Class C bashing

[udp8]

Hi folks.

I have been shopping for a new rig and was looking primarily at truck campers due to the fact that I want 4wd. But I see there are some 4x4 class C out there (and Quigley can convert many others), so I took a look at class C... only to be surprised at smaller capacities and seemingly less features yet longer length... and no cost savings to justify.

I posted a thread in the TC forum, but thought maybe I should ask over here to see if someone can tell me what I'm missing. As I put it on that other thread:

"Why, with the more uninhibited space available to class C designers (no truck bed in the way), why don't they make class C with the amount and size of amenities and features anywhere near a TC? Then if you add the 4x4 requirement, the options become far, far fewer. And the cost doesn't turn out to be better, either... Why would I pay more and get less LPG capacity, more awkward dinette, smaller water tanks (not in heated basement), no slideouts, smaller refrigerator, and have to fold my (smaller) bed down every day? Not to mention to come close in a class C you have to go quite a bit longer length-wise. It doesn't add up to me."

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27946736/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1

Maybe the subject line of that thread is inflammatory to some, but the intention is just to understand, and perhaps to express my surprise at what class C rigs seem to offer. And I'd love to be re-educated if I'm missing something.

Looking for honest opinions and sound reasoning. If you like what you have despite that it might not compare to a TC, no offense and happy traveling to you!

[VA-Apraisr]

The 4x4 photo is mine. 28ft C on E450 V10 Ford chassis. Was converted by Quigley 4x4 including new front axle, raised height 2-3", gear change to rear, transfer case, and upgraded shocks. Total $10k. Best decision and money spent. Mine is mostly beach use and minor creek crossing in WV. Put 65k miles since conversion and no issues. You can google search for used units.

[pnichols]

udp8 wrote:
Agreed, many people pile top-of-the-line TCs on 3-series trucks that look like they are ready to tip backward. Of course, one is free to buy a 4-series instead. But what you cannot get with most hard-side TCs is such low overall height and associated center of gravity, so C class wins that for sure.

A fully loaded small Class C probably has a much lower center of gravity than a fully loaded truck camper. i.e. My Class C has it's 18 gallon propane tank and Onan generator way down low - even with, to slightly below, the Ford's frame - not up on the bed of a truck as in a TC. Our grey and black tanks hang from the bottom of the coach floor down in between the Ford's frame - not up on the bed of a truck as in a TC. Five of our seven steel enclosed and carpeted exterior storage compartments start at the Ford frame height and extend downward to end slightly below frame member bottom edge. This keeps the weight of stuff in these compartments down low, unlike the higher up storage bins of a TC.

udp8 wrote:
I'm not sure I buy that there would be as much difference if a TC owner chose similar engine, differential ratio and whatnot - except that a TC is normally much heavier, which is another plus for class C.

A TC is normally much heavier?? Our Class C weighs in at 11,800 lbs., partially loaded. A main difference between us and a lot of TCs is our weight is carried by a 1 1/4 ton chassis rated for 14,050 lbs., which is a healthy margin for it's springs, brakes, and cooling to deal with. Our weight is also carried by rear duals, which provide for a nice wide footing for great lateral stability on side-slopes and in highway crosswinds - unlike 3/4 ton SRW pickups and some special order SRW ton pickups.

udp8 wrote:
The 811 has the same or better water capacity and it gets much larger with the bigger models.

I think there's about 8 gallons in a 30lb propane tank, so that capacity is close but a win for your class C, which I hadn't seen before - for instance, the 24' Phoenix Cruiser I was looking at only carries 42lb. Tiger's monster Siberian only carries 50lb. Is yours unusual?

But does the 811 or bigger models have two full width dinette seats completely available for storage of a whole potload more water if so desired (instead of rocks .. as in our case) to use the storage that way? ... and does the truck chassis carrying the 811 or bigger models have enough payload margin to deal with the 60-80 more gallons that could fit under the seats if they had the room?

Our 18 gallon Itasca propane tank is/was offered on a lot of Winnebago Class C motorhomes. Derating 18 gallons for the expansion fill limit gives us around 60 lbs. of propane on board for the cooktop, oven, refrigerator, and furnace. The generator is fed from the 55 gallon V10 engine's tank.

udp8 wrote:
It's definitely nice to be able to use truck climate controls to affect the living quarters! From other responses, I've started to gather that a big factor for many people is the sense of space a class C gives you, while TCs can feel more cramped. I can understand that, but I haven't been seeing strictly money-to-specifications comparisons go the way of the class C. Smaller refrigerator is another item.

We once were rockhounding out in the middle of nowhere in the Texas Panhandle during a scorching August. The DW came close to a heat stroke. We hurried back to the Itasca and turned on both the coach A/C and the cab A/C to cool down the whole rig in short order ... to take the red out of her face and enjoy a comfortable lunch in outside temperatures not fit for man nor beast. Can one do that with a TC?

udp8 wrote:
On the contrary, I've been seeing class C floorplans where you might have two beds, but they always have to fold out. Or you have a bed in the cabover, but it's pretty small. Most TCs have large always-ready beds in addition to at least one fold-out. But it does sound like you have a lot in your short class C, so you've got my interest piqued.

One of our two queen size beds is always available. The other queen size bed in the cabover can be left in place always available or quickly folded up - one half of it onto the other half. Neither fully set up bed impacts the seating for seven more people - or nine more people counting the cab seats. What TC offers that?

udp8 wrote:
You do know that many TCs have a generator or space to add one, right? Given, you hardly ever see diesel generators - only LPG ones (I think?). Although I think most TCs have refrigerators that run on propane and class C don't seem to make that a common option(?).

I wouldn't have a diesel truck under a TC if I had a TC. The Ford V10 has been superb and pulls up steep highway grades right along with all TC's I have run beside ... horsepower is horsepower and that is ultimately where the power to do work is coming from. Many gears or long crankshaft arm lengths convert that horsepower into torque on a drive axle. That being said, the V10 does take high RPM to deliver the same torque to an axle that a like-horsepower diesel does at low RPM. The Ford V10 can also reliabily be idled for hours without engine damage to ultra-quietly charge batteries, heat the coach volume, or cool the coach volume.

Given that our Ford gas engine's tank is 55 gallons, the logical thing to have is a built-in generator fed from it. I also carry another portable generator for 120V AC backup and ultra-low noise (54dB at full speed) low power needs. How many TCs have room for a couple of generators?

udp8 wrote:
Now you really have me scratching my head! Storage in class C has been baffling me, as it seemed obvious that it should have much more but I wasn't seeing that was the case. Maybe I was mistaken or wasn't looking at the right class C. Definitely going to look at Itasca right now. But please do tell, WHERE do you fit all this?!?

Our Class C has seven (7) exterior storage cabinets, two completely available dinette under-seat cabinets, areas at the head and foot of the cabover queen size bed, an area in the corner behind the coach lounge seat, and a bunch of interior cabinets. All exterior storage cabinets are lockable, are made from steel, and have carpeted floors. "Secret" areas in the interior I also utilize are in behind and under interior cabinet drawers. You can carry such things as spare parts and extra galley water filters in there - plus maybe a small safe for valuables. These areas are NEVER mentioned in manufacturers' advertizing hype for their motorhomes!

Good luck with your research. I refuse to accept that the TC, TT, and 5'er folks are the only ones that can have fun!! 😉

[pnichols]

There is one issue when converting a 2WD Class C into 4WD Class C ... that unfortunately there is no practical way around ... and most 4X4 pickups suffer from it, too.

That is the (excessive) raised center of gravity that one winds up with because of having to lift the body up high in order to gain clearance for the front differential/drive line and to gain fender clearance for large diameter tires. Notice how much higher off the ground Class C's coach is in the small photo above. It is possible, engineering-wise, to get around this but the cost would be prohibitive (for example the low profile - but high ground clearance - military version of the Hummer).

Ford made a "low profile" 4X4 pickup for a short while decades ago. I rode in one on a hunting trip and you could not tell by looking at it that it was a 4X4. It was compact and as low to the ground as was possible ... controlled solely by he diameter of the tires one put on it. We took it fully chained up in the winter into the High Uintas in snow so deep that it was pushing up over the hood! "High body height" is counter to one important parameter in a 4X4 whether it be a Class C or an offroad pickup ... a low center of gravity .... while at the same time maintaining as high drive line and suspension component ground clearances as possible.

We installed larger diameter tires, than what came stock on it, on our Class C to gain just a bit more drive line and suspension component ground clearances for off-highway use. The lower rear differential gear ratio of the E450 more than offsets any torque-to-the-ground loss from the larger diameter tires.

[rockhillmanor]

This is picture of a forum members 4x4. Sorry don't have the link to the thread.

[Snowman9000]

Look at Tiger RV's.

[EMD360]

I certainly like dreaming about a TC for our older 4x4 pickup. Resale is pretty high on those Arctic Fox units and they don't have a motor attached!
Cab over beds are usually queen sized but not king as some TC's might be--although most have cabinets on the sides and smaller queen sized beds about the same as a C. TC's tend to have dinettes that fold into beds but dinettes in both types are always shorter than a full size bed. I haven't see many models with fold out type of beds. We can connect our jack knife couch and the dinette bed and sleep a crew of kids and their parents while still getting to the cabover for the grandparents.
We have camped mostly off road in AZ where the roads are dirt and relatively passable, but in Colorado we couldn't get into some of the narrow rough canyons where camping is allowed. We have more exploring to do in the Colorado federal forests.
Here are the specs on our 22e and the larger 24 ft. models from 2003.

May not compare to today's models. If you don't like 27 gal fresh water you won't like 30 plus the 6 in the water heater. We seldom run out in a week but we don't do much in the way of showering.
4x4 class C's are very rare and very expensive. Gary Haupt had his c converted for $15,000 or so. I just saw one for sale in Flagstaff for $49,000 about the size and age of ours. Surely someone prefers a Class C 4x4 to a TC if they can price it that high.
I have seen 4x4 Lazy Daze for sale too, and of course you can get the Tiger vehicles Tiger RV site if money is no object. So a TC and 4x4 truck seems more maneuverable than a C for sure and if that is the way you want to camp, seems that you can find a TC with specs that match or exceed a C.
Have Fun!

[pnichols]

Here's a link to the 2005 Itasca line brochure showing our Class C. Take a look at the floorplan (Page 5), the specifications/features (Pages 7-12), and the photos (to see the crowned - not flat - one piece fiberglass roof with rolled edges all the way along each side) of our 24V model that Winnebago no longer offers. They offered the 24V floorplan up until recently, but at a lower construction and fitment level than they did back then. About the last year they offered the 24V quality level of what we have was in their 2006 "Outlook" line. After that, I don't feel that their 24V floorplans were as well outfitted and constructed. Ours is on the optional E450 chassis and is a non-slide - the two things we wanted for offroad use when rockhounding in remote places:

http://media.goitasca.com/models/globalElements/brochure/previous-models/2005/itasca/05-Spirit-bro.p...

[udp8]

Hmm, just looked at Itasca's current 24' Viva, looks to be their smallest model. The thing looks amazing inside, really tempting... until I saw the capacities. 27 gal fresh water is a deal-breaker I think. LPG is smaller than yours, too. pnichols, what Itasca do you have? Where can I look at a spec sheet for it?

Edit: pauldub, good clarifications, thanks very much!

[pauldub]

Just for clarification, nearly every class C ever built has had a fridge that can run on propane or 110V and some will run on 12V also... just like a TC. If you compare a TC with a propane genny versus a C with a gasoline powered genny, the TC's genny will burn through the propane pretty fast. This means that if you want to run a TC genny for air conditioning, you would like to have far more propane capacity than you would every need with a C. The way around this for a TC is to use a portable genny running on gasoline but then you need to store it and you might need two of them to run AC. If you consider the furnace, a TC furnace will need less propane than a C simply because there's a lot less space to heat. Sadly, every RV choice has its pros and cons and you have to pick what works for your style of travel and camping.

[udp8]

pnichols wrote:
We take our small-but-fully-loaded 24 foot Itasca Class C two-wheel drive offroad in the desert (in dry weather) all the time - albeit driving carefully and slowly when we do.

Here's some of my thoughts regarding our Class C as compared to a truck camper:

pnichols, thanks for the really well thought-out post. This is useful information. I think you misunderstand some things that have become common in TCs, so I'll offer some evidence to the contrary below, but I am impressed with some of the points you make and am interested to learn more.

pnichols wrote:
- It's on Ford's ton-and-a-quarter E450 chassis ... heavier duty than most of the common everyday truck campers ... including of course the dually ton chassis "350/3500" class pickups under many truck campers.

- Since a Class C coach structure is mounted right down onto the truck frame, the center of gravity of a properly built Class C can wind up lower than that of a truck camper. This is of course an advantage for off-highway use.

- Due to our small Class C being on this chassis ... we enjoy the ruggedness, added frame stiffness, and reliability of "chassis overkill". Chassis overkill provides such advantages as minimum chassis twist under the coach on rutted roads, more than adequate brakes, more than adequate engine/transmission cooling, and more than adequate towing/pulling power due to a low differential gear ratio. This low differential ratio is especially nice for very slow speed travel offroad without resorting to torque conversion (heat generation) within the transmission - as we sometimes travel at only 7-10 MPH in certain offroad settings.

- We can carry "any amount of added creature comforts we want", weight-wise, because the motorhome with full tanks is still over 2200 lbs. lighter than the chassis maximum. How many truck campers have a margin this high?

Agreed, many people pile top-of-the-line TCs on 3-series trucks that look like they are ready to tip backward. Of course, one is free to buy a 4-series instead. But what you cannot get with most hard-side TCs is such low overall height and associated center of gravity, so C class wins that for sure.

I'm not sure I buy that there would be as much difference if a TC owner chose similar engine, differential ratio and whatnot - except that a TC is normally much heavier, which is another plus for class C.

That said, I'm still leaning toward a TC (large one with a 4-series truck or smaller TC with 3-series still seems to compete with class C on some important points below)...

pnichols wrote:
- Our water supply is 45 gallons. A lot of TC's don't have anywhere near this gallon capacity.

- Our grey water tank is 29 gallons, and it's contents can be off-loaded into the black water tank in case it fills faster than the black tank. A lot of TC's don't have anywhere near this gallon capacity in their grey water tank.

- Our black water tank is 39 gallons. A lot of TC's don't have anywhere near this gallon capacity.

- Our built-in propane tank capacity is 18 gallons. Most TC's don't have anywhere near this gallon capacity.

These claims are all wrong from what I have seen. Take a look at even the smallest Arctic Fox TC (the 811 at the bottom of the page) here:

http://www.truckcampermagazine.com/truck-camper-buyers-guide/arctic-fox-camper


The 811 has the same or better water capacity and it gets much larger with the bigger models.

I think there's about 8 gallons in a 30lb propane tank, so that capacity is close but a win for your class C, which I hadn't seen before - for instance, the 24' Phoenix Cruiser I was looking at only carries 42lb. Tiger's monster Siberian only carries 50lb. Is yours unusual?

pnichols wrote:
- Our shower roof has room to spare above my 6'2" frame. How many truck campers can provide this?

- Our air conditioner is adequate for any desert heat and can be powered by a built-in generator. How many truck campers are set up like this?

- Our black and grey water tanks are 12 volt heated for drycamping in cold weather. Keeping them warm via the propane furnace is not required.

- Our fresh water tank is contained within the coach interior so it cannot freeze in cold weather if the propane furnace is used during cold weather.

- We can get to the coach area from the cab without leaving the vehicle. How many truck campers can do this?

- Because of the above, when combined with our relative small coach area volume, the Ford cab air conditioning and heating can also handle the entire coach volume. This capability backs up the coach's more than adequate air conditioner and propane furnace.

I think some things like if/how water tanks are kept from freezing can get subjective, but I'm very encouraged to hear there are class C with winter capabilities like that.

It's definitely nice to be able to use truck climate controls to affect the living quarters! From other responses, I've started to gather that a big factor for many people is the sense of space a class C gives you, while TCs can feel more cramped. I can understand that, but I haven't been seeing strictly money-to-specifications comparisons go the way of the class C. Smaller refrigerator is another item.

pnichols wrote:
- When we get to our campsite, we have two queen size beds and one full size bed available (we normally use both queen size beds for sleepiing). How many TC's have this?

On the contrary, I've been seeing class C floorplans where you might have two beds, but they always have to fold out. Or you have a bed in the cabover, but it's pretty small. Most TCs have large always-ready beds in addition to at least one fold-out. But it does sound like you have a lot in your short class C, so you've got my interest piqued.

pnichols wrote:
- The main engine alternator has heavy cabling going to the coach batteries so these batteries can be charged up very quickly and fully when traveling or while only idling the main engine. Not all truck campers can do this.

Definitely a crucial win for class C in my opinion.

pnichols wrote:
- Our main built-in generator can power "every need, if required", so not even a propane system failure could cause us to have to abort a camping trip.

- Since the built-in generator draws from the main 55 gallon fuel tank, we could go a few days with no propane fuel and/or no sun (for solar). Only certain diesel TC's with diesel marine appliances fed from the main truck fuel tank can do this for any length of time.

You do know that many TCs have a generator or space to add one, right? Given, you hardly ever see diesel generators - only LPG ones (I think?). Although I think most TCs have refrigerators that run on propane and class C don't seem to make that a common option(?).

pnichols wrote:
- In addition to the partial list of advantages listed above, we of course also have the raw storage room for a whole bunch of safety, convenience, and backup reliability items that truck camper users can only dream of: Such as the room to carry along a portable generator to back up the built-in generator and the room to carry two full size lounge chairs, four regular chairs, an outside table, two chair side-tables, a full size shovel, an outside dog pen, fishing gear, a full power air compressor, a gas BBQ, a gas burner to backup the galley cooktop, an oven, a microwave, a well-stocked tool box, 100 feet of fresh water hose, 25 feet of sewer hose, etc., etc.. We carry all of this and more without attaching anything to the outside roof ladder, without piling anything into the shower enclosure, and without piling anything onto the beds when traveling

Now you really have me scratching my head! 🙂 Storage in class C has been baffling me, as it seemed obvious that it should have much more but I wasn't seeing that was the case. Maybe I was mistaken or wasn't looking at the right class C. Definitely going to look at Itasca right now. But please do tell, WHERE do you fit all this?!?

Again, excellent post, thank you!

[WesternHorizon]

East Fork of the San Juan River near Pagosa Springs this summer showed me graphically the pros/cons of the various RV types. The road goes from pavement to 4x4 over a few miles.

Down low were the Class As and large Class Cs.

Further up the 24 foot Class C's like me had to stop because of gullies without culverts that presented too much approach and departure angle. I rode my dirt bike (carried on a hitch rack so I can back the RV up) and mountain bike from this point forward. Meanwhile I had the amenities of a C.

TC's may be able to get all the way over Elwood Pass, but it is very rough for anything but small 4x4s and my dirt bike. I would think bedrock steps are a bit much for a TC.

And the RV's furthest up? Sizable TTs and toy haulers pulled by big 4X4 pickups. Some of the most palatial were WAY up the valley past fords and serious gullies.

I like the ability to stealth camp in my C, but I have to give the TTs / TH's a nod for their terrain versatility.

[Dakzuki]

valhalla360 wrote:

Dakzuki wrote:

newman fulltimer wrote:
i would not take a class c offroading i can just imagine the frame flex and all the breakage

Pickup frames flex just as much. A C with comparable dimensions to a truck camper/truck combo should be just as capable.

The difference is the TC is no bolted to the frame and the tie downs have a little flex allowing them to better absorb that twisting. Plus the base of the truck camper is about half the width of a MH, so a 5 degree frame twist puts double the movement on the outside of the MH shell.

I was talking comparable size. My TC stayed flat on the bed and moved with the truck when tied down. The tie downs gave a preload but when the truck twisted so did the camper. I agree that the amount of "house" that is interfaced to the chassis is less but on the flip side the overhead on th etruck camper is cantelevered out. Many Cs have it integrated into the cab structure (not all).

[chinook440]

quote

"Why, with the more uninhibited space available to class C designers (no truck bed in the way), why don't they make class C with the amount and size of amenities and features anywhere near a TC? "




Exactly what amenities and features are you referring to ???

You must be comparing the biggest multi-slide truck-campers to the shortest of the class c,s with no slides...... SMH

[pnichols]

We take our small-but-fully-loaded 24 foot Itasca Class C two-wheel drive offroad in the desert (in dry weather) all the time - albeit driving carefully and slowly when we do.

Here's some of my thoughts regarding our Class C as compared to a truck camper:

- It's on Ford's ton-and-a-quarter E450 chassis ... heavier duty than most of the common everyday truck campers ... including of course the dually ton chassis "350/3500" class pickups under many truck campers.

- Since a Class C coach structure is mounted right down onto the truck frame, the center of gravity of a properly built Class C can wind up lower than that of a truck camper. This is of course an advantage for off-highway use.

- Due to our small Class C being on this chassis ... we enjoy the ruggedness, added frame stiffness, and reliability of "chassis overkill". Chassis overkill provides such advantages as minimum chassis twist under the coach on rutted roads, more than adequate brakes, more than adequate engine/transmission cooling, and more than adequate towing/pulling power due to a low differential gear ratio. This low differential ratio is especially nice for very slow speed travel offroad without resorting to torque conversion (heat generation) within the transmission - as we sometimes travel at only 7-10 MPH in certain offroad settings.

- We can carry "any amount of added creature comforts we want", weight-wise, because the motorhome with full tanks is still over 2200 lbs. lighter than the chassis maximum. How many truck campers have a margin this high?

- Our water supply is 45 gallons. A lot of TC's don't have anywhere near this gallon capacity.

- Our grey water tank is 29 gallons, and it's contents can be off-loaded into the black water tank in case it fills faster than the black tank. A lot of TC's don't have anywhere near this gallon capacity in their grey water tank.

- Our black water tank is 39 gallons. A lot of TC's don't have anywhere near this gallon capacity.

- Our built-in propane tank capacity is 18 gallons. Most TC's don't have anywhere near this gallon capacity.

- Our shower roof has room to spare above my 6'2" frame. How many truck campers can provide this?

- Our air conditioner is adequate for any desert heat and can be powered by a built-in generator. How many truck campers are set up like this?

- Our black and grey water tanks are 12 volt heated for drycamping in cold weather. Keeping them warm via the propane furnace is not required.

- Our fresh water tank is contained within the coach interior so it cannot freeze in cold weather if the propane furnace is used during cold weather.

- We can get to the coach area from the cab without leaving the vehicle. How many truck campers can do this?

- Because of the above, when combined with our relative small coach area volume, the Ford cab air conditioning and heating can also handle the entire coach volume. This capability backs up the coach's more than adequate air conditioner and propane furnace.

- When we get to our campsite, we have two queen size beds and one full size bed available (we normally use both queen size beds for sleepiing). How many TC's have this?

- The main engine alternator has heavy cabling going to the coach batteries so these batteries can be charged up very quickly and fully when traveling or while only idling the main engine. Not all truck campers can do this.

- Our main built-in generator can power "every need, if required", so not even a propane system failure could cause us to have to abort a camping trip.

- Since the built-in generator draws from the main 55 gallon fuel tank, we could go a few days with no propane fuel and/or no sun (for solar). Only certain diesel TC's with diesel marine appliances fed from the main truck fuel tank can do this for any length of time.

- In addition to the partial list of advantages listed above, we of course also have the raw storage room for a whole bunch of safety, convenience, and backup reliability items that truck camper users can only dream of: Such as the room to carry along a portable generator to back up the built-in generator and the room to carry two full size lounge chairs, four regular chairs, an outside table, two chair side-tables, a full size shovel, an outside dog pen, fishing gear, a full power air compressor, a gas BBQ, a gas burner to backup the galley cooktop, an oven, a microwave, a well-stocked tool box, 100 feet of fresh water hose, 25 feet of sewer hose, etc., etc.. We carry all of this and more without attaching anything to the outside roof ladder, without piling anything into the shower enclosure, and without piling anything onto the beds when traveling.

If one was to combine all of the above in a small Class C with the addition of four wheel drive, then I would be hard put to ever prefer a truck camper over it.

Oh, BTW, I almost forgot a potential BIG ADVANTAGE of a small Class C over a truck camper: Way less number of steps to get up into it for some of us with bad knees and/or other leg or back issues!!!