Sorry...another tow vehicle capacity thread

[Phydeauxman]

Lets just get this out of the way up front. I am a newbie to camping that made an uninformed purchase of too much 5th wheel for the truck I have. I already own the camper and the truck so no going back on those decisions...now just trying to understand what the real potential consequences are.

My truck...2014 Ford F250 CC 4x4 SWB with the 6.7 Diesel...paid for. I have an automatic sliding hitch, have added Air Lift air bags to the truck as well as a BakFlip bed cover. I recently weighed the truck with just myself and about 6 gallons of diesel...the weight was 8320 lbs., the truck has a GVWR of 10000 lbs. leaving me with a payload capacity of 1680 lbs. I would say that my wife and kids add another 430 lbs., we carry about another 50 pounds of stuff in the cab with us, and then filling the 24 gallon tank would add another 130 lbs. Subtracting all of that...we are left with a payload capacity of about 1070 lbs.

My camper...2015 Grand Design Reflection 323BHS. The GVWR is 13995 lbs., the dry weight is 10780 lbs., and the hitch weight is 1980 lbs.

Based on my calculations for my truck...it appears we are over the GVWR of the truck by 910 lbs. When looking at other 5th wheels offered by Grand Design...my truck could not tow any of them and be within the GVWR of the truck. I am not sure if any manufacturer makes a 5th wheel with a hitch weight that will fit into the 1070 lb. capacity I have left.

When I bought the truck, I had no idea I would be going the camper route. I bought it to tow my aluminum car trailer and classic Mustang. A year later...the wife wants to start going camping...and the 5th wheel was my idea of roughing it. Being an impulse buyer that I am (I know how bad this is so no need to rub it in), we went and looked at a few models and bought the one that met our needs/desires. Of course, the dealer said towing it with the truck I had was going to be no problem. And it has not been any problem at all. We have not gone real far mind you but it tows like a dream and with the air bags pumped up to 65 lbs...truck sits perfectly level.

I know I am not alone out there as far as towing more 5ver than the truck is rated for...I think the most popular combo I see on the road is SRW truck with 5ver behind. And even if some of those are 350s/3500s...the GVWR capacity of those trucks isn't different from the 250s/2500s.

Since I can't un-buy the truck or the camper (especially the camper)...I am trying to find out what the real potential consequences are from continuing to tow with the truck I have. I know it is not the limitations of the engine/transmission because they put the same engine/transmission in the 350s and 450s. Is it the brakes not being able to appropriately stop the vehicle? To make matters worse...I had plan to replace the stock/original fuel tank with a tank that basically doubles the capacity...so I don't have to stop every 250 miles for fuel. Doing this would add another 180 lbs. on top of the weight I detailed above.

[avvidclif1]

ramgunner wrote:

Phydeauxman wrote:
I am trying to find out what the real potential consequences are from continuing to tow with the truck I have.

Wear and tear on components that were not designed to take it.

If you get into an accident, especially an injury accident, then LE and your insurance company, the other parties insurance company, and their attorneys may and will look at everything. If you are over your rated weights, then it could lead to civil and/or criminal charges involving the term "negligence". That means that someone knew better and did something anyway that endangered, injured, or killed someone or caused damage. Civilly it can mean a loss of a lot of money. Criminally it can mean a loss of a lot of money and/or freedom.

Cite me one instance where an RV owner was sued for being overloaded, much less criminal charges, accident or not. I've been asking this question for several years and have yet to get a response.

EVERYONE wants to repeat the rumor but no-one has backed it up with facts.

I'm listening??????

[AH64ID]

Wildwilly101 wrote:
So then there is never a reason to purchase a 3500 truck? This is the type of advice that gets people into trouble. I wanted to believe that too since the 08 2500 and 3500 both shared the same front axle, all I needed to do was beef up the rear. The air bags allowed it to set level, but did not provide enough stiffness to manage the dynamic load experienced on the highway. Implying that I don’t know what I’m talking about is ludicrous since you did not experience my circumstance, and are suggesting running an overloaded truck is safe and prudent as long as you put on air bags. No I do not trust you or anything you claim, Trusting people’s claims is what caused this near disaster in the first place. Yes I knew better but didn’t want to spend the bucks on a new truck so I had to find out for myself. There are limits to what air bags can do in a dynamic loading situation as experienced at highway speeds. Suggesting the rear suspension on my 08 is the same as the one on my 3500 discredits everything you claim. A blind man can see the difference. Enough said

I never once said to run overload.. go back and read it again!!! I stated that the sticker ratings were underrated. There is a BIG difference, surely you can understand that.

Your truck shared more than the front axle with a DRW of the same year. The Frame, front suspension, brakes, steering, and rear axle are all the same and rated the same. The difference, aside from DRW vs SRW, was rear suspension. As I stated above the DRW main leaf pack is a mere 7% stiffer than the 2500 main leaf pack. It looks a lot more but it isn't. The 4/1 vs 3/1 pack has a big effect on that. The DRW's do have overloads that come into play around 6,500# on the rear axle. That takes ± 3,500lbs of pin weight, which is more than you claim you have.

Let's say you have 7,000lbs on the rear axle and the DRW overloads have compressed 1". You don't even need 50 psi in the airbags to have the same support.

You don't have to believe me but I suggest you do the research yourself before you make more false statements. The information is out there if you spend the time looking, and it's really not that hard to find.

The 2015 air suspension is a perfect example of how what I am telling you is correct. It has weaker main leafs than your 2008 did and airbags... like I said rated at 9,750# RAWR and up to a 37,500# GCWR... Tell the Ram engineers that airbags cannot handle it in a dynamic load!!! Believe what you want to believe, but at least consider at the facts before you make your opinion. Facts should effect opinions, not the other way around.

Now you have spent the bucks on a new truck, so enjoy it!!! Just don't put false information out there to justify your purchase.

There are lots of reasons to get a DRW, but the main reason you claim you did (the rear suspension) was not one of them.

It is possible most of your issue was the tire choice, and not the suspension. Even a 3,750# LRE rated tire is going to have a LOT more flex and give than a pair of 3042# LRE tires. I have ran with LRE tires near their max rating and it indues a lot of movement into the truck and is one of the reasons I now run LRG tires.

IDman wrote:
Let us know when you will be hitched up and traveling because I don't want to be anywhere in front of you when you try to stop!

Just because "others do it" doesn't mean it is safe, legal, or right!

That could be the most useless comment of the thread for a couple of reasons.

Mostly because no pickup is designed to STOP the trailer.. the trailer brakes stop the trailer!!!

Even the biggest and baddest pickup is only rated for 2,000lbs of trailer without brakes.

[Wildwilly101]

So then there is never a reason to purchase a 3500 truck? This is the type of advice that gets people into trouble. I wanted to believe that too since the 08 2500 and 3500 both shared the same front axle, all I needed to do was beef up the rear. The air bags allowed it to set level, but did not provide enough stiffness to manage the dynamic load experienced on the highway. Implying that I don’t know what I’m talking about is ludicrous since you did not experience my circumstance, and are suggesting running an overloaded truck is safe and prudent as long as you put on air bags. No I do not trust you or anything you claim, Trusting people’s claims is what caused this near disaster in the first place. Yes I knew better but didn’t want to spend the bucks on a new truck so I had to find out for myself. There are limits to what air bags can do in a dynamic loading situation as experienced at highway speeds. Suggesting the rear suspension on my 08 is the same as the one on my 3500 discredits everything you claim. A blind man can see the difference. Enough said

[IDman]

Let us know when you will be hitched up and traveling because I don't want to be anywhere in front of you when you try to stop!

Just because "others do it" doesn't mean it is safe, legal, or right!

[AH64ID]

Wildwilly101 wrote:
Really? New truck is rated 14K GVW old truck 9K gvw. Enormous spring packs compared to very small spring packs. Not even close. Payload rating of 6K compared to payload rating of 2K. Loading of unit was fine, truck suspension simply couldn't handle the weight. No other factors involved. I was well beyond reasonable design parameters.

Yes really, you are apparently not aware of design parameters.

Your ratings on the 08 where limited on paper for marketing purposes, the actual design spec was much higher.

Based purely on the spring rating the 2500 spring pack with airbags will hold more weight than your new DRW and will be more stable with the anti-sway bar and airbags. Again numbers don't lie. The difference in the main leafs is 7%, and the overloads are rated less than the airbags. The modified 2500 had a more stout suspension, end of story.

Think about the air suspension on the 3500's. They have a smaller leaf pack, rated lower than your 2500 pack, and air bags.. You had that plus a anti-sway bar. The new air suspension is rated at 9,750lbs!!! You can't hardly find SRW wheels rated for that (I think the Ricksons might be, but the Visions aren't). You had plenty of suspension.

The frame on your 2500 was the same as the DRW, which could carry a max of 14,550 with fully loaded axles. While the new one can go higher it's not needed for that trailer. With a SRW if you are within your limits on tires the truck is within design spec, enough said...

You ended up with a better truck for that trailer, no doubt, but your statement about the differences was wrong. The biggest benefits to the new truck are the training wheels and eng/trans upgrades. The front suspension is also better, but nearly every lb of the 5er is on the rear axle.

[Wildwilly101]

Really? New truck is rated 14K GVW old truck 9K gvw. Enormous spring packs compared to very small spring packs. Not even close. Payload rating of 6K compared to payload rating of 2K. Loading of unit was fine, truck suspension simply couldn't handle the weight. No other factors involved. I was well beyond reasonable design parameters.

[AH64ID]

Wildwilly101 wrote:
I forgot to add, new Bilstiens too. Loading was fine, truck was way too light for the job. See sawing was caused by too much pin weight for the truck suspension, not bad shocks and too little pin weight. I was foolish enough to follow people’s advice who claim that simply “beefing up” your truck will be fine, just go camping and enjoy. There are physical limits to the ability of a truck based on design parameters. Some beefing up may very well work in some situations. Mine was not one of those situations. As I said before, I should have known better, but had to find out for myself.

You are correct about design parameters, wrong about what they are. Like I said your modified suspension on the 2500 is better than a stock DRW suspension.

I know the spring rates between the two trucks trust me... There was something else wrong with your setup.

Since you traded it you will probably never know, but nothing you have posted about thesuspension would cause that issue.

Unless your new truck has air suspension the difference is much smaller than you think, until you get over 6,500 on the rear axle. Numbers and spring rates don't lie.

Your also contradicting yourself. Was the loading correct, or was there too little pin weight? You can't have both.

[Wildwilly101]

I forgot to add, new Bilstiens too. Loading was fine, truck was way too light for the job. See sawing was caused by too much pin weight for the truck suspension, not bad shocks and too little pin weight. I was foolish enough to follow people’s advice who claim that simply “beefing up” your truck will be fine, just go camping and enjoy. There are physical limits to the ability of a truck based on design parameters. Some beefing up may very well work in some situations. Mine was not one of those situations. As I said before, I should have known better, but had to find out for myself.

Edit: there is a huge difference in the suspension on my new truck compared to the old one, not even close.

[wandering1]

Golden_HVAC wrote:
Hi,

The engine, transmission, brakes and probably the rims are the same as a 2014 F-350. The SRW F-350 came with a 11,400 GVWR, and 18" rims rated for slightly more weight than the factory standard 17" rims on a F-250.

That said, you might have the upgraded 18" rims already, or might have some 20" or other silly size rims. Changing to the 18" rims will not increase your GVWR any, but if your rear axle or tires are overloaded when towing, it might help prevent tire failure.

You really need to go back to the scale with full tank of fuel and the fifth wheel. Check the front and rear axle weights. You might be surprised that the fifth wheel is a lot more weight that you expected. Many times the 'estimated pin' weight is just that, a lie. So you might be anywhere from 700 - 1,500 pounds over the GVWR.

That said, I know someone who did the same thing back in 1983 and bought a LTD wagon thinking of towing a camping trailer, only to get home with the car and find out it's tow rating was only 1,000 pounds. Then he bought a F-150 still thinking of towing a travel trailer, and did not like any of those layouts, bought a 24' Wilderness fifth wheel, and towed that home. I have no clue how much weight was on his truck, or it's rating with the 175 HP 351" engine. Eventually he traded up for a dually F-350 with 460" engine rated around 225 HP.

So it is not nearly as unsafe as you might expect it to be when you state 'I am overloaded by 1,000 pounds'.

You should be well under your rear axle weight rating, and probably are under the tire weight ratings too.

Good luck,

Fred.

F350 brake pads are larger than the F250 brake pads unless you got the optional camper/towing package. F350 brakes and suspension come with the option on the F250. If you didnt get the option then you have the smaller F250 brakes and lighter F250 suspension.

[rhagfo]

Wildwilly101 wrote:
I tried the same thing with my 08 Ram 2500 long bed. Installed firestone ride rites, Helwig stabilizer, upgraded tires to 3,750lb rated, and hitched up the new 5er (upgraded from a 28ft bumper pull) 2,700lb pin weight, yes I was over the weight limits. Towed it from PA to FL and back. When I got home I immediately traded in the truck for a Ram 3500 Dually. The truck simply wasn’t adequate to handle the weight. Yes, it sat level and looked fine, but the suspension was too soft to handle the load without see-sawing. I drove 65 the whole way, hit a well hidden dip in the road that threw us into the left lane, began see-sawing and rocking side to side. Thank God there was no one in the left lane. I’ve been towing bumper pulls for close to 30 years, I should have known better.

Heck yes, on the verge of insanity. :S

Towing a 13,000# dry with a GVWR of 16,500# should not be a good experience even with 3500 SRW. See sawing is a sign of bad shocks, and not enough pin weight.

That said the OP's 5er, is about 11,000# dry and a GVWR just under 14,000#.

I tow a 12,360# GVWR 5er at 11,000# with a 2001, Ram 2500 and it tows great at 1,200# over the 8,800# GVWR. well within tires and axle ratings.
Was it great when I started , NO! Not bad but, bucked a bit at bridge transitions, Bilstein 5100's on the TV and shocks on the 5er, and getting the 5er close to level and carrying about 3/4 to 7/8 tank of fresh water, tank slightly ahead of axles.

Still don't need bags, still don't engage the upper over loads. Camper Package 3500 springs and 265/75-16E's in place of the stock 245/75-16E's extra 373# capacity per tire. I only run between 65 to 70 psi loaded.

[AH64ID]

Phydeauxman wrote:
Thanks for all of the great replies. The truck came with the 20" wheels on it. The tires are Michelin LT275/65R20 with a max load (single) of 3750 lbs. The door jamb sticker says the GAWR for the rear is 6100lbs. with those tires.

As far as weighing the truck/trailer together...where can I do that at? I got the truck weight when I took a load of brush to the dump.

This is a underrated HD pickup, not a LD one.

Don't exceed the rating of the tires and make sure you are registered for the weight. You have the components to safely load the read axle to 7000lbs. Ford 20" rims are rated at 3,525lbs, so that is your first real world limit.

Have fun camping.

Wildwilly101 wrote:
I tried the same thing with my 08 Ram 2500 long bed. Installed firestone ride rites, Helwig stabilizer, upgraded tires to 3,750lb rated, and hitched up the new 5er (upgraded from a 28ft bumper pull) 2,700lb pin weight, yes I was over the weight limits. Towed it from PA to FL and back. When I got home I immediately traded in the truck for a Ram 3500 Dually. The truck simply wasn’t adequate to handle the weight. Yes, it sat level and looked fine, but the suspension was too soft to handle the load without see-sawing. I drove 65 the whole way, hit a well hidden dip in the road that threw us into the left lane, began see-sawing and rocking side to side. Thank God there was no one in the left lane. I’ve been towing bumper pulls for close to 30 years, I should have known better.

You actually had a better setup suspension, and potentially stiffer, on the 2500 than a stock 3500... Sounds like the trailer wasn't properly loaded or your shocks were shot. But I would take a 2500 suspension with bags and a hellwig sway bar any day over a stock DRW suspension.

There just isn't that much different between a 2500 suspension and a 3500 DRW suspension, especially with only 2700lbs of pin weight.


My 05 3500 DRW has the same suspension your 08 2500 did, plus upper overloads that are never used due to the airbags. I can load up to 7000-7500lbs on the rear axle and tow at 70 with 1 finger on the wheel in a 30mph crosswind. That's more weight than your 5er and its tall with 2 ATV's above the bed rails. 20K GCW.

Simply put you had something else going on.

[JIMNLIN]

op wrote:
I know I am not alone out there as far as towing more 5ver than the truck is rated for...I think the most popular combo I see on the road is SRW truck with 5ver behind. And even if some of those are 350s/3500s...the GVWR capacity of those trucks isn't different from the 250s/2500s.

Since I can't un-buy the truck or the camper (especially the camper)...I am trying to find out what the real potential consequences are from continuing to tow with the truck I have. I know it is not the limitations of the engine/transmission because they put the same engine/transmission in the 350s and 450s.

Looks like you have it figured right on the engine/tranny part. Looking at Fords body service specs shows your F250 simply has a lower 6100 RAWR rear spring pack rating than the same F350 SRW which may have a 6290 RAWR or a 6730 RAWR or a 7000 RAWR spring pack ratings....all in the same truck with the same specs.

Is it the brakes not being able to appropriately stop the vehicle? To make matters worse...I had plan to replace the stock/original fuel tank with a tank that basically doubles the capacity...so I don't have to stop every 250 miles for fuel. Doing this would add another 180 lbs. on top of the weight I detailed above.

The brakes are specked the same on Fords F250/F350 SRW trucks according to Fords clicky link .

It wouldn't make cents/sense for you to loose money on a trade for a F350 SRW when the only difference is higher rated rear spring pack and higher rated 18"/20" wheels and tires.

Check out the F350 SRW on page #73 where it shows a 6.7 diesel 4x4 crew cab short bed 10k GVWR or a 11.2k GVWR ......in the same truck as yours.
So its not hard to see why dot doesn't use the truck mfg GVWR or a payload sticker number which is derived from GVWR, to determine how much load a truck may carry.

I would get separate front and rear axle weights for your truck. That way you know exactly what weight numbers your working with.
A single gross weight doesn't tell us much...... unless your hauling commercially.

[e-light]

Phydeauxman wrote:
Thanks for all of the great replies. The truck came with the 20" wheels on it. The tires are Michelin LT275/65R20 with a max load (single) of 3750 lbs. The door jamb sticker says the GAWR for the rear is 6100lbs. with those tires.

As far as weighing the truck/trailer together...where can I do that at? I got the truck weight when I took a load of brush to the dump.

You can weigh at a lot of truck stops...many of them have Cat scales...

[kaydeejay]

Phydeauxman wrote:
............I know I am not alone out there as far as towing more 5ver than the truck is rated for...I think the most popular combo I see on the road is SRW truck with 5ver behind. And even if some of those are 350s/3500s...the GVWR capacity of those trucks isn't different from the 250s/2500s.........

Just because others do it does not make it right. I think you will find a lot of those SRW trucks are 1-tons.
And your statement about GVWR is totally false - the 1-ton SRWs usually have AT LEAST 700# more payload capacity than the 3/4 tons.
If you mean GCWR, not GVWR then you are correct, given the same axle ratio.

Your problem is you have a heavy truck, which limits your carrying capacity. There are 3/4 ton trucks out there with a lot higher payload rating. Diesel, Crew cab and 4WD, plus all the "extras" take their toll.

I echo the sentiments about denial of warranty and personal liability if you were ever in an accident. Although rare, I have personally been aware of both situations while working for one of the OEMs.
Not sure if it would make a difference but if you had the rear of the truck PROFESSIONALLY converted and documented to F-350 components it MAY be a mitigating factor.
Reality is you may well still be over the GVWR of an SRW F-350!!

Don't add the extra tank. I know filling up every couple of hundred miles is a pain but it would not help your case if ever you had a problem.

BTDT, my 1st fiver put me 400# over GVWR when loaded, which is why I now have a 9600# GVWR 27 footer, with 400# of payload to spare.

[ramgunner]

Phydeauxman wrote:
As far as weighing the truck/trailer together...where can I do that at? I got the truck weight when I took a load of brush to the dump.

The best thing is to find a CAT Scale, usually available at a truck stop. You can setup an account online and use their Weigh My Truck app for your smartphone to handle the process.

Details at http://www.momentumgunner.com/towing_notes.html or www.WeighMyTruck.com