New vehicle hitch set up question

[Camper_G]

Hey y'all.

I need to update my signature, about 2 months ago, I traded the 2000 Ford Expedition in and bought a 2015 Chevrolet Silverado Crew Cab, 1500 4x4.

I took the trailer for the first test tow today and I'm very pleased with the performance of the Silverado versus the Expedition. Big difference in power, the extra 2 gears is nice, has an intergrated brake control, the tow/haul mode works great and gives extra engine braking, etc.

My question for the experts is this. When hitched up with NO weight in the back off the chevy, with the hitch head on it's highest setting, and two links on the weight bars loose, it's about 1" NOSE HIGH.

When I drop it down one hole on the draw bar, same chains setting, no weight in the bed it's about 1" NOSE LOW.

I know level or a little nose low is optimal.

When I got back home, with the 1" nose low setting, I had my wife and two sons get in in the bed of the Chevy and sit near the tailgate. With them in the bed, I lost an additional 1/2" in height at the front of the trailer, IE it would be 1-1/2" nose LOW. The weight of my wife and two boys is around 300lb or so I'm estimating.

My thoughts here is maybe I should go back to the original head height setting, which was 1" nose High, with the truck and camper empty (just non perishabbles in the camper I keep in it all year, plates and such, but no food, no clothing, ETC.

I know with a full load of firewood, plus other gear in my truck bed, plus more weight in the camper itself, which would put more tongue weight on the Chevy, I'd likely be sitting dead level, or maybe just a touch nose high.

It's possible with full firewood and all the gear in the truck bed, I could lose another 1/2" and then I'd be 2" nose low which seems too much, as I don't want to overheat the front axle tires.

I don't want to be nose high either, as I know that is not good for trailer stability or sway.

The measurements I took were on the 4 corners of the box on the left and right sides. I was in a parking lot as level as I could be when I took those measurements and each time the Chevy seemed to be sitting level so I think the weight bars are set correctly with 2 links loose.

What do you guys think? I'd apprecaite any help or thoughts. Stay as is and wind up 1-1/2-2" nose low when fully loaded for a trip or go back to the original and probably wind up level or just a bit nose high if I don't get as much squat on the rear of the chevy as I'm anticipating with the extra weight. I know the only true way to tell is to load it for camping and do what I did all over again, however, again any thoughts would be appreciated.



Sincerely,
Greg

[Camper_G]

Hi RC no i don't know what the weights are. The Layton is 6,000 gvw. Even loaded i don't believe it's that heavy but i use that as the weight estimate. I'm sure it's north of 5k loaded and ready to camp. Maybe i will find a scale in my area sometime to see what the numbers really are.

I'm nowhere the limits of my truck so i never worried about the actual numbers.

Thanks
G

[RCMAN46]

Do you know what your tongue weight is? How about the total trailer weight?

If you do not know a trip to the scales might be in order.

If you do go to the scales be sure to get all three weights loaded as if ready to go camping..

1. Truck only both axles.
2. Truck and trailer without WD engaged all axles.
3. Truck and trailer with WD engaged all axles.

[Camper_G]

Hi Ron

Thanks for your very detailed reply. You are correct. I was not trying to eliminate all rear end drop on the truck with the wdh. But the wdh does transfer some weight to the front axle and does play a role in getting the trailer set level for towing. When the wdh lifts the rear of the truck when loaded it affects the nose attitude of the trailer as a result. . I believe this is what you were trying to convey.

Yes, you cannot set ball height soely on the wdh, but the amount of lift provided by the wdh has to be cinsidrted in the set up. At least in my experience

Thanks again
Greg

[Camper_G]

Hey guys,

Update: I am back from my week long camping trip. The new Chevrolet pulled my old (heavy) layton around great, I was very impressed with the performance compared to my old 2000 Ford Expedition EB with the 5.4. The Chevy intregrated trailer brake control worked well also.

I wanted to give the update because those who initially reccomended that I "leave it where it was at" with 1" nose high, unloaded truck/trailer were correct.

I bought the 1" riser ball (actual increas is 5/8" over stock ball) and moved the hitch head down 1 hole which should have put me about 1/2" nose low unloaded.

Loaded for the trip (yes, i was loaded heavy with gear and supplies for the week trip, but with only me in the truck (wife and boys took her car to carry extra gear), I wound up 1-1/4-1/2" nose LOW. So with my original set up, stock ball, top hole on hitch head/draw bar, loaded I would have wound up around 1/4-1/2" nose low, which would be right where I want it to be.

So I'm going to put her back the way she was and run it that way. even on the times I run it un-loaded to get PA state inspection done, 1" nose high won't be bad as that would be the only time I'd ever run it totally unloaded (truck and trailer).

On the positive I have another ball now if/when I buy another camper and need it to fine tune the set-up so it's not wasted money to me.

Thanks for all the help, I really apprecaite it!

Sincerely,
Greg

[Ron_Gratz]

Camper G wrote:
---I think this is pretty good and the weight bars should transfer any additional squat from the tongue weight when loaded back to the front axle.

What do you guys think?

If you are saying you will try to use the WDH to lift the rear of the truck back up to its unhitched height -- I think that is a very bad idea.

Let's say your TT's loaded tongue weight is 750#. When the TT is attached with no WD applied, a load of approximately 300# will be removed from the steer axle, and a load of approximately 1050# will be added to the drive axle.

In order to lift the rear end back up to its unhitched height, the WDH would have to transfer 1050# off the rear axle -- with about 700# being transferred to the steer axle and about 350# being transferred to the TT's axles.

The net load changes would be: 400# added to the steer axle, 0# added to the drive axle, and 350# added to the TT's axles.

First, I think it would not be possible for your WDH to transfer 350# to the TT's axles, and even if it could, you certainly should not try to have the steer axle carrying 400# more than when unhitched.

I believe Chevrolet specifies that, if you use weight distribution, the WDH should be adjusted to eliminate about 50% of the TV's front-end rise which resulted from attaching the TT with no WD applied.
For the above example, where 300# was removed from the steer axle, the WDH should be adjusted to transfer about 150# back to the front.

If the WDH transfers 150# back to the steer axle, a load of about 220# would be removed from the drive axle.
This means the tongue-induced load on the drive axle would be reduced from the example 1050# to approximately 830#.

So, if you follow Chevrolet's instructions and restore 50% of the load which was removed from the steer axle,
the added load on the drive axle would be reduced to about 80% of what is was before WD was applied.

If the tongue weight, with no WD applied, caused the TV's rear end to drop by 2", application of WD per Chevrolet's specification would cause the rear-end drop to be reduced from 2" to about 1.6".

In short -- you should not try to use the WDH to eliminate the rear-end drop which resulted from application of tongue weight.

The WDH should not be used to control the ball height.
To control ball height, you should move the ball mount up/down on the drawbar.
If the holes in the vertical part of the drawbar are spaced at 1.5" intervals, you should be able to get the trailer tongue to be between 3/4" below and 3/4" above level.

Ron

[dodge_guy]

mkirsch wrote:
If you use your WD bars to pull ALL the squat out of the rear of your truck, or even reduce it to 1", you will be putting way too much weight on the front of your truck.

And this is why it's very important to have the proper rated bars. Too much or too little and you will not get proper weight transfer.

[mkirsch]

If you use your WD bars to pull ALL the squat out of the rear of your truck, or even reduce it to 1", you will be putting way too much weight on the front of your truck.

[Camper_G]

Ok so for kicks i checked my truck loaded but unhitched last night. To the top of the ball i have 20.5 inches. With the camper leveled in my driveway i have 20 inches6 to the inside of the top of the tongur where the ball inserts. I think this is pretty good and the weight bars should transfer any additional squat from the tongue weight when loaded back to the front axle.

What do you guys think?

[Camper_G]

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

As far as braking, think about the first thing your trailer tongue does when you peg the brake pedal. It dives forward (ie, down) and hard. Not saying there's a whole lot of difference in any case between the two settings, but if you're already 1 1/2" down, it's going to be much lower in a braking situation. I have mine set about 1/2" high when loaded and I have no issues. I believe it's more important to get the hitch set correctly to transfer the proper weight to the front axles for handling. My .02.

Not true at all. When you hit the brakes the weight (energy)transfers as far forward as possible. That would be all the way to the front bumper of the TV.

If anyone doubts that, just look at slow motion video of anything braking. The nose of the car, trucks and especially motorcycles dives to the ground. Anybody that has ridden a motorcycle will tell you that the back brakes of the motorcycle are almost useless because of this.

If you have a nose high trailer and when you brake hard the TV will nose dive and then try to raise the back of the TV. It will look like an inch worm.

Ever see a truck and trailer "jack knifed"? This is one of the reasons why. The trailer will try and lift the back end of the TV off of the ground and if it's not perfectly straight it will kick the back end of the truck around. With ABS on the TV this is even more pronounced.

If you set the trailer up slightly nose down when you brake hard the nose of the TV will dive, the back will come up slightly and even out the coupling height. Look at this video to see why nose high is a bad idea.

See how the nose dives and the trailer lifts up around 22 seconds. This is what your trailer will do at a nose up or level attitude.

Thanks for this excellent post and video. It's hard to argue with your point about the 22sec mark and what the trailer will do during hard braking. I did buy a1 inch riser ball which actually gave me about 5/8 inch over the standard ball. So unloaded i will be about 1/2 inch nose low. Maybe 1 inch low when loaded.

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

As far as braking, think about the first thing your trailer tongue does when you peg the brake pedal. It dives forward (ie, down) and hard. Not saying there's a whole lot of difference in any case between the two settings, but if you're already 1 1/2" down, it's going to be much lower in a braking situation. I have mine set about 1/2" high when loaded and I have no issues. I believe it's more important to get the hitch set correctly to transfer the proper weight to the front axles for handling. My .02.

Not true at all. When you hit the brakes the weight (energy)transfers as far forward as possible. That would be all the way to the front bumper of the TV.

If anyone doubts that, just look at slow motion video of anything braking. The nose of the car, trucks and especially motorcycles dives to the ground. Anybody that has ridden a motorcycle will tell you that the back brakes of the motorcycle are almost useless because of this.

If you have a nose high trailer and when you brake hard the TV will nose dive and then try to raise the back of the TV. It will look like an inch worm.

Ever see a truck and trailer "jack knifed"? This is one of the reasons why. The trailer will try and lift the back end of the TV off of the ground and if it's not perfectly straight it will kick the back end of the truck around. With ABS on the TV this is even more pronounced.

If you set the trailer up slightly nose down when you brake hard the nose of the TV will dive, the back will come up slightly and even out the coupling height. Look at this video to see why nose high is a bad idea.

See how the nose dives and the trailer lifts up around 22 seconds. This is what your trailer will do at a nose up or level attitude.

[Camper_G]

Hi moss. Thanks for your reply. I see your in my neck of the woods 🙂

I agree with your thoughts. I went ahead and ordered the 1" rise ball last night after confirming my shank diameter.

There was a comment in the reviews or possibly prior in this thread that the standard ball mount like i have now actually has a 1/4" rise built into it, so the 1" riser is actually 3/4" higher than the standard. I measured the standard one when i took it off the hitch head and confirmed that is accurate. I will measure the rise on the new ball when i get it and if it's 1" then the above is correct. If it's 1-1/4 then it's a full 1"over standard

I believe i have my bars and head angle set correctly. The truck sits pretty level when hitched. The back is down a little bit but not much. It's hard to tell because Chevrolets do sit front lower than the back when unloaded. Maybe that's so they level when loaded? I guess that's why leveling kits are popular for the Chevrolets.

Thanks again for all the replies.

-Greg

[mosseater]

I have checked my tongue weight with the nose at several positions and I can safely say any increase or decrease resultant from 1" (or 2 or more for that matter) will be negligible. Maybe more on a shorter trailer as opposed to a longer one just by virtue of the beam length from axles to tongue.

As far as braking, think about the first thing your trailer tongue does when you peg the brake pedal. It dives forward (ie, down) and hard. Not saying there's a whole lot of difference in any case between the two settings, but if you're already 1 1/2" down, it's going to be much lower in a braking situation. I have mine set about 1/2" high when loaded and I have no issues. I believe it's more important to get the hitch set correctly to transfer the proper weight to the front axles for handling. My .02.

[Camper_G]

I will look into the 1" riser ball. They are very reasonably priced on etrailer. If i keep the hitch head where it is now 1" low with standard ball then add the 1" riser i should be level with no load in the truck and slightly nose low when loaded. That seems like the best option or at least worth a try for $20.

[Camper_G]

Agreed. That's why i wanted to get opinions on this. As I've always understood level or slightly nose low is preferable for towing stability. Nose high takes weight off of the tongue and can induce swsy....not good. I also may not really lose that extra 1/2". I don't think the items i will have in the bed will be over 300 lbs even with the firewood.