SRW vs DRW

[klr650goldwing]

Is there a general rule regarding how much weight is okay for SRW and how much is too much? We are thinking of a larger 5er and not sure how much larger will require a new truck too.

[laknox]

4x4ord wrote:
How British Columbia views weight ratings.

Basically:
What are the penalties for driving a
vehicle loaded above its GVWR?
Regulations in BC were recently changed to
address consumer and industry concerns about
the GVWR. If a vehicle, with a GVWR of
5,500 kilograms (kgs), or less, that is
manufactured before January 1, 2001 is loaded in
excess of its GVWR and enforcement officer
deems it to be unsafe, the driver of that vehicle
may be given a Notice and Order. Most light
trucks and RVs have a GVWR of less than
5,500 kgs. If a vehicle with a GVWR of more than
5,500 kgs, regardless of the date it is
manufactured, is loaded in excess of its GVWR,
the driver of that vehicle may be given a violation
ticket. Driving a vehicle loaded above its GVWR
creates a potential safety hazard because the
vehicle’s frame, suspension, brakes and tires are
not designed for weights above the rating the
manufacturer has set.

And citations can be based solely on the officer's =opinion= as to what constitutes a "safe load". Also, lots of "may" and "potential", without proof. Again, also, it can be proven that many trucks use common components between models and the weight designation can be solely for registration and has nothing to do with actual capacity. How many 250/2500 models with a "camper package" are, in fact, 350/3500 trucks in 250/2500 disguise? Same frame, same suspension, same tires, different placard. I'm =not= arguing that there are a =lot= of truly overloaded trucks out there, but I =am= arguing that there are a =lot= of trucks loaded under their GVW that are just as unsafe, if not more, than trucks that are slightly over. Given all this, it still falls on having accurate scales that are measuring the weights and, especially, portable scales are notoriously inaccurate. I know of at least 6 truckers who were weighed on the roadside by DPS and ADOT and shown to be well over legal limits, yet when they went to a certified scale, were shown to be well =under= their legal limit. One guy was cited for being ~3,500 lbs overweight (~83,000 lbs), yet I witnessed him being weighed across the certified scales at our cotton gin at ~79,500. I heard later that the gin scale operator was called as a witness in court and the judge tossed the guy's ticket and was so pissed that he questioned every single overweight ticket that came through his court for the previous couple of years. :B

Lyle

[JIMNLIN]

From what folks in BC says (rv forums and commercial haulers forums) they have to register their trucks at a GVWR.......which may be the truck makers GVWR or up to the sum of the vehicle mfg axle ratings.
BC still uses the same "weight scales" regulation which says in part;
**The gross weight of any vehicle or combination of vehicles shall be the sum of the individual gross axle weights of all the axles of the vehicle or combination of vehicles.**

The best way to find out how much weight your vehicle can carry is to subtract the net weight of the vehicle from the GVWR
(located on the driver’s door post). The number remaining is
the maximum weight your vehicle can carry.

Some of the new gen 1/2 ton....3/4 ton gas vs diesel....350/3500 SRW with those high gvwr numbers gvwr based payloads can over load the trucks RAWR if its all used in the bed over the rear axle when we look at actual weight numbers.

And a F350srw owners with a 11500 lb gvwr and a 3686 lb payload sticker isn't any safer than the same exact/same mechanical specs F350srw with a 10000 gvwr carrying the same 3686 lb payload.

Lots of reasons a truck mfg gvwr doesn't tell a trucks actual load carrying story or thats its some how the safe method.

[4x4ord]

Delete

[4x4ord]

Exactly. You would need to be grossly overloaded before most police officers would bat an eye. Then your GVWR would be used as the mark to guage by.

[rhagfo]

4x4ord wrote:
How British Columbia views weight ratings.

Basically:
What are the penalties for driving a
vehicle loaded above its GVWR?
Regulations in BC were recently changed to
address consumer and industry concerns about
the GVWR. If a vehicle, with a GVWR of
5,500 kilograms (kgs), or less, that is
manufactured before January 1, 2001 is loaded in
excess of its GVWR and enforcement officer
deems it to be unsafe, the driver of that vehicle
may be given a Notice and Order. Most light
trucks and RVs have a GVWR of less than
5,500 kgs. If a vehicle with a GVWR of more than
5,500 kgs, regardless of the date it is
manufactured, is loaded in excess of its GVWR,
the driver of that vehicle may be given a violation
ticket. Driving a vehicle loaded above its GVWR
creates a potential safety hazard because the
vehicle’s frame, suspension, brakes and tires are
not designed for weights above the rating the
manufacturer has set.

I find interesting the method used to determine if a vehicle is "Overloaded".
Q. How does a Peace/Police Officer decide if a vehicle is unsafe?
Peace/Police Officers will use visual cues to
determine if a vehicle is obviously overloaded.
These cues include vehicles:
• that look unstable when moving
• that have a front end higher than the back end (the vehicle is not level)
• with tires that appear deflated

Q. How can I find out if my vehicle is overweight or unsafe?
The easiest way to know your vehicle is safe is to
ensure you do not exceed the GVWR. You can
also use the same visual signs used by Peace/
Police Officers to determine if your vehicle is unsafely loaded.
The best way to find out how much weight your vehicle can carry is
to subtract the net weight of the vehicle from the GVWR
(located on the driver’s door post). The number remaining is
the maximum weight your vehicle can carry.
If you cannot locate the net weight of your vehicle in your
owner’s manual or if you have added accessories that increase the net
weight, you can have your unloaded vehicle weighed at a weigh scale.

This is the same way an Oregon LEO described if they would stop someone for being over weight.
This tells me that I likely would have never been stopped for a weight violation, and even if stopped for another, violation would not likely been weighed. When the picture below was taken the TV was about 1,700# over it's GVWR, NO BAGS! Just the stock Camper Package springs.




This is an issue in the past, as we now have a new TV.

[4x4ord]

How British Columbia views weight ratings.

Basically:
What are the penalties for driving a
vehicle loaded above its GVWR?
Regulations in BC were recently changed to
address consumer and industry concerns about
the GVWR. If a vehicle, with a GVWR of
5,500 kilograms (kgs), or less, that is
manufactured before January 1, 2001 is loaded in
excess of its GVWR and enforcement officer
deems it to be unsafe, the driver of that vehicle
may be given a Notice and Order. Most light
trucks and RVs have a GVWR of less than
5,500 kgs. If a vehicle with a GVWR of more than
5,500 kgs, regardless of the date it is
manufactured, is loaded in excess of its GVWR,
the driver of that vehicle may be given a violation
ticket. Driving a vehicle loaded above its GVWR
creates a potential safety hazard because the
vehicle’s frame, suspension, brakes and tires are
not designed for weights above the rating the
manufacturer has set.

[troubledwaters]

MFL wrote:

Wadcutter wrote:

twodownzero wrote:


I can't get into an argument with you about the law because I am a lawyer and I wouldn't want anyone to interpret any of this as legal advice.

I'm sure you have extensive training in truck weight laws. Obviously not from the rest of your response. Please, show one state law in any state where GVWR is a legal weight limit. I'll save you some time - there isn't any.
Manufacturers don't make the law or set legal weight limits.
Maybe you should stick with whatever field of law you practice, divorces, family law, estates, whatever it is. Obviously it isn't anything to do with truck weight laws. Even a poor attorney knows to stay in his own lane when he doesn't know anything about a particular area. At least most do.

While many do not understand the GVWR legalities, I do like the comparison of standing under the 12K lb load hanging from a 10K RATED rope. :E

Jerry

While you may not stand under a 12K load on a 10K rope, it is not illegal to do so. He is professing things to be illegal, that he can't back up. So he resorts to slight of hand, obfuscation, smoke and mirrors.

[troubledwaters]

twodownzero wrote:

Wadcutter wrote:

twodownzero wrote:


I can't get into an argument with you about the law because I am a lawyer and I wouldn't want anyone to interpret any of this as legal advice.

I'm sure you have extensive training in truck weight laws. Obviously not from the rest of your response. Please, show one state law in any state where GVWR is a legal weight limit. I'll save you some time - there isn't any.
Manufacturers don't make the law or set legal weight limits.
Maybe you should stick with whatever field of law you practice, divorces, family law, estates, whatever it is. Obviously it isn't anything to do with truck weight laws. Even a poor attorney knows to stay in his own lane when he doesn't know anything about a particular area. At least most do.

Again, I cannot respond to you and tell you what the positive law is in any given jurisdiction because I cannot give legal advice on the internet. I feel comfortable saying that your assertion is not correct and that you should consult someone licensed in the relevant jurisdiction if you want to know what the law is. I am personally aware of at least one state where your assertion is not correct because of the interaction between two laws that you might not realize create precisely the situation you describe--GVWR becomes the relevant limit. And for all I know, there may be more, or it may be an outlier. Either way, traffic laws are not the only thing in play here, and if you hurt someone by operating a vehicle outside of its design limits, you are tempting fate to say the least.

Posting a link to a section of the law on the internet for someone else to read is not giving legal advice.

I think your blowing smoke, big blue clouds of it. You ain't no lawyer I'd ever want representing me. If I can see through the smoke, a judge would be rolling over laughing. Put up or shut up.

[twodownzero]

Wadcutter wrote:

twodownzero wrote:


I can't get into an argument with you about the law because I am a lawyer and I wouldn't want anyone to interpret any of this as legal advice.

I'm sure you have extensive training in truck weight laws. Obviously not from the rest of your response. Please, show one state law in any state where GVWR is a legal weight limit. I'll save you some time - there isn't any.
Manufacturers don't make the law or set legal weight limits.
Maybe you should stick with whatever field of law you practice, divorces, family law, estates, whatever it is. Obviously it isn't anything to do with truck weight laws. Even a poor attorney knows to stay in his own lane when he doesn't know anything about a particular area. At least most do.

Again, I cannot respond to you and tell you what the positive law is in any given jurisdiction because I cannot give legal advice on the internet. I feel comfortable saying that your assertion is not correct and that you should consult someone licensed in the relevant jurisdiction if you want to know what the law is. I am personally aware of at least one state where your assertion is not correct because of the interaction between two laws that you might not realize create precisely the situation you describe--GVWR becomes the relevant limit. And for all I know, there may be more, or it may be an outlier. Either way, traffic laws are not the only thing in play here, and if you hurt someone by operating a vehicle outside of its design limits, you are tempting fate to say the least.

[laknox]

Wadcutter wrote:

twodownzero wrote:


I can't get into an argument with you about the law because I am a lawyer and I wouldn't want anyone to interpret any of this as legal advice.

I'm sure you have extensive training in truck weight laws. Obviously not from the rest of your response. Please, show one state law in any state where GVWR is a legal weight limit. I'll save you some time - there isn't any.
Manufacturers don't make the law or set legal weight limits.
Maybe you should stick with whatever field of law you practice, divorces, family law, estates, whatever it is. Obviously it isn't anything to do with truck weight laws. Even a poor attorney knows to stay in his own lane when he doesn't know anything about a particular area. At least most do.

States' weight rules are =mostly= for =registration=, not for what a specific truck/vehicle can carry/tow. Yes, when you get into commercial stuff with high/wide/heavy, then you do have limits, but you also have to have permits and, I'd be willing to bet, certified documentation of =actual= heights/widths/weights, before you can move an inch.

Now, where GVWs come into play, are more on the civil =liability= side of things, so if an accident =does= happen, then the lawyers have something to argue about. I'd be surprised, though, that insurance company lawyers are smart enough to know that if an entire axle assembly from a 1t truck is also used in a 3/4t truck, he'll have a much harder time proving an overloaded condition just because the mfr says one has a higher limit than the other. Hell, the way a trailer comes apart in an accident, I'd bet that they couldn't find enough of the trailer to weigh to show that it was overloading the truck. :B

FWIW, I've known more than one person who was ticketed for towing a trailer that exceeded the truck's =registered= weight limit, but was nowhere close to the truck =or= trailer's GVWs.

Lyle

[laknox]

Me Again wrote:

laknox wrote:

klr650goldwing wrote:
Thanks everyone. There is a wealth of information here. I checked the weight tag on my truck and found the following information: GVWR 9900, FRONT GAWR 5200, REAR GAWR 6830. I don't know how to calculate total towing capacity from those numbers. I bought this truck new. When new it had 3.73 differential gearing. I had those gears changed to 4.56. That increased the towing capacity of the truck, but I don't remember how the truck shop calculated those numbers. Can anyone determine the maximum weight 5er this truck can tow?

It's not what you can TOW, it's what you can CARRY, i.e. PAYLOAD, that's the critical number. Sure, you can tow more, but you can't CARRY any more than you could when that truck rolled off the line. First thing you need to do is to load up your truck as if you were going camping. You, passenger(s), hitch, full fuel and "stuff", then hit the scales to see what your truck weighs. Subtract that from the 9900 lb GVW from your placard. THAT is the PAYLOAD capacity that you have left to CARRY the pin of a FW (or GN). If you =really= want good #'s, then take the FW with you to the scales and weigh =all= axles, steer, driver and trailer, both with and without the FW hitched up. Do it ready to camp to get =real= #'s.

Lyle

Lyle, you missed a very important item. That is weighing the individual axles. Pin weight goes almost 100 % on the trucks real axle.

One wants to get that rear axle weight and subtract it from the RGAWR. That number will tell you how much pin weight the truck can handle. Once hooked up a person should return to the scale and get three readings, Front and rear TV weights and the trailer axle weights. Add all three together to and compare that to the trucks combine weight rating.

Compare the TV rear axle weight to trucks RGAWR and assure the tires weight ratings add up to or exceed the RGAWR. Add the two TV axle weights and if you are in a state that licenses tonnage assure that you have purchase enough for the weight the truck is carrying.

Hmmm... Did you miss the last 2 sentences above? "If you =really= want good #'s, then take the FW with you to the scales and weigh =all= axles, steer, driver and trailer, both with and without the FW hitched up. Do it ready to camp to get =real= #'s."

Lyle

[Cummins12V98]

Why would they have my SAE RAWR at 9,750# and without adding a single # to my factory front axle weight make me over my GVWR by 1,000#?

I have never been given a reasonable answer to the above! Simply impossible for me to not go over my GVWR loading to my RAWR.

[MFL]

Wadcutter wrote:

twodownzero wrote:


I can't get into an argument with you about the law because I am a lawyer and I wouldn't want anyone to interpret any of this as legal advice.

I'm sure you have extensive training in truck weight laws. Obviously not from the rest of your response. Please, show one state law in any state where GVWR is a legal weight limit. I'll save you some time - there isn't any.
Manufacturers don't make the law or set legal weight limits.
Maybe you should stick with whatever field of law you practice, divorces, family law, estates, whatever it is. Obviously it isn't anything to do with truck weight laws. Even a poor attorney knows to stay in his own lane when he doesn't know anything about a particular area. At least most do.

While many do not understand the GVWR legalities, I do like the comparison of standing under the 12K lb load hanging from a 10K RATED rope. :E

Jerry

[Wadcutter]

twodownzero wrote:


I can't get into an argument with you about the law because I am a lawyer and I wouldn't want anyone to interpret any of this as legal advice.

I'm sure you have extensive training in truck weight laws. Obviously not from the rest of your response. Please, show one state law in any state where GVWR is a legal weight limit. I'll save you some time - there isn't any.
Manufacturers don't make the law or set legal weight limits.
Maybe you should stick with whatever field of law you practice, divorces, family law, estates, whatever it is. Obviously it isn't anything to do with truck weight laws. Even a poor attorney knows to stay in his own lane when he doesn't know anything about a particular area. At least most do.

[rhagfo]

twodownzero wrote:

Wadcutter wrote:

twodownzero wrote:

It doesn't matter what your state says. If you're over your GVWR, you're overloaded.
If you need a law enforcement officer to ticket you in order to ensure you're loading your truck safely, I don't really know what to say.

Please! Let's stick with what is actually the law and not what someone think the law says or wishes the law said just to support their unsupported argument. People who spout off that stuff have never read a law or most likely even know where to look for it even if they could understand what they read.
No LEO is going to give him a ticket for being over the manufacturer's GVWR. There's a very simple reason why. The manufacturer's GVWR is a rating by the manufacturer. It's not a legal weight limit. Manufacturers do not make the law. It is a non-enforceable rating used only by the manufacturer for their ratings. It's not a legal document and has no bearing on legal weights.
I didn't get my knowledge from listening to some fat guy in a flannel shirt sitting around a campfire. I taught truck laws and weight laws for a lot of years. I was recognized by the courts and FMCS as an expert in truck laws and weights. If a person is going to use a legal comment to support their personal opinion then post the statute. At least it might show the person knows what they're talking about.

I can't get into an argument with you about the law because I am a lawyer and I wouldn't want anyone to interpret any of this as legal advice. Google "accidental client" if you need an explanation as to why. I can tell you that the sources of law in the United States are many and varied, what may apply to a given situation is generally pretty difficult for a layperson to apply. I can also tell by your response that you're not a lawyer, because the United States has 50 separate state's laws interacting with a myriad of federal statutes and administrative regulations in such a way that broad pronouncements like you made in your post are simply not possible. Were you to consult a lawyer in the relevant state, you could probably get an opinion on what the rule of law is for that state. I can say that the idea that you cannot be ticketed for loading beyond GVWR anywhere is false, as I am aware of places where that is not true. Regardless, you could still find yourself in serious hot water--with a court or your insurance company or worse--if you operate a vehicle that is unsafe. In those circumstances, it may not matter if your combination was legally licensed or not.

Tow ratings/vehicle ratings are not a matter that requires a legal discussion in any event. The law, in some instances, sets the minimal moral standard. Many of you posting here seem to be of the perspective that if something isn't illegal, it must be a good thing to do or therefore safe. A high school civics lesson is in order for those people--the government should not be setting your moral standard. I could go into the many examples of conduct that may be legal, but most would find questionable at the very least.

Tow ratings and vehicle ratings are matters of engineering. I leave those judgments to engineers and the companies who are willing to stand behind their products when used as intended. Just like I don't take twice the daily dose of Tylenol and hope my liver survives, I don't overload my truck by 20% and then pray it holds up in bad weather or an unforeseeable crash. I'm also not willing to risk finding myself in court explaining how I knew my truck was rated for x and I deliberately loaded it to 1.2x and took off down the roadway, endangering the public.

A person who is aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk and takes it anyway could be charged with a crime if that risk caused injury or death to another person. I'm not talking about a traffic ticket or a fine. I'm talking about if you lose control of your vehicle combination and it kills someone, you could find yourself in prison.

I also couldn't say for sure, but I have serious doubt that an insurance company's policy would cover those circumstances. Insurance companies aren't exactly looking for ways not to pay, but they also cannot anticipate all of the ways people will use their vehicles beyond their manufactured limits.

The interesting thing about this discussion is that nobody would stand under a crane lifting 12,000 lbs on a rope rated for 10,000. Everyone knows there's an engineering factor in there, but none of you would put your life on the line to find out how much. The day is coming when RVers are going to be subjected to the same kind of scrutiny that commercial drivers are, because RVs are chronically overloaded and it's a miracle that they aren't involved in more incidents. All it's going to take is one high profile incident to end that forever, though, and I'm amazed every day that it hasn't happened already. We require special licenses for motorcycles but very rarely so for RVs, and yet many of them are very severely overloaded, perhaps even unknowingly.

If you need the law to tell you that your behavior is unsafe, I just hope we never compete for the same stretch of roadway.

twodownzero, to start I like your post, I had an experience on another forum with another member had a Toy Hauler not a 5th wheel, and was so set to not go over his GVWR towing it chose to lighten the tongue to the point that it induced sway in the combination. Now "Safety within GVWR on both the TV and TH, BUT in doing so created a unstable situation.
Now if he had chosen to run the TV over GVWR, we are talking a couple hundred pounds max, the combination would have been more stable, even over GVWR, but easily within tire and axle.
So to stay under the TV GVWR, in my opinion choose to tow in an unsafe condition even if he was within all ratings. Where if he would have gone over the TV GVWR, the package would have been safer, though not necessarily legal.
He did upgrade the TV shortly after that incident.