since you see 5 threads on forums, you conclude that the data on HPFP failures submitted by General Motors Corporation under oath and the penalty of perjury, mail and wire fraud, are not material?

A simple calculation shows the failure rate to be roughly the same as Ford, adjusting for market share, units in service and time in service where possible.

[gmcsmoke]

durallymax wrote:

gmcsmoke wrote:

For once I'd love to see you back up the false info you spew; show me a case or cases of HPFP failing on Gm's.

I will try to sell everybody on the duramax everyday of the week as it is the best powertrain in my opinion, however I don't have blinders. Ill tell anybody straight up to not buy a diesel because it will never cash flow unless you do some serious towing. I also wont hide any problems they have. These pumps are failing on the Duramax engines as well. The reason you dont hear about it is because GM does the right thing and just fixes them. Does GM have as many failures? That I do not know.

Ever hear the saying good news doesn't make good news? Same holds true here. Not very many people get on the interwebby and complain about their pump failing if GM replaces it for them. The people that complain are when it isn't covered. Which is now why everybody you talk to seems to think ford will coid your warrenty if you hang a naked girl from your rearview mirror, and they think GM will fix anything on your vehicle "in good faith" no matter what. Two very out there conclusions but it shows in the publics eye GMs warranty looks good and Fords looks bad.



As for the guy worried about new diesels. They actually are running very very good compared to older years. Fords 6.7 is the best since their 7.3 and the LML duramax is flawless aside from this HPFP issue and the DEF sensor calibration.

This HPFP issue is common, but nothing on a large scale yet. Time will tell. Like I said earlier. Internet research is skewed. People like to complain more than they like to complement when they get on here. Not many start a thread to say thanks for replacing my pump or injectors , they start a thread to complain about them not being covered or failing in the first place. and nobody starts a thread to say "hey my truck has no problems".

Regardless of whether GM replaces them under warranty or not you would be hearing about them and your not.

Stroll over the any duramax forum and HPFP barely returns 5 threads.

[Flashman]

hawkeye-08 wrote:
Ric, question for you.

If Ford had covered your repair under warranty, would you have jumped off the band wagon?

I know there are issues with the first dealer and how they handled it, but Ford could have changed their mind and covered it.

I am starting to think that these pumps are generally right at the threshold, some are below the threshold and "don't last", but most are above the threshold and will survive the warranty period and beyond.. I am in the computer industry and we call it infant mortality rate (for example, there are a certain percentage of disks that will fail in the first several months of operation). This does not mean the disks are all bad, just that some failed... and as long as the percentages stay within the acceptable limits, life is good.

Except for those whose units fail??

Life is not so good.

[Flashman]

durallymax wrote:

Flashman wrote:
Well what a nasty mess - I chalk it up to the insane HP wars.

Even if GM is covering the cost - you still have the ruined vacation and down time.

As for Ford - I can't understand how the faithful still line up to buy their Diesels - "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."


The Dodge Cummins is looking better and better.

right, because turbos, injectors and egr are all cheap.....

What are you talking about?

[hawkeye-08]

Ric, question for you.

If Ford had covered your repair under warranty, would you have jumped off the band wagon?

I know there are issues with the first dealer and how they handled it, but Ford could have changed their mind and covered it.

I am starting to think that these pumps are generally right at the threshold, some are below the threshold and "don't last", but most are above the threshold and will survive the warranty period and beyond.. I am in the computer industry and we call it infant mortality rate (for example, there are a certain percentage of disks that will fail in the first several months of operation). This does not mean the disks are all bad, just that some failed... and as long as the percentages stay within the acceptable limits, life is good.

[durallymax]

Flashman wrote:
Well what a nasty mess - I chalk it up to the insane HP wars.

Even if GM is covering the cost - you still have the ruined vacation and down time.

As for Ford - I can't understand how the faithful still line up to buy their Diesels - "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."


The Dodge Cummins is looking better and better.

right, because turbos, injectors and egr are all cheap.....

[Flashman]

Well what a nasty mess - I chalk it up to the insane HP wars.

Even if GM is covering the cost - you still have the ruined vacation and down time.

As for Ford - I can't understand how the faithful still line up to buy their Diesels - "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."


The Dodge Cummins is looking better and better.