New 5th Wheel & New Truck - Running nose high - UGH!!

[Herzog]

We recently purchased a 2016 Hideout 5th wheel (30 feet and 8000 pounds). Last summer I bought a 2016 Ram 2500 4x4 gas truck. We love both but when I hitched up to bring the RV home, it was running about 4-5 inches nose high.

I can't flip the axles as they came from the factory under the springs, and I have the pin box as high as it will go. There is about 6-7 inches of distance between the top of the bed rails and the bottom of the RV....seems good to go there.

The only recommendations I got from the dealer to raise the trailer were:
1. Build a box frame and put it between the trailer and the axles
2. Let it go and all should be ok.

I guess I should have received better advice for a $30,000+ investment...ugh

I don't want to add a box frame as it doesn;t sound very safe and the RV sits high enough as it is.

So, if I just "let it ride high", I assume I have more wear on the rear tires than on the front, but will it cause any other problems??

We only towed it about 40 miles to get it home but it seemed solid without any sway, but there was some chucking.

Any advice would sure be appreciated....I really think it is unreasonable that the newer trucks stand so darn high to begin with!

[garyp4951]

tinner12002 wrote:
I also have the trailerblocks on my toy hauler but I would recommend getting the top tie plates elsewhere as the ones they use are for 2" wide springs and they use them for 1.75" springs also which when tightened down they will bend. U-bolts are ok as they upgrade to larger size/diameter. If you go this way and need a place to get U-bolts and top tie plates you can PM me and I'll get you the link. I purchased complete set from them, then when tie plates bent I scraped the U-bolts and tie plates and sourced them elsewhere with great results.

I agree the billet trailer blocks and ubolts from the place in Canada are very high quality, but when torquing them down it will bend bend the stock tie plates, and cause the ubolts to bend.
Mine did that and I'm getting some plates and ubolts from Rough Stuff Specialties.

[tinner12002]

rhagfo wrote:

tinner12002 wrote:

JIMNLIN wrote:

Thanks Dinwitti....I went to trailerblocks.com and it seems to be the best solution so far. Guys lift trucks with rear axle blocks all the time with no issues, so why wouldn't it work for an RV????

I never heard of this place before but I will be contacting them soon....

From what I can rough calculate, if I put 2" blocks over the axles, the back bumper should come up about 3-4 inches...almost level!! thanks again.

As mentioned adding suspension to a trailers std leaf spring isn't the best or safest idea. In fact Dexter doesn't recommend the practice in a email to me.

Adding blocks to a truck rear axle is no big deal as the rear tires simply roll around corners unlike a trailer with close spaced axles in the center of a heavy tall box. Trailer tires actually side slip (side scrub) while backing or going forward aroma a corner. This add tremendous stress to the trailers suspension parts.
Now add a tall block with much longer U bolts and stress is multiplied on the U bolt/top plate and spring keepers.

For a heavy trailer the sub frame method is the safest and much easier on suspension parts

You don't think a powered rear truck axle has no stress as they just roll around...you must have a front wheel drive truck then! That rear axle is under power at all times during cornering and acceleration how do you feel its just back there rolling around, its under stress at all times the truck is in motion! They still use block under springs on the rear axles to this day and if installed properly there won't be any issues but if their not installed correctly then yes its not a good idea to do it. Even with your sub frame addition, if its not done correctly its not safe. I totally disagree with the notion that an rv axle has more stress on it as does a rear axle on a truck. The only time the axle on an rv has stress is when turning, trucks are under powered stress all the time. I understand the spring manufacturer not recommending using blocks as well as possibly the frame manufacturer not recommend welding a sub frame to their frame. I would put blocks in all day long on my RVs and not be afraid of them at all but I wouldn't do it to someone else's RV because of the liability involved, nor would I do a sub frame setup for the same reason even though I was a certified welder, I still say its safe if done properly.

Well strongly disagree, yes the live drive axle has stress, but in a in a straightforward direction. Tandem trailer axles get a lot of side force when turning it is this twisting that blocks and longer U bolts need to endure without twisting or breaking.

I guess you have never accelerated going through a turn, from a dead stop, driven a curvy road at 60-70mph or done a donut...none of which are done with a trailer, not saying that trailer axles have no stress, but if it could be tested I bet you'd be surprised at the difference. Under acceleration that car axle is trying to separate itself from the springs and when going around a curve in your ford, ram or chevy truck, some of which use blocks, if you had one with a 4000lb pin weight and 900ft lbs of engine torque, you don't think there're extreme stresses going on with the rear axle?? Just saying that the auto rear axle has a lot more stress there than just back there rolling along.

[Blazing_Zippers]

WITH RESPECT,
When one cranks a 5th wheel/travel trailer in a tight turn, the axles and tires are close together and do get out of line, sometimes 2 to 3 inches. An immense amount of torque is applied and could bend shackles and damage tires.
The same effect happens on class 8 semi's, heavy large water tenders, and fire trucks. Especially when backing up. Fifth wheel trailers can really be turned sharply and if one would stop during the sharp turn and get out and look, one would be surprised.
I chose the sub frame route. It seems to be the stoutest remedy for the trailer lift, IMHO. What someone else chooses, is their choice.
As far as owning a 4WD, we needed ours the past few days here in North Idaho. I do remember seeing a 2WD here last summer, but it was from SoCal. Heh Heh!
We'll see ya out there

[rhagfo]

tinner12002 wrote:

JIMNLIN wrote:

Thanks Dinwitti....I went to trailerblocks.com and it seems to be the best solution so far. Guys lift trucks with rear axle blocks all the time with no issues, so why wouldn't it work for an RV????

I never heard of this place before but I will be contacting them soon....

From what I can rough calculate, if I put 2" blocks over the axles, the back bumper should come up about 3-4 inches...almost level!! thanks again.

As mentioned adding suspension to a trailers std leaf spring isn't the best or safest idea. In fact Dexter doesn't recommend the practice in a email to me.

Adding blocks to a truck rear axle is no big deal as the rear tires simply roll around corners unlike a trailer with close spaced axles in the center of a heavy tall box. Trailer tires actually side slip (side scrub) while backing or going forward aroma a corner. This add tremendous stress to the trailers suspension parts.
Now add a tall block with much longer U bolts and stress is multiplied on the U bolt/top plate and spring keepers.

For a heavy trailer the sub frame method is the safest and much easier on suspension parts

You don't think a powered rear truck axle has no stress as they just roll around...you must have a front wheel drive truck then! That rear axle is under power at all times during cornering and acceleration how do you feel its just back there rolling around, its under stress at all times the truck is in motion! They still use block under springs on the rear axles to this day and if installed properly there won't be any issues but if their not installed correctly then yes its not a good idea to do it. Even with your sub frame addition, if its not done correctly its not safe. I totally disagree with the notion that an rv axle has more stress on it as does a rear axle on a truck. The only time the axle on an rv has stress is when turning, trucks are under powered stress all the time. I understand the spring manufacturer not recommending using blocks as well as possibly the frame manufacturer not recommend welding a sub frame to their frame. I would put blocks in all day long on my RVs and not be afraid of them at all but I wouldn't do it to someone else's RV because of the liability involved, nor would I do a sub frame setup for the same reason even though I was a certified welder, I still say its safe if done properly.

Well strongly disagree, yes the live drive axle has stress, but in a in a straightforward direction. Tandem trailer axles get a lot of side force when turning it is this twisting that blocks and longer U bolts need to endure without twisting or breaking.

[tinner12002]

I also have the trailerblocks on my toy hauler but I would recommend getting the top tie plates elsewhere as the ones they use are for 2" wide springs and they use them for 1.75" springs also which when tightened down they will bend. U-bolts are ok as they upgrade to larger size/diameter. If you go this way and need a place to get U-bolts and top tie plates you can PM me and I'll get you the link. I purchased complete set from them, then when tie plates bent I scraped the U-bolts and tie plates and sourced them elsewhere with great results.

[tinner12002]

JIMNLIN wrote:

Thanks Dinwitti....I went to trailerblocks.com and it seems to be the best solution so far. Guys lift trucks with rear axle blocks all the time with no issues, so why wouldn't it work for an RV????

I never heard of this place before but I will be contacting them soon....

From what I can rough calculate, if I put 2" blocks over the axles, the back bumper should come up about 3-4 inches...almost level!! thanks again.

As mentioned adding suspension to a trailers std leaf spring isn't the best or safest idea. In fact Dexter doesn't recommend the practice in a email to me.

Adding blocks to a truck rear axle is no big deal as the rear tires simply roll around corners unlike a trailer with close spaced axles in the center of a heavy tall box. Trailer tires actually side slip (side scrub) while backing or going forward around a corner. This add tremendous stress to the trailers suspension parts.
Now add a tall block with much longer U bolts and stress is multiplied on the U bolt/top plate and spring keepers.

For a heavy trailer the sub frame method is the safest and much easier on suspension parts

You don't think a powered rear truck axle has no stress as they just roll around...you must have a front wheel drive truck then! That rear axle is under power at all times during cornering and acceleration how do you feel its just back there rolling around, its under stress at all times the truck is in motion! They still use block under springs on the rear axles to this day and if installed properly there won't be any issues but if their not installed correctly then yes its not a good idea to do it. Even with your sub frame addition, if its not done correctly its not safe. I totally disagree with the notion that an rv axle has more stress on it as does a rear axle on a truck. The only time the axle on an rv has stress is when turning, trucks are under powered stress all the time. I understand the spring manufacturer not recommending using blocks as well as possibly the frame manufacturer not recommend welding a sub frame to their frame. I would put blocks in all day long on my RVs and not be afraid of them at all but I wouldn't do it to someone else's RV because of the liability involved, nor would I do a sub frame setup for the same reason even though I was a certified welder, I still say its safe if done properly.

[tinner12002]

jimmyfred wrote:
..........WHY , can't you simply purchase some of those blocks\inserts they use on the rear axles of 3/4 , 1 ton trucks and get longer Ubolts and add them to the suspension ? , jf

That's what I've done on both my 5vers. Installed 2" blocks under the springs raising the 5vers up just as we used to do, and still do on our trucks when putting a lift kit in. I do recommend that if you do that you also upgrade to heavier/thicker U-bolts. I think I had under $150 in my setup for a tandem axle hauler.

[bbaker2001]

My used 5th had the sub frame already on it, and it rides fine. Does sit a little higher from ground, but no problems.
also they had put on bigger tires.

[rhagfo]

rhagfo wrote:
The box sub frame is done all the time.
First you really need to know exactly how much you need to raise the 5er at the axles.
The best way I know of to do this is pretty easy.
1. Find a level place to do the measuring.
2. With 5er loaded as it would be to travel, and connected to the TV, then measure the height to the top of the bed rail from the ground at the pin. Call this measurement1.
3. Drop the 5er in that spot and level front to rear. Now measure at the pin the the distance to from the bottom of the overhang to the ground. Call this measurement2.

Now time for the math (measurment1 + 6") - measurement2 = amount of lift need at axles to be level. The 6" is the distance between bed rail and 5er overhang.

To Hertzog The OP!
Have you done this step yet? This is the only way you really know how much lift you need at the axles, all the rest is guess work.

[retispcsi]

Give Mor Ryde in Elkhart Ind. a call and see if they have a suggestion or two. They are the experts in trailer suspension. I have had work done there twice.

[JIMNLIN]

Thanks Dinwitti....I went to trailerblocks.com and it seems to be the best solution so far. Guys lift trucks with rear axle blocks all the time with no issues, so why wouldn't it work for an RV????

I never heard of this place before but I will be contacting them soon....

From what I can rough calculate, if I put 2" blocks over the axles, the back bumper should come up about 3-4 inches...almost level!! thanks again.

As mentioned adding suspension to a trailers std leaf spring isn't the best or safest idea. In fact Dexter doesn't recommend the practice in a email to me.

Adding blocks to a truck rear axle is no big deal as the rear tires simply roll around corners unlike a trailer with close spaced axles in the center of a heavy tall box. Trailer tires actually side slip (side scrub) while backing or going forward around a corner. This add tremendous stress to the trailers suspension parts.
Now add a tall block with much longer U bolts and stress is multiplied on the U bolt/top plate and spring keepers.

For a heavy trailer the sub frame method is the safest and much easier on suspension parts

[Herzog]

garyp4951 wrote:
I would never lower the stock suspension of a new truck, and would just install a subframe on the rv.

I certainly agree....the vehicle design engineers know a lot more about driving/towing/hauling that I do....

Having said that, I think I am going to use blocks between the axles and the springs on the 5th wheel....I thinks it's the easiest and safest way to raise the darn thing....

[garyp4951]

I would never lower the stock suspension of a new truck, and would just install a subframe on the rv.

[TURNKEY]

I've got the same problem soon to be made worse. I have a very small rig and it still makes a huge difference to tow off level.
I tow a 23' 6500# fiver that rides about 1.5" high behind my 2006 GMC 1500HD. I want to get a newer 3/4 ton but they are all so high! My trailer axles were flipped when I got the trailer and the rise already requires me to use a folding step to reach my trailer steps. Any higher and I'll have to buy a new three step trailer step.
With only the slight tilt I have the rear axles have about 400# pounds more load than the front. This results in slightly higher tire temps when towing and a noticeable increase to rear axle tire wear.
The only solution I can think of when I switch to a taller truck is to LOWER the truck!