Towing Capability

[txbassmn]

Ok, wife has me doubting myself now, so here is the question. I have a 2013 F250 6.7L diesel FX4 and thinking about getting a 5th wheel. The one we are looking at is a Bay Hill 295 and dry weight is 10800#, pin weight of 2100#, and can have a gross weight of 14000#. I need to know if anyone thinks I would have a problem pulling this thing. Thank you for any help y'all could give me.

[gmcsmoke]

lol at the 3/4 ton guys who have to "justify" their purchase. "well GVWR is just a marketing number, the tires can hold more, it's the same axle as a 1 ton, well it's just missing a helper spring". Funny you never hear that from a guy that has a 1 ton.

[mallardtuff]

I'm in the same situation. Have a 2013 F-250 FX4 CC. Had it weighed, 8340#'s loaded full of fuel, people, some gear. Drive axle 3360#'s, steer axle 4980#'s. RAWR 6,100#'s, stock 20" tires rated at 3750#'s/each. 10,000GVWR.

According to the GVWR, I need a 5'ver with a pin weight of no more than 1400#'s (need to add hitch, 200#'s). Well that's like a "half ton towable" 5'ver all the companies are marketing.

I would bet at least 30-40% of people towing 5'vers with 3/4 ton SRW trucks are over the GVWR. I see, way too many people pulling 38-41 foot rigs with 3/4 ton SRW. Probably still well within the RAWR and their tire ratings. I'm still looking and have accepted the fact I will be over the 10,000GVWR by 300-600#'s depending on what I buy.

If anybody can help I'm looking for a bunkhouse model in the 34-37 foot range. Any ideas?

Fact is, with a truck like your describing, you will probably go over you 10,000 GVWR. Question is, how far over do you want to be?

[FastEagle]

caberto wrote:

FastEagle wrote:

The GAWR for your front and rear axles have been set by the vehicle manufacturer. Their values are depicted on the vehicle's certification label. You cannot change them by changing tires.

FastEagle

Yes, set by the manufacturer for the tires that shipped with the vehicle. Ever notice how the RAWR is curiously matched to the same load rating as the tires the pickup comes with? Hmm....

This is nothing new, there will always be people who argue one way or the other. I've offered another way for the OP to look at his weights, which is still legal and safe. It's his choice to do as he sees fit, one way is not better than the other.

Cheers 🙂

Maybe you have misinterpreted this statement in the axle certification process. "Multiple GVWR-GAWR ratings. (1) (For passenger cars only) In cases in which different tire sizes are offered as a customer option, a manufacturer may at its option list more than one set of values for GVWR and GAWR, to meet the requirements of paragraphs (g) (3) and (4) of this section. If the label shows more than one set of weight rating values, each value shall be followed by the phrase “with _tires,” inserting the proper tire size designations. A manufacturer may, at its option, list one or more tire sizes where only one set of weight ratings is provided".

FastEagle

[Cummins12V98]

Me Again wrote:

SLE wrote:
FYI, my truck has an 8,800lb GVWR on the door yet the local DMV has it registered for 11,200lbs and they did this with out me saying a word or requesting it.

My state Washington takes 1.5 times the tare weight of the pickup and arounds up to the next higher even thousand. So this state licensed and taxes my 2500 with GVWR sticker of 8800 at 12,000. No where in the state code does it say anything about a factory GVWR being a limit on a private vehicle. If I was hauling commercial with it and required to stop at weigh stations then I would get an over weight ticket for 12001 lbs. Also the truck would have to display a signage of "Gross Weight 12,000". The ticket would be for no paying enough tonage. I could ask them to license is at 14000 pounds and they would do that, charging me more.

Like I say, this site and other RV sites just do not understand weight laws. The federal bridge weight laws are based on weight per axle, number of tires on the axle, spacing of the axle etc. No pickup is going to be over those, as they are for much larger trucks. States enforce these bridge weight laws and Canada is in sync with them.

Chris

My Dually per WA State weighed 8,020# from the factory. They found up to the next ton then add two tons. So I am licensed for 14K and I get a hit for commercial tonnage. So much for the $30 licensee fee!

I think that is how you are licensed also.

Probably a good thing since the last time I weighed my truck loaded the front was 5,180# and the rear was 8,780# total of 13,960#. Within my axle ratings.

[caberto]

FastEagle wrote:

The GAWR for your front and rear axles have been set by the vehicle manufacturer. Their values are depicted on the vehicle's certification label. You cannot change them by changing tires.

FastEagle

Yes, set by the manufacturer for the tires that shipped with the vehicle. Ever notice how the RAWR is curiously matched to the same load rating as the tires the pickup comes with? Hmm....

This is nothing new, there will always be people who argue one way or the other. I've offered another way for the OP to look at his weights, which is still legal and safe. It's his choice to do as he sees fit, one way is not better than the other.

Cheers 🙂

[therink]

Double post

[therink]

For what it's worth: The rear axle and drive shaft in 2011+ gas GM 3500 is larger than 2011+ gas GM 2500. The axles are the same size with DMAX diesel 2500 and 3500. May not be true for Ford / Dodge.

I was exceeding payload with my fiver in my previous 2500 so upgraded to 3500 srw. I am now comfortably within all posted weight ratings with the 1 ton. I have a family to keep safe and don't need the liability if something were to happen with an over weighted truck. This is me, and to each his own.

By the way, the 1 ton handles significantly better under load than my 3/4 ton did. No more bottoming out.

[FastEagle]

caberto wrote:
Your truck can "pull" that 5er just fine. It's the pin weight that will be the biggest factor, but even with factory tires, you'll see that you are either fine (comfortably under your RAWR), or can be fine by replacing the factory tires.

The RAWR of your truck I think you said is 6100 as indicated (with the standard factory tires); that rating is limited by your rear tires' load capacity. Weigh your truck as you would have it loaded for towing, get your actual rear axle weight and subtract that from your RAWR of 6100 lbs. That's what you have left over for pin weight with the standard factory tires.

If you replace the factory tires with larger/load range E tires, you will effectively increase that 6100 RAWR by the combined load range on the bigger tires at max PSI. Will you be over the truck's GVWR? Probably, but probably not by much, the main number you are concerned with is the RAWR (some will argue this point, this is the big debate, so the final decision is up to you). Stay within that RAWR and you will be fine. As others have said, the only difference between 3/4 and 1 ton trucks is almost always an added leaf spring and overload block (and that's what give the single wheel 1 ton the higher GVWR), but a set of air bags will remedy that inequality if your truck happens to sag a little due to the missing leaf spring.

The GAWR for your front and rear axles have been set by the vehicle manufacturer. Their values are depicted on the vehicle's certification label. You cannot change them by changing tires.

FastEagle

[Me_Again]

PA12DRVR wrote:
The below is a darn good question:

"Just which University granted your Mechanical Engineering degree and in what states do you carry P.E. registration?

This is important since you seem to know more about axle design than the Engineers working for the manufacturers."

To the OP: the question for you to decide is whether you want to stay within the ratings provided by the manufacturers or whether you want to go with the opinions of a bunch of self-assured internet experts.

Those same experts will critique the GVWR and GCVWR provided by the manufacturer ("its no different than the 350" "Legally, it doesn't matter" "Axle ratings are all that matter"), but the only party that assembled and evaluated the entire truck is the manufacturer.

Again, your call if you want to remain within the manufacturer's ratings or if you want to ignore them. When I towed my 5th wheel, I felt it as an acceptable risk to be 500#'s over the GVWR (on a 13,000 # GVWR) since I was about 3,000#s under the GCVWR and since that 500# overage only came if I had full water tanks plus everything else as loaded for a month-long trip.

You keep saying axles. If the axle/rear differential is the same one in 250/2500's and 350/3500 SRW's, where is the difference in the axles? The rear axle in GM and Dodge 2500/3500 trucks is the same AAM rated at somewhere between 10500 and 11500 depending on where you look. Chris

[caberto]

Allworth... any sane person knows the weakest link in the RAWR of a pickup truck is the tires... since the axles themselves on all 2500/3500 pickups are rated somewhere around 10K lbs or more, depending on truck make and year. Do a little research :-). Since the same axle and frame is used in 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, replacing the tires (and adding a leaf spring or air bags) will effectively raise the RAWR and still be well within the actual axle (Dana, AAM,whatever it may be for his truck) rating. Like I said, this is debatable on which rating you wish to use, but staying withing within the RAWR and not overloading the tires is key. If you don't agree with that method, that is your choice. The weight police is out today 🙂

[PA12DRVR]

The below is a darn good question:

"Just which University granted your Mechanical Engineering degree and in what states do you carry P.E. registration?

This is important since you seem to know more about axle design than the Engineers working for the manufacturers."

To the OP: the question for you to decide is whether you want to stay within the ratings provided by the manufacturers or whether you want to go with the opinions of a bunch of self-assured internet experts.

Those same experts will critique the GVWR and GCVWR provided by the manufacturer ("its no different than the 350" "Legally, it doesn't matter" "Axle ratings are all that matter"), but the only party that assembled and evaluated the entire truck is the manufacturer.

Again, your call if you want to remain within the manufacturer's ratings or if you want to ignore them. When I towed my 5th wheel, I felt it as an acceptable risk to be 500#'s over the GVWR (on a 13,000 # GVWR) since I was about 3,000#s under the GCVWR and since that 500# overage only came if I had full water tanks plus everything else as loaded for a month-long trip.

[Allworth]

caberto,

Just which University granted your Mechanical Engineering degree and in what states do you carry P.E. registration?

This is important since you seem to know more about axle design than the Engineers working for the manufacturers.

[caberto]

Your truck can "pull" that 5er just fine. It's the pin weight that will be the biggest factor, but even with factory tires, you'll see that you are either fine (comfortably under your RAWR), or can be fine by replacing the factory tires.

The RAWR of your truck I think you said is 6100 as indicated (with the standard factory tires); that rating is limited by your rear tires' load capacity. Weigh your truck as you would have it loaded for towing, get your actual rear axle weight and subtract that from your RAWR of 6100 lbs. That's what you have left over for pin weight with the standard factory tires.

If you replace the factory tires with larger/load range E tires, you will effectively increase that 6100 RAWR by the combined load range on the bigger tires at max PSI. Will you be over the truck's GVWR? Probably, but probably not by much, the main number you are concerned with is the RAWR (some will argue this point, this is the big debate, so the final decision is up to you). Stay within that RAWR and you will be fine. As others have said, the only difference between 3/4 and 1 ton trucks is almost always an added leaf spring and overload block (and that's what give the single wheel 1 ton the higher GVWR), but a set of air bags will remedy that inequality if your truck happens to sag a little due to the missing leaf spring.

[JIMNLIN]

txbassmn wrote:
According to what I have been told, I will be over the GVWR but not over on the GAWR on the truck. The GVWR is 10,000, the GCVWR is 23,500, and FGAWR is 5200, and the RGAWR is 6100. This is where I am confused. I will be over on the GVWR even if I have a 1300 pin weight. I'm not over the axle weight but am on the truck weight.

As others have said a trucks GVWR isn't a legal number for how much load a truck may carry. The vehicles axle/tires determine loads on the truck and in particular the trucks rear axle/tires. This from a states size and weights commander (CA);
(snip)..."prohibits the loading of tires above the maximum load rating marked on the tire,...." (snip)
"in the case of a pickup truck towing a large fifth wheel travel trailer, as those types of trailers tend to transfer a larger portion of their weight to the last axle of the towing unit causing that axle to exceed the tire load limits."

Looking at Fords body service advisory specs shows the F250/F350 SRW has the same tow ratings/frame/engine/tranny/front and rear axles/brakes/etc. Exception being higher rated rear spring pack/tires and wheels.

Add Fords higher rated 18" or 20" tires and wheels and after market suspension help or Fords F350 SRW rear spring pack or bags and your F250 has the same load carrying ability as the F350 SRW.

Your choice.

[Me_Again]

SLE wrote:
FYI, my truck has an 8,800lb GVWR on the door yet the local DMV has it registered for 11,200lbs and they did this with out me saying a word or requesting it.

My state Washington takes 1.5 times the tare weight of the pickup and arounds up to the next higher even thousand. So this state licensed and taxes my 2500 with GVWR sticker of 8800 at 12,000. No where in the state code does it say anything about a factory GVWR being a limit on a private vehicle. If I was hauling commercial with it and required to stop at weigh stations then I would get an over weight ticket for 12001 lbs. Also the truck would have to display a signage of "Gross Weight 12,000". The ticket would be for no paying enough tonage. I could ask them to license is at 14000 pounds and they would do that, charging me more.

Like I say, this site and other RV sites just do not understand weight laws. The federal bridge weight laws are based on weight per axle, number of tires on the axle, spacing of the axle etc. No pickup is going to be over those, as they are for much larger trucks. States enforce these bridge weight laws and Canada is in sync with them.

Chris