Ev charging in camps expectation of availability, cost

[SDcampowneroper]

Evs in our region are primarily the few commuters or as tows behind MHs to use as tour the area vehicles. Commuters recharge at home maybe at work, though I do not know of any companies here that offer that service yet,
What I want you to post is as you travel with an EV towed, perhaps someday as a tow, how do you expect camp power supplies to be equal to charging your vehicle. An argument that EVs popularity growth will be met equally by growth in power generation and distribution has merit in metropolitan areas with steady power use curves. where the increase is anticipated. Its not so well defined in areas with regional high power use times,

Camps built yesterday did not -could not - put in the infrastructure to meet such massive electrical loads that serving the rvs and EV recharging. Where once 4/0 al cabling served by a 200a main to x # 50a rv sites, will quickly by overloaded with only a couple of recharging vehicles.
How is an existing camp to meet that load, pass the costs on?
How is a new camp to design for that potentiality, Pass the costs on?


I do not have a dog in this fight, we sold our camp last year and retired.

[Lantley]

My local Walmart installed charging stations. Granted Wal Mart has deep pockets but in the grand scheme of things someone at Walmart decided it was beneficial to attract EV's to their stores.

[Reisender]

Timmo! wrote:
LOL, my first thought is post a simple "No" sign, but I am so tired of being "nanny-ized" (don't do this, can't do that, you must make accommodations for me...)

Simple NO sign: "CHARGING OF EV IS NOT PERMITTED AT CAMPSITE"

But that would not be "inclusive".

Sure. That would work. But of course the idea behind a business is to attract clients. Finding away to accommodate them might be more lucrative. Has always worked for us.

I still think someone will develop a simple app that promotes those campgrounds that want EVRV clients. That way those camp ground operators that don’t want to have anything to do with modernizing don’t have to be bothered with it and those who want new clientele can get their invitation out there. This is working really well for tge hotel industry. We actually use two such apps. One for chihuahua friendly hotels and one for hotels with EV charging facilities. Makes it easy.

[valhalla360]

SDcampowneroperator wrote:
DrewE makes a valid point . I know when our electrical engineer designed the spur expansion wiring in our park, it was to nec code, a maximum of x units / 200a breaker. The 400a main to feed 3 200a mains for the expansion and a 200a sub( that used to be the main) were served by a 50kw ( is that the right term? ) transformer. 3 years ago, our power co. came to upgrade the transformer to a 75 because peak loads on it had been detected to 83 kv,
In the process, we discovered the 400a meter had burned into its contacts so it was necessary to step up to 600a ct metering, trench and place more cabling to reduce load on the original service panel. It iwas solely attribututed to the greater demand for larger rigs. Even that upgrape may be overwhelmed with a couple of EVs recharging.

Under SD law we could not pass those costs on for infrastructure, a landlord can only pass the actual cost /kw paid to utility, therefore infrastructure costs to site can only be recouped by raising site fee. Not fair to non users of high utility.

Any chance you have a rough idea what all that work cost...might give people an idea of how big of an issue this is.

One park we stay at has marginal power for hot summer days...The first issue is simply not having a big enough supply from the power company. The owner grumbles that it's $50k just to bring in power to the park. Actually upgrading the internal park systems would be even more.

[Timmo_]

LOL, my first thought is post a simple "No" sign, but I am so tired of being "nanny-ized" (don't do this, can't do that, you must make accommodations for me...)

Simple NO sign: "CHARGING OF EV IS NOT PERMITTED AT CAMPSITE"

But that would not be "inclusive".

[pianotuna]

Timmo! wrote:
Perhaps the best answer is to match the value of services provided with the fees charged, a graduated fee schedule similar to this--

Daily Site Fees:
Tent campers (15 amp service): $25/day
Smaller RVs (30 amp): $35/day
Larger RVs (50 amp): $40/day
Sites charging EVs (30 and 50 amp sites only): $100/day
Penalty for charging EVs without approval: $200/day

The "jump" in price from 30 amp (2880 watts continuous) and 50 amp (9600 watts continuous) is not great enough. If (for round figures) it costs $0.14 per kwh, then a 30 amp may consume about 69 kwh or $9.66, where as the 50 amp may consume 230 kwh or $32.20 per 24 hour period.

I do know that in the worst of the winter I was consuming 130 kwh per day.

[time2roll]

ronharmless wrote:

Reisender wrote:
Good reason for adding a few dedicated J1772 units on dedicated circuits not on any loop.

Yup, that is certainly the answer. Only one problem - that $40 your willing to pay ain't going to incentivize a RV park to undertake such an endevour.

That will depend on how many sites are vacant and how many EVs are looking to charge.

[wapiticountry]

Reisender wrote:

ronharmless wrote:

Reisender wrote:
Good reason for adding a few dedicated J1772 units on dedicated circuits not on any loop.

Yup, that is certainly the answer. Only one problem - that $40 your willing to pay ain't going to incentivize a RV park to undertake such an endevour.

Yep. And only the park operator can decide if it’s worth it. It won’t be important for a 3 or 4 years yet. Electric half tons are just starting to come out this year. But eventually it will just be a decision on wether it’s worth it to provide a service that will attract clientele or lose them to the competition. Hotels had to and are still having to make that decision. For most EVers it’s a binary decision when they check the website or phone the hotel. Do they have EV charging facilities. If not, move on. In the case of hotels it’s even easier. There is an APP called EV hotels. I’m sure that will happen for campgrounds too.

Either way, it will always be up to the operator.

At least for the foreseeable future EV charging will be an amenity that parks will decide whether the costs and additional management is a net positive at the end of the day. No different than a pool, a playground or a dog park. For some that amenity is a necessity, for others completely unimportant. Fact is no business can please everyone and RV owners who need EV charging will be a niche market many parks will not seek to serve in over the next several years.

[Reisender]

Timmo! wrote:
Perhaps the best answer is to match the value of services provided with the fees charged, a graduated fee schedule similar to this--

Daily Site Fees:
Tent campers (15 amp service): $25/day
Smaller RVs (30 amp): $35/day
Larger RVs (50 amp): $40/day
Sites charging EVs (30 and 50 amp sites only): $100/day
Penalty for charging EVs without approval: $200/day

You see, in the legal world there are 4 basic requirements for most commercial transactions:
1. Offer (signage or other posting of the proprietor's fee schedule).
2. Acceptance (customer accepts proprietor's terms for the goods and services)
3. Delivery (customer parks rig in assigned spot)
4. Consideration (customer pays for the agreed goods and services).

Neither party can force unilateral changes on the other. Customer cannot force the proprietor to charge $10/night for a $25/day site...the proprietor cannot force the customer to pay $100/day for a $25/day site).

This allows customers to shop with their feet. Don't like the fees, then move along.

Yah, as an EVer that would work for me. The rate of charge for an EV is controllable by the driver. Split the available current up as you see fit. The coach runs fine off solar as long as AC is not needed. Send 32 amps to the EV for the night and start the day with a decent charge.

[Timmo_]

Perhaps the best answer is to match the value of services provided with the fees charged, a graduated fee schedule similar to this--

Daily Site Fees:
Tent campers (15 amp service): $25/day
Smaller RVs (30 amp): $35/day
Larger RVs (50 amp): $40/day
Sites charging EVs (30 and 50 amp sites only): $100/day
Penalty for charging EVs without approval: $200/day

You see, in the legal world there are 4 basic requirements for most commercial transactions:
1. Offer (signage or other posting of the proprietor's fee schedule).
2. Acceptance (customer accepts proprietor's terms for the goods and services)
3. Delivery (customer parks rig in assigned spot)
4. Consideration (customer pays for the agreed goods and services).

Neither party can force unilateral changes on the other. Customer cannot force the proprietor to charge $10/night for a $25/day site...the proprietor cannot force the customer to pay $100/day for a $25/day site).

This allows customers to shop with their feet. Don't like the fees, then move along.

[Reisender]

ronharmless wrote:

Reisender wrote:
Good reason for adding a few dedicated J1772 units on dedicated circuits not on any loop.

Yup, that is certainly the answer. Only one problem - that $40 your willing to pay ain't going to incentivize a RV park to undertake such an endevour.

Yep. And only the park operator can decide if it’s worth it. It won’t be important for a 3 or 4 years yet. Electric half tons are just starting to come out this year. But eventually it will just be a decision on wether it’s worth it to provide a service that will attract clientele or lose them to the competition. Hotels had to and are still having to make that decision. For most EVers it’s a binary decision when they check the website or phone the hotel. Do they have EV charging facilities. If not, move on. In the case of hotels it’s even easier. There is an APP called EV hotels. I’m sure that will happen for campgrounds too.

Either way, it will always be up to the operator.

[ronharmless]

Reisender wrote:
Good reason for adding a few dedicated J1772 units on dedicated circuits not on any loop.

Yup, that is certainly the answer. Only one problem - that $40 your willing to pay ain't going to incentivize a RV park to undertake such an endevour.

[time2roll]

Might be time to just replace those 50a breakers with 40 amp 😉

[SDcampowneroper]

DrewE wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

The current electrical code has 7 50 amp, on ONE measly 200 amp breaker. Since 50 amp is "rv speak" each one of the 7 is actually 100 amps. The code relies on not all air conditioners starting at once.

So just two pedestals in heavy use may "max out" the 200 amp circuit, even if it is "looped".

The 200A breaker is a two-pole, 240V breaker, so it's 200A per leg--just as the 50A electric supply is 50A, 120/240V split phase, with 50A per leg. Two fully-utilized 50A connections would not max out the 200A circuit, but rather load it to half capacity. Whether the pedestals are installed in a ring or a spur topology is immaterial here.

The general point that the minimum requirements for RV park electrical installations are somewhat outdated and undersized is entirely valid. Adding EV charging to any great extent will exacerbate that in many parks unless significant infrastructure upgrades are also performed.

DrewE makes a valid point . I know when our electrical engineer designed the spur expansion wiring in our park, it was to nec code, a maximum of x units / 200a breaker. The 400a main to feed 3 200a mains for the expansion and a 200a sub( that used to be the main) were served by a 50kw ( is that the right term? ) transformer. 3 years ago, our power co. came to upgrade the transformer to a 75 because peak loads on it had been detected to 83 kv,
In the process, we discovered the 400a meter had burned into its contacts so it was necessary to step up to 600a ct metering, trench and place more cabling to reduce load on the original service panel. It iwas solely attribututed to the greater demand for larger rigs. Even that upgrape may be overwhelmed with a couple of EVs recharging.

Under SD law we could not pass those costs on for infrastructure, a landlord can only pass the actual cost /kw paid to utility, therefore infrastructure costs to site can only be recouped by raising site fee. Not fair to non users of high utility.

[Reisender]

wapiticountry wrote:

msmith1.wa wrote:
Let me start this off by stating I own an EV, but it is not used by us when we RV, because we use a truck and trailer.

Why is it incumbent on the park to provide charging stations?

The charger that I have at my house I would call semiportable, it is kind of big, but it can be done. It plugs into the same outlet that a 50 amp RV would. I bought this version because if we were to travel with the car, some places have thus type of plug that they allow guests/customers to use for charging.

This is a big if, but if the power pedestal is wired properly it should be able to supply power to all of the plugs at their rated capacity. With appropriate adapters, when needed, both the RV and EV could be connected to the pedestal. One to the 50 and the other to the 30 if the pedestal is equipped with both a 50 and 30. If not, one to the 30 and the other to the 15.

I know this doesn't typically apply to a motorhome and toad combination, but most parks charge an extra vehicle fee. The park could just charge an EV fee in attempt to cover the added electricity use. Or the less popular option, raise the price for all sites.

All NEC code requirements take into account what is called "demand factor". What that means in simple terms is only a percentage of the available power on any circuit is used at any given time. That is why if you add up the breakers in your home panel you get a value much higher than the rating for the panel. The NEC wiring codes take into account the fact you never use all the circuits at the same time or at maximum draw. However if you were to somehow use each of those home circuits at their maximum rating you will trip the main breakers even though you didn't overload any individual branch circuit. Same with a loop of power pedestals in a RV park.
Current code allows for up to 8 50 amp RV pedestals on a 200 amp circuit. That is because the demand factor for 8 RVs on 50 amp pedestals on a loop is less than 50%. That means that at peak usage times if there are 8 RVs on that loop they will have an average draw of less than 25 Amps per each leg of that 240 volt, 50 amp pedestal (6000 Watts). The demand factor is computed using historical data of power usage by RVs. The demand factor calculations were not computed taking electrical vehicle charging into account.
A single Tesla using the Tesla 50 amp power cord draws 32 Amps per leg ( 7680 Watts) and will draw that continuously until the Tesla is charged, which could be up to 10+ hours. To put it in other words, that single Tesla charging is taking more power than the average RV consumes during peak usage times. Just like you couldn't add a 9th RV and pedestal on that 200 amp loop or run all your circuits in your house at maximum rating, you can't add EV charging without overloading the main circuit and tripping the breakers that serve the entire loop.

Good reason for adding a few dedicated J1772 units on dedicated circuits not on any loop.

[wapiticountry]

msmith1.wa wrote:
Let me start this off by stating I own an EV, but it is not used by us when we RV, because we use a truck and trailer.

Why is it incumbent on the park to provide charging stations?

The charger that I have at my house I would call semiportable, it is kind of big, but it can be done. It plugs into the same outlet that a 50 amp RV would. I bought this version because if we were to travel with the car, some places have thus type of plug that they allow guests/customers to use for charging.

This is a big if, but if the power pedestal is wired properly it should be able to supply power to all of the plugs at their rated capacity. With appropriate adapters, when needed, both the RV and EV could be connected to the pedestal. One to the 50 and the other to the 30 if the pedestal is equipped with both a 50 and 30. If not, one to the 30 and the other to the 15.

I know this doesn't typically apply to a motorhome and toad combination, but most parks charge an extra vehicle fee. The park could just charge an EV fee in attempt to cover the added electricity use. Or the less popular option, raise the price for all sites.

All NEC code requirements take into account what is called "demand factor". What that means in simple terms is only a percentage of the available power on any circuit is used at any given time. That is why if you add up the breakers in your home panel you get a value much higher than the rating for the panel. The NEC wiring codes take into account the fact you never use all the circuits at the same time or at maximum draw. However if you were to somehow use each of those home circuits at their maximum rating you will trip the main breakers even though you didn't overload any individual branch circuit. Same with a loop of power pedestals in a RV park.
Current code allows for up to 8 50 amp RV pedestals on a 200 amp circuit. That is because the demand factor for 8 RVs on 50 amp pedestals on a loop is less than 50%. That means that at peak usage times if there are 8 RVs on that loop they will have an average draw of less than 25 Amps per each leg of that 240 volt, 50 amp pedestal (6000 Watts). The demand factor is computed using historical data of power usage by RVs. The demand factor calculations were not computed taking electrical vehicle charging into account.
A single Tesla using the Tesla 50 amp power cord draws 32 Amps per leg ( 7680 Watts) and will draw that continuously until the Tesla is charged, which could be up to 10+ hours. To put it in other words, that single Tesla charging is taking more power than the average RV consumes during peak usage times. Just like you couldn't add a 9th RV and pedestal on that 200 amp loop or run all your circuits in your house at maximum rating, you can't add EV charging without overloading the main circuit and tripping the breakers that serve the entire loop.