GCWR vs GVWR question

[drillagent]

I know the weight topic has been beat to death on this forum, but I may have just come to a realization and after searching, I can't find the answer to my question. The weight capacities of my TV and 5th wheel are below. So here it goes.

From what I've read here and what I've been told by Ford, the weight ratings are based on what the vehicle can STOP. So going by the ratings below, my truck can STOP a 5th wheel that weighs up to 15,200lbs. Everyone talks about the GVWR and the pin weight.

Is the pin weight subtracted from the trailer weight? The pin weight is 2175lbs of the 12,201lbs trailer weight, right? So the truck is carrying 2175lbs, and towing 10,026lbs? I guess the real question is, if the GCWR is below the 23,500lbs weight rating, but because of the pin weight, is above the 10,000lbs GVWR but below the 6,000lbs GAWR, am I actually considered overweight when it comes to STOPPING the vehicle? When it comes down to it, just because I may be below the 10,000lbs GVWR, I've still got another 10,000lbs of trailer to stop. And if you do the math, with an 18% pin weight (based on Keystone website calculations) of the 15,200lbs TV capacity, there is no way you can be under GVWR unless you have a 160lbs driver with no passenger. So, does the GVWR really matter when I'm towing a 5th wheel or just when I'm hauling a load of rock without a trailer?

I have a 2012 F250 Diesel. All weights are per 2012 Ford towing guide or actual scale weight.

Truck weight w/o passengers 7100
GVWR 10,000
Max 5th Wheel towing 15,200
GCWR 23,500
Rear Axle GAWR 6,000

Looking at purchasing 2010 Montana 3750FLF. All weights per Keystone website.
Dry weight 12201
Hitch weight 2175
Carry Capacity 3474

[rhagfo]

waltbennett wrote:
I've got to differ a little with D. Brakes are designed to stop the gross COMBINED vehicle weight. They'd be in serious legal difficulty if they posted that a truck could haul & tow that weight without being able to stop it. Might not stop it very fast though and that's why anything over 3k has to have brakes (think that's in all states, but not certain). I will add though that you'd be right at your maximum and a 3/4 ton truck is almost always just a beefed up 1/2 ton. While I've seen many of them towing large 5ers, I personally wouldn't do it - that's why I insisted on trading my old 3/4 in when LOML said she wanted a Monty. I towed a 27' TT with the old truck for four years and about 40,000 miles, and the difference is amazing. Our F350 dually towing our Monty is a whole different world, much more comfortable, stable and easier to drive.

Waltbennett, I really hate to correct you, but 99% of 3/4 ton (250/2500's) TV are just one tons (350/3500's)with softer springs up until Ram in 2013.
Part of the difference in towing comfort was the switch from TT to 5er, 5er's tow much easier than a TT.

Seattle Lion wrote:


This was my issue with my TT. The tow rating refers to the truck's ability to pull. The GVWR and axle ratings refer to what your truck can carry. My F350 can tow 15,500 and has a GVMWR of 11,500. We weighed our truck. It came out 8,400 lbs. with us in it. That leaves us 3,100 payload. Our 5er has a GCMWR of 15,500 and a calculated pin weight of 2,600 lbs at the GCMWR. Our rear axle RAMWR is 6,500 lbs. at least. Our rear axle weight is 3,100 lbs with us in the truck. So all our numbers work. Yours should too.

PLEASE read your VIN sticker and tell us what your axle ratings are and stop guessing!

[Seattle_Lion]

This was my issue with my TT. The tow rating refers to the truck's ability to pull. The GVWR and axle ratings refer to what your truck can carry. My F350 can tow 15,500 and has a GVMWR of 11,500. We weighed our truck. It came out 8,400 lbs. with us in it. That leaves us 3,100 payload. Our 5er has a GCMWR of 15,500 and a calculated pin weight of 2,600 lbs at the GCMWR. Our rear axle RAMWR is 6,500 lbs. at least. Our rear axle weight is 3,100 lbs with us in the truck. So all our numbers work. Yours should too.

[Wash_Guy]

I am about to purchase a fifth wheel that weighs 15500 lbs. I drive a F250 super duty deisel and would like to have an opinion from others as to wheather my truck will be overloaded or will it pull the trailer ok.
I would add the air bags for the rear also.

[mdamerell]

GVWR 10,000# - 8300# = 1700# pin weight or a small 8,500# 5er

or as some 3/4 ton truck owners seem to do, add air bags and go to rear axle rating.

GRAWR 6,000# - 3,380# = 2,620# or 13,000# 5er

Personally, I bought my 5er first and then the truck. When doing the math I was surprised how much truck was needed by the numbers and how the rating changed starting in 2005. While I'm under my GVWR by 800# I am at my 20,000# GCWR.

Good luck.

[drillagent]

Ok, so we finally purchased and installed the B&W Companion hitch. Today we took the F250 to the gas station with the CAT scales and weighed the truck with full tank of gas and myself and DW inside. Here are the results.

Steer Axle 4920
Drive Axle 3380
Total Weight 8300

Which tells me that no matter what I do, I can't tow a 5W without being over the GVWR. So what's the point of Ford publishing tow ratings that say I can tow a 15,200 5W? Now I'm just disappointed.

[Seattle_Lion]

rhagfo wrote:

MFL wrote:

Seattle Lion wrote:
I can see how all these numbers can appear confusing. We have a 2014 F350 SRW CC with a 11,500 lbs GVWR. We weighed the truck loaded (just two of us) and it came in at 8,400 lbs. That means we have a cargo capacity of 3,100 lbs. The RAGWR is 6,000 lbs. (tires are good for that). We just bought a Bighorn 5er that has a dry weight of 12,000 lbs (yes, we need that number) and a calculated tongue weight of 17%.

We load about 1,000 lbs on the trailer (it has a GVWR of 15,500 lbs and has 2 7,000 lbs axles). So the tongue weight of the trailer loaded is 2,210 lbs.

When we weighed the truck, the rear axle had 3,100 lbs on it. Add the 2,210 lbs for the trailer and 100 lbs for the hitch and we have 5,300 lbs on the rear axle and we have 700 lbs of RA load capacity left. Overall, we have 790 lbs of capacity left. Our dog weighs 80lbs and that is all we left off at the weigh station.

I am only running this example to show that it isn't all that hard to calculate whether or not your 5er is safe with your truck.

Seattle Lion, If your F350 has the 11,500 GVWR, the rear axle should be rated higher than 6,000#s. Even the tires it came with, should be rated for well over 3,000#s each.

It is your truck, and you should know, but I think you may have more capacity than you realize.

Happy travels,
Jerry

X2

My 2001 Ram 2500 has total axle ratings of 11,284#, so could have a GVWR MAX of 11,284# that is with a 5,200# front and a 6,084 rear.
Seattle Lion you need to look at your VIN sticker again for your axle ratings, the rear should be in the 7,000# range.

That would be good news, but it wouldn't change anything. I have well over 5,000 lbs on the front axle (diesel) so even if I have 7,000 on the rear, my total capacity is still the same. Even if I go up to the full 15,500 GVWR of the trailer, I am still ok with the truck.

Regardless of how much more RAGWR I have, the truck itself only has 3,100 lbs payload with us and our stuff in it.

I did a little "test" last Friday. We needed gravel for our drive, so I got 2,500 lbs of gravel. I figured that would show me what happens with the rear axle loaded up past where the FW will bring it 2,300lbs). I was very happy to see that the truck barely sank at all in the back. Handling was just fine as was braking. I think Ford has been conservative in their ratings. I like that.

[rhagfo]

MFL wrote:

Seattle Lion wrote:
I can see how all these numbers can appear confusing. We have a 2014 F350 SRW CC with a 11,500 lbs GVWR. We weighed the truck loaded (just two of us) and it came in at 8,400 lbs. That means we have a cargo capacity of 3,100 lbs. The RAGWR is 6,000 lbs. (tires are good for that). We just bought a Bighorn 5er that has a dry weight of 12,000 lbs (yes, we need that number) and a calculated tongue weight of 17%.

We load about 1,000 lbs on the trailer (it has a GVWR of 15,500 lbs and has 2 7,000 lbs axles). So the tongue weight of the trailer loaded is 2,210 lbs.

When we weighed the truck, the rear axle had 3,100 lbs on it. Add the 2,210 lbs for the trailer and 100 lbs for the hitch and we have 5,300 lbs on the rear axle and we have 700 lbs of RA load capacity left. Overall, we have 790 lbs of capacity left. Our dog weighs 80lbs and that is all we left off at the weigh station.

I am only running this example to show that it isn't all that hard to calculate whether or not your 5er is safe with your truck.

Seattle Lion, If your F350 has the 11,500 GVWR, the rear axle should be rated higher than 6,000#s. Even the tires it came with, should be rated for well over 3,000#s each.

It is your truck, and you should know, but I think you may have more capacity than you realize.

Happy travels,
Jerry

X2

My 2001 Ram 2500 has total axle ratings of 11,284#, so could have a GVWR MAX of 11,284# that is with a 5,200# front and a 6,084 rear.
Seattle Lion you need to look at your VIN sticker again for your axle ratings, the rear should be in the 7,000# range.

[MFL]

Seattle Lion wrote:
I can see how all these numbers can appear confusing. We have a 2014 F350 SRW CC with a 11,500 lbs GVWR. We weighed the truck loaded (just two of us) and it came in at 8,400 lbs. That means we have a cargo capacity of 3,100 lbs. The RAGWR is 6,000 lbs. (tires are good for that). We just bought a Bighorn 5er that has a dry weight of 12,000 lbs (yes, we need that number) and a calculated tongue weight of 17%.

We load about 1,000 lbs on the trailer (it has a GVWR of 15,500 lbs and has 2 7,000 lbs axles). So the tongue weight of the trailer loaded is 2,210 lbs.

When we weighed the truck, the rear axle had 3,100 lbs on it. Add the 2,210 lbs for the trailer and 100 lbs for the hitch and we have 5,300 lbs on the rear axle and we have 700 lbs of RA load capacity left. Overall, we have 790 lbs of capacity left. Our dog weighs 80lbs and that is all we left off at the weigh station.

I am only running this example to show that it isn't all that hard to calculate whether or not your 5er is safe with your truck.

Seattle Lion, If your F350 has the 11,500 GVWR, the rear axle should be rated higher than 6,000#s. Even the tires it came with, should be rated for well over 3,000#s each.

It is your truck, and you should know, but I think you may have more capacity than you realize.

Happy travels,
Jerry

[NC_Hauler]

AS stated, it's really not rocket science,just simple addition and subtraction. I weighed my truck ready to go camping.....everything full, all parties in and it weighs 9420#...Rear axle had 3860 on it, front axle had 5280 (rated at 6,000#) my pin weight is 3300#, add the 3300# pin weight and the 9420# gives total truck weight of 12,720#, which is 1,280# under my trucks GVWR, ( don't have to worry at this time about RAWR, because again, I'm under trucks GVWR)...rear axle weight was 3860# plus the 3300# of the pin weight, puts me 7190# rear drive axle, which puts me 2560# under my RAWR...Total of truck and 5er together is 9420 plus 5er, which weighs 16,150#, for a total of 25,570#, which is well below my trucks GCWR of 37,600#....So I don't need tires that will handle more axle weight, though my axles will handle 11,400#, from what I've researched....so if I ever need it, I will use Chris's suggestions, which are very good.

simple math and a little common sense can help one easily match a tow vehicle with whatever it is theyr'e going to tow without having to buy "extra stuff" to make it work...

[Seattle_Lion]

I can see how all these numbers can appear confusing. We have a 2014 F350 SRW CC with a 11,500 lbs GVWR. We weighed the truck loaded (just two of us) and it came in at 8,400 lbs. That means we have a cargo capacity of 3,100 lbs. The RAGWR is 6,000 lbs. (tires are good for that). We just bought a Bighorn 5er that has a dry weight of 12,000 lbs (yes, we need that number) and a calculated tongue weight of 17%.

We load about 1,000 lbs on the trailer (it has a GVWR of 15,500 lbs and has 2 7,000 lbs axles). So the tongue weight of the trailer loaded is 2,210 lbs.

When we weighed the truck, the rear axle had 3,100 lbs on it. Add the 2,210 lbs for the trailer and 100 lbs for the hitch and we have 5,300 lbs on the rear axle and we have 700 lbs of RA load capacity left. Overall, we have 790 lbs of capacity left. Our dog weighs 80lbs and that is all we left off at the weigh station.

I am only running this example to show that it isn't all that hard to calculate whether or not your 5er is safe with your truck.

[Old-Biscuit]

Me Again wrote:

Old-Biscuit wrote:

NC Hauler wrote:
OB, you know what happens when you start tossing out facts:)

So is that 500 or 600 pounds per inches of tire width?

Maybe you could explain how you think a pickup truck will exceed the Federal Bridge Weight Laws!

What the officers are looking at in the picture (Log trailer) is allowed 38,000 pounds on those two axles with eight tires, right?

Chris

WOW lot of reading into the image.

It's a photo of the 'weight police'....sarcasm :S

[mdamerell]

Me Again wrote:

Old-Biscuit wrote:

NC Hauler wrote:
OB, you know what happens when you start tossing out facts:)

So is that 500 or 600 pounds per inches of tire width?

Maybe you could explain how you think a pickup truck will exceed the Federal Bridge Weight Laws!

What the officers are looking at in the picture (Log trailer) is allowed 38,000 pounds on those two axles with eight tires, right?

Chris

Tandem axle is 34,000#, 20,000# for a single axle, Steer axle depends on axle rating and tires 12,000# to 20,000#. Spread axle (>8')is 40,000#.

Pickup won't, but just because it won't exceed the "bridge law" does not mean it's the right thing to do. The manufacture's limits while they appear mystical at times are based in reality somewhere. My semi has 40,000# rears even though the limit is 34,000# because they last longer when not pushed to their limits.

Be safe and see ya down the road. 🙂

[DW-gray]

Wow. Look at all the number crunching. Keep it simple. Consider this: Before You Buy That RV, Truck or Other Tow Vehicle.

[wilber1]

What bugs me about most 5ers these days is how close the manufacturers run to the max axle ratings. They rely on at least an 18% pin weight to be legal when it comes to axles and brakes. There is no excess capability at all if the trailer is maxed out to its GVWR.

[Me_Again]

Old-Biscuit wrote:

NC Hauler wrote:
OB, you know what happens when you start tossing out facts:)

So is that 500 or 600 pounds per inches of tire width?

Maybe you could explain how you think a pickup truck will exceed the Federal Bridge Weight Laws!

What the officers are looking at in the picture (Log trailer) is allowed 34,000 pounds(On edit, I knew it was less than 2x a single axle, just slipped a tooth) on those two axles with eight tires, right?

Chris