Very Disappointed with New Keystone Alpine

[Mike_Stanbro]

We just purchased a 2018 Alpine 3400RS. We custom ordered it as we wanted full body paint, a generator, and dual-pane windows. I took delivery two weeks ago.

This is my fifth RV so I am no stranger to the issues one encounters with a new RV. Unfortunately this one has a remarkable number of problems and I am very disappointed with the quantity of them and the seriousness of a few:

1) The TPO roof membrane has numerous sharp objects under it that will eventually protrude through it (staples, screws, wood chips, etc.). It appears that the roof was not cleaned before the membrane was stretched over the decking material. I towed the trailer to the Keystone factor in Indiana (2000 miles) and showed the roof to the Customer Support Manager. I was told Keystone will do nothing about it. If it leaks within the warranty period, they will evaluate it then. Which means what -- patches where the objects poke through? - UGH! I wanted them to install a new roof at the factory. After being told by the Customer Support Manager that this was considered "acceptable build quality" I was furious. Had I known this was their position, I would not have taken delivery of the trailer.

I get up on my RV roof a least once a year to clean and put down UV inhibitor. I also plan to install solar panels and will need to clean them off periodically to maintain peak performance. It will be difficult if not impossible to walk on the roof without stepping on an area where one of those sharp objects is poking upwards. It will be no time before holes form. To be blunt, I'm pissed.

2) The power for the emergency breakaway circuit was wired without a fuse or circuit breaker and the hot wire of the breakaway switch was installed such that it chafed between the front cap and the pin box. It eventually shorted to the pin box which is chassis ground. That wire got extremely hot and melted all of the insulation on that wire, melted the split-loom tubing it was routed in, and melted against the other wires in the loom. It was a #16 wire, wired directly from the battery to the hot side of the breakaway switch. The brake wires on the switched side of the switch are #12 and there are two of them. The current draw on that circuit is over 15A. A #16 wire is too small for that current and that it was wired with no over-current protection is unbelievable. Why it did not burn up all the wires in that loom, or the entire trailer when it shorted to the chassis is a mystery. Built to RVIA standards? I think not.

3) A hydraulic line on the right-front jack split and is leaking fluid.

4) The light fixture over the kitchen island lost pieces of its hardware due to vibration and the pieces got under the driver-side slide during transit from the factory to the dealer. When the slide went out, the pieces trapped under the slide damaged the vinyl flooring. Not sure how that is going to get fixed as it is sheet material. A whole new floor? Again, the Customer Support Manager made it clear that it would not be done at the factory. How well is that going to turn out if done by a dealer?

5) The bathroom shower has a chip in the gel coat on the floor so that black color from the underlying fiberglass is showing. I don't know if a workman dropped a tool on it or if it is a manufacturing defect. Either way, I was allowed to leave the factory with the chip in it. QA? I am also unsure how that is going to get fixed.

6) One of the ceiling fan blades broke off on the trip home from the Keystone factory, apparently due to road shock. Is that going to be an on-going problem?

7) The rear screws of the drawer slides that support the kitchen drawers were only 3/8" long and screwed into soft pine. They pulled out of the pine and the drawers were dangling from just the front screws when I opened them.

😎 The audio cable that runs from the living room TV to the stereo head unit was wired such that audio out from the TV was plugged into the audio out of the head unit (should have gone to audio in). Granted, a minor issue, but it took me a long time to figure out what was wrong and required that I pull the head unit out of the cabinet to trace the wiring.

9) The passenger-side slide is leaving large patches, several feet long, of black marks on the vinyl floor that I scrub away only to have reappear the next time the trailer goes down the road. It seems there is black material on the underside of the slide's leading edge that is rubbing off on the floor due to vibration during travel.

In summary, this unit is NOT up to the quality I expected from Keystone. That they did such a poor job on the roof is infuriating. I purchased this Alpine due to the positive things I read about the Alpine brand and Keystone products. To say that I am disappointed is an understatement.

The fact that Keystone considers the issues with the roof "acceptable build quality" should be a warning to potential buyers.

[goducks10]

I'm not sure the RV industry can build a quality RV. Most of the issues range from supplier to poor execution to old school design. Lets face it there's just a lot of junky stuff in an RV. Take booth dinettes for example. Poor quality cushions to start with. Won't matter if they look like a million dollars. Most aren't worth sitting on for more than 20 mins.
Crappy stereos. Doesn't matter if they're wired in right or not, they're still behind the times for functions and most speakers are $10 cheapos.
I could go on forever but you get the point. If it's not one thing then it'll be another.

[Tdavid]

laknox wrote:


To that I say "CR@P!". Given the "quality" of what's put out, if you take extra time building the same # of units, you're almost certain to put out better quality. Drilling a hole to run wires or pex instead of taking a hammer and bashing the hole out (pics posted here a few years ago), cleaning roofs off so trash doesn't poke through the membrane (post just last week regarding this), making sure ducting is actually attached to vents (many, many posts about this), =cleaning= the ducting out (ditto), making sure wiring is attached with the right polarity or not chafed (recent post about a new FW with =burned= wiring at the j-box on the pin of a brand new unit), the list goes on.

If the workforce is so thin in IN, why don't the mfrs consider moving to another location? Hell, here in AZ, with the housing boom going on, people are moving in to work in construction. No need to scrape the bottom of the barrel and hire Marty Methhead. While the economy is improved, there are still many large, unused commercial spaces around the state where a manufacturing facility could be set up. Weather means no snow days shutting down production. COL is cheaper than IN, I'm sure. Two major E/W interstates, with one, I-10, having much better weather to move inventory, especially in the winter.

The list goes on...

Lyle

Again, this is not a speed issue. Quality is a culture. A bad worker doesn’t automatically get better when they do it slower.

The worker shortage is a recent issue due to a recovered economy (more demand) but a decimated labor supply from when the recession hit, Elkhart was one of the hardest hit when luxury goods demand dried up. A lot of the skilled workers moved away, and not so easy to get them back now that they are gainfully employed elsewhere.

Moving a plant because of a temporary boom certainly isn’t a viable option, layered on top of the supply chain complications that would cause (lots of suppliers to the manufacturers are local).

Should the demand sustain, those that invest in efficiency initiatives will be the ones that get both throughput *and* quality. They’ll be able to do more with less, and Marty Methead will be out of a job, since he doesn’t do quality at any speed (pun intended).

[goducks10]

justme wrote:
There is little automation in RV industry which means the units are mostly hand built and therefore no two are exactly the same. They all use similar components and accessories. Some are a little better engineered than others but the builds are inconsistent.
Therefore the only real protection a buyers has is warranty protection and PDI. So buyer be ware and do your best to not accept a bad build.

Lance is IMO at the top on automation. Thats why you don't see that cheap rib gasket between the cabinets and dissimilar components.
Seems to me they've taken the error out of assembly when it comes to components matching. Doesn't mean workers can't screw up. There's still plenty of room for error on other things. But it's a start.

[justme]

There is little automation in RV industry which means the units are mostly hand built and therefore no two are exactly the same. They all use similar components and accessories. Some are a little better engineered than others but the builds are inconsistent.
Therefore the only real protection a buyers has is warranty protection and PDI. So buyer be ware and do your best to not accept a bad build.

[laknox]

ToddD wrote:

laknox wrote:


The industry as a whole could start by:

1) Adopting an industry-wide building code.
2) Geting off the pay-per-piece wages that allow the crews to build the day's quota as fast as they can, then leave. Meaning, if they can build the X units for the day's quota in 5 hours, they go home. If the mfr wants X units, make the crews build them in a normal 8 hour shift.

As an owner of a manufacturing firm, I don’t have a problem with work being done fast, I just have a problem of bad work being done fast.

This is a quality accountability problem, not a speed problem.

However, with a workforce supply issue in the Elkhart area, it is difficult to deploy a culture of quality, as the workers themselves are key ingredients in that strategy.

It’s not impossible to increase output with a fixed labor input while simultaneously holding a high quality standard, but it is definitely difficult to do, which is why there is a quality issue across most of the industry right now.

To achieve high efficiency with quality, first you need quality workers.

To that I say "CR@P!". Given the "quality" of what's put out, if you take extra time building the same # of units, you're almost certain to put out better quality. Drilling a hole to run wires or pex instead of taking a hammer and bashing the hole out (pics posted here a few years ago), cleaning roofs off so trash doesn't poke through the membrane (post just last week regarding this), making sure ducting is actually attached to vents (many, many posts about this), =cleaning= the ducting out (ditto), making sure wiring is attached with the right polarity or not chafed (recent post about a new FW with =burned= wiring at the j-box on the pin of a brand new unit), the list goes on.

If the workforce is so thin in IN, why don't the mfrs consider moving to another location? Hell, here in AZ, with the housing boom going on, people are moving in to work in construction. No need to scrape the bottom of the barrel and hire Marty Methhead. While the economy is improved, there are still many large, unused commercial spaces around the state where a manufacturing facility could be set up. Weather means no snow days shutting down production. COL is cheaper than IN, I'm sure. Two major E/W interstates, with one, I-10, having much better weather to move inventory, especially in the winter.

The list goes on...

Lyle

[Ralph_Cramden]

ToddD wrote:

laknox wrote:


The industry as a whole could start by:

1) Adopting an industry-wide building code.
2) Geting off the pay-per-piece wages that allow the crews to build the day's quota as fast as they can, then leave. Meaning, if they can build the X units for the day's quota in 5 hours, they go home. If the mfr wants X units, make the crews build them in a normal 8 hour shift.

As an owner of a manufacturing firm, I don’t have a problem with work being done fast, I just have a problem of bad work being done fast.

This is a quality accountability problem, not a speed problem.

However, with a workforce supply issue in the Elkhart area, it is difficult to deploy a culture of quality, as the workers themselves are key ingredients in that strategy.

It’s not impossible to increase output with a fixed labor input while simultaneously holding a high quality standard, but it is definitely difficult to do, which is why there is a quality issue across most of the industry right now.

To achieve high efficiency with quality, first you need quality workers.

Have to agree with all of that. It's an effect of the times and the current generations now of age to be in the workforce. We manufacturer specialty structural building components and keeping our plants staffed is next to impossible despite good wages, benefits, and union representation. On new hires failing preliminary background and drugs tests is 25% or more of all applicants. I don't even know what The turnover rate is, I lost interest in tracking it.....60 to 70%. The 20 /30 year olds today for the most part do not want anything to do with anything considered manual work, but they want top dollar pay. I'm sure glad I only have to deal with it a few more years.

That being said the RV Industry operates in cycles of relative boom and bust. The curve is getting ready to start the downturn if it hasn't already. Just wait and see what happens once the price of oil gets a little higher. The execs know the industry well, and are doing everything they can think of to hold prices, sales levels, and more importantly provide return to investors as long as possible. The only place they can get the savings is cheaper materials and lower labor costs which is usually in the form of more out the door with less. It's not sustainable. RVs are a by product of the main business which is making money, and they (The execs) all know that sooner rather than later they'll be looking for a new job or shuttering facilities. That day is right around the corner.

[Paul_Clancy]

Which requires quality wages. I’m guessing those are back in the fracking fields now along with the quality workers.

[ToddD]

laknox wrote:


The industry as a whole could start by:

1) Adopting an industry-wide building code.
2) Geting off the pay-per-piece wages that allow the crews to build the day's quota as fast as they can, then leave. Meaning, if they can build the X units for the day's quota in 5 hours, they go home. If the mfr wants X units, make the crews build them in a normal 8 hour shift.

As an owner of a manufacturing firm, I don’t have a problem with work being done fast, I just have a problem of bad work being done fast.

This is a quality accountability problem, not a speed problem.

However, with a workforce supply issue in the Elkhart area, it is difficult to deploy a culture of quality, as the workers themselves are key ingredients in that strategy.

It’s not impossible to increase output with a fixed labor input while simultaneously holding a high quality standard, but it is definitely difficult to do, which is why there is a quality issue across most of the industry right now.

To achieve high efficiency with quality, first you need quality workers.

[goducks10]

dapperdan wrote:
"The industry as a whole could start by:

1) Adopting an industry-wide building code.
2) Geting off the pay-per-piece wages that allow the crews to build the day's quota as fast as they can, then leave. Meaning, if they can build the X units for the day's quota in 5 hours, they go home. If the mfr wants X units, make the crews build them in a normal 8 hour shift.
3) Adopting a more auto-industry-like dealer network that forces dealers to take a FIFO approach to service, no matter where a unit was bought.
4) Ramping up their parts departments so dealers don't wait weeks and months for parts and have them often not be the =right= parts when they finally get there.
5) Pay the dealers for warranty service in a timely manner and a =fair= price.

Notice, I never said anything about LCI products, as that's a completely different issue.

Lylle"

This is a GREAT idea but we as consumers just keep buying sub-par constructed units in record numbers so this most likely will never happen. 😞

Dan

Americans love their WalMarts, Targets and anywhere else that sells low priced stuff.

Same with RV's. They want a low priced RV because most don't use them for more than 20 nights a year. They may start out gung ho but after 3-4 years it's sitting in storage doing nothing. I'm sure most use them just barely enough to justify the low payment for 10-15 years.
Most would never buy a high quality RV for way more than they're paying now. I know I wouldn't drop $60-70K for a 5er that I only use 40-50 nights a year.
And you'll never see the quota system go away. No RV MFG is going to pay their workers more money thinking they'll get better quality from Marty meth head, because the MFG down the street is going to still use the quota to pump out cheaper units to sell more faster.
The RV industry is stuck in a time warp and can't afford to get out of it.

[dapperdan]

"The industry as a whole could start by:

1) Adopting an industry-wide building code.
2) Geting off the pay-per-piece wages that allow the crews to build the day's quota as fast as they can, then leave. Meaning, if they can build the X units for the day's quota in 5 hours, they go home. If the mfr wants X units, make the crews build them in a normal 8 hour shift.
3) Adopting a more auto-industry-like dealer network that forces dealers to take a FIFO approach to service, no matter where a unit was bought.
4) Ramping up their parts departments so dealers don't wait weeks and months for parts and have them often not be the =right= parts when they finally get there.
5) Pay the dealers for warranty service in a timely manner and a =fair= price.

Notice, I never said anything about LCI products, as that's a completely different issue.

Lylle"

This is a GREAT idea but we as consumers just keep buying sub-par constructed units in record numbers so this most likely will never happen. 😞

Dan

[laknox]

justme wrote:
All mfg's have a percentage junk--- The RV industry needs a competitor like Japan that actually forced the American automobile industry build better products. Meanwhile a very detail oriented PDI is the only real defense one has to obtain an RV they will be happy with. NEVER finalize a sale until a very detail oriented PDI is completed and any problem found is corrected to expectation. Otherwise simply walk away and find another dealer. If you are unable to do a proper PDI higher some one who knows what to check for.

The industry as a whole could start by:

1) Adopting an industry-wide building code.
2) Geting off the pay-per-piece wages that allow the crews to build the day's quota as fast as they can, then leave. Meaning, if they can build the X units for the day's quota in 5 hours, they go home. If the mfr wants X units, make the crews build them in a normal 8 hour shift.
3) Adopting a more auto-industry-like dealer network that forces dealers to take a FIFO approach to service, no matter where a unit was bought.
4) Ramping up their parts departments so dealers don't wait weeks and months for parts and have them often not be the =right= parts when they finally get there.
5) Pay the dealers for warranty service in a timely manner and a =fair= price.

Notice, I never said anything about LCI products, as that's a completely different issue.

Lylle

[Mike_Stanbro]

justme wrote:
All mfg's have a percentage junk--- The RV industry needs a competitor like Japan that actually forced the American automobile industry build better products. Meanwhile a very detail oriented PDI is the only real defense one has to obtain an RV they will be happy with. NEVER finalize a sale until a very detail oriented PDI is completed and any problem found is corrected to expectation. Otherwise simply walk away and find another dealer. If you are unable to do a proper PDI higher some one who knows what to check for.

Nice words, and generally good advice, but it didn’t catch all the things wrong with the Alpine I just purchased. I did an extensive PDI and caught several things, one of which was major (read my original post and look for the part about the melted wire).

In my case, the debris under the roof was not visible until the sun came out 2 days after taking delivery. It was only then that the membrane relaxed enough that the staples, screws, and wood clips between the decking and membrane became apparent. I did an inspection of the roof and saw nothing out of the ordinary on the day of the PDI..

Also, the scuff on the vinyl floor did not occur until the slide went in and out a few times during my travels. It was then that I found the piece of light fixture hardware trapped under the slide that had rattled loose during transport from the factory to the dealer. More parts rattled loose on my travels. Everything on that light fixture needs to have thread locked applied at the factory. I saw at least two other Alpines on dealer lots when I was shopping around that had pieces missing from that light fixture. So, this is a recurring issue and should be caught by feedback from the dealers and customers. The notion of “continuous improvement” seems to be lost on Keystone.

Oh, and then there was the split hydraulic hose snd broken ceiling fan blade that occurred on the trip to/from the factory to show them the issues with the roof. I rate those failures as “infant mortality” as opposed to poor QA, but when combined with the other stuff, it makes my new-owner experience rather dismal.

Read the horror story in the Toy Hauler forum regarding the issues underneath the frame of a Keystone product that no PDI would ever catch.

So, while an extensive PDI is well advised, it is not going to catch serious problems with the structure and integrity of the unit. Only the factory can ensure that things beneath covered areas are well built. How many poor plumbing or electrical jobs can be found during a PDI? Bad welds on the frame or superstructure? What about the screws with their heads twisted off that get glued down with RTV just to look OK? I have found MANY of those in the five RVs that I have owned, including this new Alpine.

Just to be clear, my major gripe about this new Alpine is the debris under the roof membrane. I plan to install solar panels and a satellite antenna. Walking around on the roof during installation and every few months to clean the solar panels is going to do irreparable damage. I wanted Keystone to replace the roof. I towed the trailer to the factory to show them how bad it was. They said it was “acceptable quality” and even state in their owner’s manual that staples, screws, and wood chips under the membrane is a “normal part of the manufacturing process”. Sorry, but that is **** construction. Not cleaning off the roof before laying down the membrane is just so wrong I can’t imagine how anyone could allow it. I would be embarrassed to be a worker at Keystone and operate under those principles.

[phillyg]

evergladesgator wrote:
Well, this kills my idea of a Montana purchase.

Don't despair. There are much worse. My FR Wildcat was one of them. My Montana has been good to above average IMHO.

[Me_Again]

justme wrote:
All mfg's have a percentage junk--- The RV industry needs a competitor like Japan that actually forced the American automobile industry build better products. Meanwhile a very detail oriented PDI is the only real defense one has to obtain an RV they will be happy with. NEVER finalize a sale until a very detail oriented PDI is completed and any problem found is corrected to expectation. Otherwise simply walk away and find another dealer. If you are unable to do a proper PDI higher some one who knows what to check for.

The Canadians build several products in the RV field that were much better than Americans. People did not want to pay the price. Or just ask Excel, Carriage, Hitchhiker and a few other American higher end builders. Oh, wait! You can not ask them as they are gone.

[evergladesgator]

Well, this kills my idea of a Montana purchase.