I'm a retired salesman

[sidney]

I really enjoy this forum and have found quite a bit of valuable information... and appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge and experience.

But I have never seen so many disparaging comments stereotyping all salesmen as clueless liars and cheats.

It seems when a new poster is asking for help regarding their 1st RV purchase the first advice they receive is "don't trust the salesman", "they are all liars", "the only thing they're concerned about is their commission".

What a bunch of cynics this crowd is!!! I feel sorry for those who have such little faith in humanity.

Granted, there are less than honest people in all walks of life and occupations... you may be one of them, hence your suspicious, distrusting attitudes.

The dealer and salesman I purchased our 2011 RAM from was outstanding.

The RV dealer I'm working with to purchase our 5th wheel is also outstanding.

I didn't sell RV's, TVs, or anything associated with camping. I sold life science research equipment and I'm damn glad many of you were not my customers.

[sidney]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:

sidney wrote:


Again, my point is telling newbies "don't trust the salesman" offers very little assistance to a new RV buyer.

Isn't it more beneficial to offer advice on how to find a good salesman rather than stereotyping all salesman as shysters?

Sidney, Sidney, Sidney......:R.:R.:R

Some buyers are *NOT* riding in their first rodeo..:C

Some are..:(

Some salespersons are completely trustworthy - some dealerships are also..:C

Some are *NOT* trustworthy - they will take every advantage of the "newbies" -or anyone else- to seal a deal..:(

Unfortunately - without posting every instance of being taken to the cleaners......(here) the best general advice to newbies is:
"DON'T Trust"! !.:R

Not too many buyers check Linkedin or the salesperson's "bona fides"
before walking on the lot - then into the Closing Room - whether it's an auto or an RV dealership.

As a former salesperson, certainly *you* know the dealer profit on new trucks is $5-10K.
So, of course, YOU paid *less than* Dealer Invoice (slightly above Dealer COST) for your new truck, right?
Maybe you should offer advice to the "newbies" how to do that..:@

IMO -since you didn't sell RV's or vehicles - you are very, very naive when it comes to sales practices related to same......
but glad to hear you are happy with your purchases!:B

BTW - However, pretty sure I'm "damn glad" I didn't ever need to buy any life science research equipment from *YOU*, as it sounds like you were a salesperson hoisted by your own petard!:(
(What's new?).:R


~

"hoisted by your own petard"

Hamlet, Act III, scene 4


You're making several assumptions... and if you did ever need to deal with me as a salesman you would have been treated with courtesy and respect. Not subjected to speculative opinions of your character or intelligence.

[monkey44]

JALLEN4 wrote:

monkey44 wrote:
Vulcaneer: No doubt you made a good deal and went in there armed with good information.

But one other thing your deal illustrates, the dealer will always 'force' the buyer to "tell us your highest offer" sorta, and when you do, will always go to the "in charge guy' (of course, salesman has no authority for a deal the great) and come back with something a little higher. It never fails, and supports again what I said earlier. The salesman/manager will never tell you his lowest price, he will always make the buyer give it, and then come with a little bit higher price than you offer. Not positive, but I'd be willing to bet if you'd have walked out, you'd have gotten the price you sent in first. But, it takes walking out, and you gotta be willing to do that. You can always come back the next day ... or, wait for his call. 🙂 🙂 🙂

Yes, buyer is in charge, more or less, because you can always walk.

And giving a credit card to a salesman without a signed deal on the table? Never happen with me, but apparently it worked out for you this time. Good luck with your new one, and happy camping.

I know you are never going to give up the idea that the salesman is going to give you the lowest possible price but trust me...it just isn't going to happen. LOL

Here also is a tip from negotiating 101. As a sales manager, never accept the first offer if it is any less than MSRP. As well, never make the deal as long as the customer is still going up. Only make the deal when the customer has said absolutely no with no counter offer.

The reason I say that, 99% of customers have no idea what is a good deal and what is not. When asked, they have no clue what the dealer should make on a transaction even if they know the cost. On numerous occasions I have stood on a showroom floor and asked customers if they would pay a price for a vehicle that was at least $10,000 less than my cost. Inevitably they either want to know if that is the best I can do or tell me they already have a lower price.

I know, I know ... 🙂 🙂 we're riding the same horse here. I'm just explaining from the buyer side why we never, ever get the lowest price for any vehicle ... we can never legitimately know the costs and expenses associated with our purchase. Only the dealer knows that (probably not event he sales staff)

I believe the only real issue with most of what buyers complain about is the idea that some (not all) salesmen will give out false info to make a sale. That's simply unethical - but it seems like everyone knows it, accepts it, and sometimes get screwed or sometimes get a really good deal.

Even when it's a good deal, we probably don't know it. It's a fact of buying and selling vehicles - it would take me pages and pages of RV.net to give up all the shady deals and good deals I found myself involved in buying trucks for my company years ago, before I changed careers.

I suspect it's a minority of deals that are truly crooked, but those that are really stand out because it's one of the most expensive purchases a family ever makes. And, therefore, a buyer can really get screwed and it impacts their lives more than any other factor. It's almost impossible to recover from that - like the houses that depreciated so quickly and left families unable to refinance due to depreciation instead of appreciation like every one expected. In some cases, real estate you can sometimes wait it out, but with RV, not possible.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

sidney wrote:


Again, my point is telling newbies "don't trust the salesman" offers very little assistance to a new RV buyer.

Isn't it more beneficial to offer advice on how to find a good salesman rather than stereotyping all salesman as shysters?

Sidney, Sidney, Sidney......:R.:R.:R

Some buyers are *NOT* riding in their first rodeo..:C

Some are..:(

Some salespersons are completely trustworthy - some dealerships are also..:C

Some are *NOT* trustworthy - they will take every advantage of the "newbies" -or anyone else- to seal a deal..:(

Unfortunately - without posting every instance of being taken to the cleaners......(here) the best general advice to newbies is:
"DON'T Trust"! !.:R

Not too many buyers check Linkedin or the salesperson's "bona fides"
before walking on the lot - then into the Closing Room - whether it's an auto or an RV dealership.

As a former salesperson, certainly *you* know the dealer profit on new trucks is $5-10K.
So, of course, YOU paid *less than* Dealer Invoice (slightly above Dealer COST) for your new truck, right?
Maybe you should offer advice to the "newbies" how to do that..:@

IMO -since you didn't sell RV's or vehicles - you are very, very naive when it comes to sales practices related to same......
but glad to hear you are happy with your purchases!:B

BTW - However, pretty sure I'm "damn glad" I didn't ever need to buy any life science research equipment from *YOU*, as it sounds like you were a salesperson hoisted by your own petard!:(
(What's new?).:R


~

[Vulcaneer]

monkey44 wrote:
snip>>The salesman/manager will never tell you his lowest price, he will always make the buyer give it, and then come with a little bit higher price than you offer. Not positive, but I'd be willing to bet if you'd have walked out, you'd have gotten the price you sent in first. But, it takes walking out, and you gotta be willing to do that. You can always come back the next day ... or, wait for his call. 🙂 🙂 🙂

Yes, buyer is in charge, more or less, because you can always walk.

And giving a credit card to a salesman without a signed deal on the table? Never happen with me, but apparently it worked out for you this time. Good luck with your new one, and happy camping.

My given offer/price wasn't the highest I was prepared to pay. It was what would be the lowest price I wanted to pay to make a deal "today." My price was an out the door price. Including tax, tags. No document fee. No prep fee. No surprise after charges. He came back $600 and change higher. And that was acceptable to me.

I could have tried to beat him down to the last penny. I could have walked, and he might have called me back. Then I could have taken another few hours or most of another day to get it cheaper. Didn't need to take the time for that. I was going to finance. The extra 600 and change would have made about $2 dollars per month on my payment. What's the big deal. We wanted the trailer. I didn't expect him to play games. And I wasn't going to play games with them either. Got more important things to do.

The credit card thing? That is not a big deal. I could have written him a check too. I don't blame them for wanting proof that we were serious buyers. Dealers get there chain yanked and their time wasted every day. I was a serious buyer. I wasn't hiding anything. My time is worth something. I would rather he works on my deal than spin his wheels working with a tire kicker with no real interest in buying.

The sales manager thing? I certainly can understand why dealers do this. They don't want a sales person to know the real cost of their unit. The finance obligation the dealer has on it, since it was shipped to them. All the other costs involved with a unit on the lot. Nor the intricacies of pricing out the trade in. That is not part of the salesmans responsibility. The sales person is there to satisfy both sides of the deal. To pull buyer and seller together.

At some point the buyer needs to trust those who he chooses to deal with. When you walk into the dealer and find you cannot trust them...that is the time when you should walk away.

A dealer making a profit? Yes...I want the dealer to make a reasonable profit. Not unreasonable. But reasonable. I want him to be there when I need him again. Maybe for warranty.

There are some who will beat them down to the last penny. So they can feel they won the game. As long as I am satisfied with the deal and I get what I want, that is all that counts for me.

[JALLEN4]

monkey44 wrote:
Vulcaneer: No doubt you made a good deal and went in there armed with good information.

But one other thing your deal illustrates, the dealer will always 'force' the buyer to "tell us your highest offer" sorta, and when you do, will always go to the "in charge guy' (of course, salesman has no authority for a deal the great) and come back with something a little higher. It never fails, and supports again what I said earlier. The salesman/manager will never tell you his lowest price, he will always make the buyer give it, and then come with a little bit higher price than you offer. Not positive, but I'd be willing to bet if you'd have walked out, you'd have gotten the price you sent in first. But, it takes walking out, and you gotta be willing to do that. You can always come back the next day ... or, wait for his call. 🙂 🙂 🙂

Yes, buyer is in charge, more or less, because you can always walk.

And giving a credit card to a salesman without a signed deal on the table? Never happen with me, but apparently it worked out for you this time. Good luck with your new one, and happy camping.

I know you are never going to give up the idea that the salesman is going to give you the lowest possible price but trust me...it just isn't going to happen. LOL

Here also is a tip from negotiating 101. As a sales manager, never accept the first offer if it is any less than MSRP. As well, never make the deal as long as the customer is still going up. Only make the deal when the customer has said absolutely no with no counter offer.

The reason I say that, 99% of customers have no idea what is a good deal and what is not. When asked, they have no clue what the dealer should make on a transaction even if they know the cost. On numerous occasions I have stood on a showroom floor and asked customers if they would pay a price for a vehicle that was at least $10,000 less than my cost. Inevitably they either want to know if that is the best I can do or tell me they already have a lower price.

[monkey44]

Vulcaneer: No doubt you made a good deal and went in there armed with good information.

But one other thing your deal illustrates, the dealer will always 'force' the buyer to "tell us your highest offer" sorta, and when you do, will always go to the "in charge guy' (of course, salesman has no authority for a deal the great) and come back with something a little higher. It never fails, and supports again what I said earlier. The salesman/manager will never tell you his lowest price, he will always make the buyer give it, and then come with a little bit higher price than you offer. Not positive, but I'd be willing to bet if you'd have walked out, you'd have gotten the price you sent in first. But, it takes walking out, and you gotta be willing to do that. You can always come back the next day ... or, wait for his call. 🙂 🙂 🙂

Yes, buyer is in charge, more or less, because you can always walk.

And giving a credit card to a salesman without a signed deal on the table? Never happen with me, but apparently it worked out for you this time. Good luck with your new one, and happy camping.

[Vulcaneer]

When we bought our last 5th wheel, we had a salesman that was an RV'r. He openly admitted that he knew very little about the technical details of the 5'rs we were looking at. But said he could help with some things about them. But would get any answers we needed.

And he added that it was his job to help us find a unit we liked and help us put together a deal that satisfied us and the dealer. He showed us everything we wanted to look at. Pointed out some of the differences with others we looked at. But never pushed us in any way.

After a few hours we had seen all we wanted. And we told him which one we wanted him to work up a price on. And consider the offer on our trade in unit. He came up with some numbers. And we told him we didn't feel that was a price we could accept.

He said...OK then. Tell me what you need to make the deal work. We did. And he asked for a credit card to show we were serious. He came back from his sales manager with a price higher but within reason. Done deal.

But before hand, we knew the models we wanted to look at. And had researched the honest value of our trade in. Pretty much knew where we needed to be to make an acceptable deal. They did better than we expected.

[d3500ram]

I believe that sales people do not know their product. I feel that the consumer NEEDS to be educated to some extent on the product that they wish to purchase... ESPECIALLY if it is a high dollar item.

sidney wrote:
If I've done my homework and understand what I'm purchasing I'm confident I could determine if I'm being bamboozled by asking the pertinent questions.

The above quote rings so true. I was at a few dealers in the past couple of weeks looking at trucks. In one instance I asked about carrying capacity for a TC application . The salesman did not know so he asked the next person higher in the chain-of-command. I told him that I was looking for something with a "payload" rating in the 3,500# range. The man behind the desk said, "Don't worry- those are rated for 25,000#."

To me, an answer like that tells me either one of two things: The person did not hear or understand my question, OR he does not know the difference in specifications and is trying to snow the buyer. This person even got a little defensive when I mentioned that I was referring to payload specifications, not towing/ combined ratings. He made a snide comment back by saying that "you can't have it all, in order to get one, you have to give up another."

My advice to salespeople: Never insult your customer's intelligence.




A buyer NEEDS to know and educate himself before making a purchase!

sidney wrote:
If you find a salesperson ... misrepresenting a product or service you have every right to diplomatically correct their actions and not tolerate their behavior.

I went to another dealer, again with my main criteria being that of a truck which could carry my camper. The salesman kept trying to steer me towards a 2500 series truck (I asked to look at the 3500's.) He told me that all I have to do is add air bags and it will work. When I asked about this particular truck that had tires whose Load Index was not as high as other ones, he reiterated that the air bag will take care of that.

I opted to not politely correct the misinformation and just walked out.

[sidney]

The message I'm getting from several of these replies is some folks don't understand who is in command when shopping and negotiating a purchase. You have the money, you control the situation.

If you have done your homework you have a great advantage over the uneducated, untrained salesperson.

If you find a salesperson pushy or catch them misrepresenting a product or service you have every right to diplomatically correct their actions and not tolerate their behavior.

Why are some salesman pushy and dishonest? Because enough customers allow themselves to be manipulated into a deal. Which only encourages the dishonest salesman to use the same tactics in the future.

I do not doubt that some of you have come across some very unscrupulous salesman... but in my experience... honesty and integrity is what keeps any business in business.

Again, my point is telling newbies "don't trust the salesman" offers very little assistance to a new RV buyer.

Isn't it more beneficial to offer advice on how to find a good salesman rather than stereotyping all salesman as shysters?

[monkey44]

sidney asks: If you have had a bad experience with a salesman I have no problem with you sharing your story. But when a member is looking for advice when buying a new RV and "don't trust the salesman" is the 1st advice offered without knowing anything about the dealership or the salesperson the buyer is working with... isn't that a tad prejudice?

Well, maybe, but it might also mean it's the highest priority for people who have been on the buying end, and found it true. Not everyone is making this stuff up, so there must be some truth in it. I can't imagine that everyone is 'out to get' RV salesmen. I mean, why would they?

All RV salesmen are 'out to get' buyers either, but the salesmen have a much higher incentive to keep that buyer right on that lot at any cost, whereas, if the buyer leaves, he will find an RV, but the salesman won't see a paycheck if the buyer buys elsewhere. That incentive to 'speak in forked tongue' is pretty high.

[sidney]

TyroneandGladys wrote:

sidney wrote:
TyroneandGladys

Don't you believe if you asked enough of the right questions that you would be able to easily determine if you were being lied to?

I hope for your sake you do not belive that

Well actually I do. If I've done my homework and understand what I'm purchasing I'm confident I could determine if I'm being bamboozled by asking the pertinent questions.

Also, if a customer seriously asked me if I have ever "lied to a customer"... in effect questioning my integrity... I wouldn't want their business and walk out of their office.

[Roundtwo-40]

Roundtwo-40 wrote:

We bought our trailer and had a great salesman, the finance lady however turned into the rudest "lady" (i'm being nice) when we declined the extended warranty. I made it a point to go back and tell our salesman of her less than stellar people skills and again addressed it in our customer service questionaire we filled out later. Every time I recommend that dealership to others I tell them that story and with social media and other means of communication bad opinions fly faster than good ones.

The finance people in dealerships make more profit for the dealership than any other person and are also the highest paid.

Not arguing that, but I am still the customer cutting the check, If you don't get what you want deal with it instead of turning into w B!+@H it reflects badly on the dealership and any recommendations I make about them.

[TyroneandGladys]

sidney wrote:
TyroneandGladys

Don't you believe if you asked enough of the right questions that you would be able to easily determine if you were being lied to?

I hope for your sake you do not belive that

[Santa_Fe]

I was looking at a brand new 4Runner before I bought my '08 at the Toyota dealer that I get my service done at. The salesman I had was one of the pushiest I've dealt with (let's do the papers tonight, bring your trade tomorrow, we're open late!). He really didn't give me any time to contemplate a $36,000 purchase. We left that night he didn't hear another word from me. I appreciate that you're trying to do your job to the standards that are expected of you, but please be a little respectful to your customers.

When I went to look at my '08, it was a different experience. The salesman I dealt with was a lot more understanding and didn't push. He was the one who got the sale.

[sidney]

TyroneandGladys

Don't you believe if you asked enough of the right questions that you would be able to easily determine if you were being lied to?