SPINAL SURGERY

[LYNNCCRN]

Looking like DH will need it - 2 herniated disks plus stenosis. Neurosurgeon or orthopedic surgeon - any suggestions? We're in WY for the winter & thinking maybe of Salt Lake City. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

[miltvill]

Last year due to a combination of things I hurt my lower back. My left leg was weak and I was limping badly. I would also get a sharp pain down my right leg. This time last year I had to cut my camping trip short and come back home. I could no longer go up my TTs steps. I had to go back to work so was in a panic. Had to get this problem fixed fast. My PC sent me for a MRI and Ex-ray. He also put me on a muscle relaxant and wanted to give me pain pills; however, I refused the pain pills. After reviewing the MRI and X-ray he sent me to a Neurosurgeon. This Neurosurgeon said I had two compressed nerves and three herniated disks in my lower back. He wanted to fuse the disks together, put screws in and enlarger the hole in my spine the nerves go through. He also told me I should start physical therapy to prove to my insurance I needed surgery. Not happy with this Neurosurgeon I went on my own to another hospital and saw a different Neurosurgeon who I had researched and liked what I found. I provided this Neurosurgeon with my MRI and X-ray. He told me the procedure the first Neurosurgeon wanted to perform would result in long term pain and more surgeries. So, I went with this Neurosurgeon.
My Neurosurgeon explained to me the following: One or two disk and you go home the same day. But three disks require two nights in the hospital. After surgery I would have to walk and walk. Also I would need physical therapy.
The day after surgery twice a Physical Therapist worked with me teaching me how to walk. My left leg had not worked correctly for three months.
When I got home I started by walking up and down the hallway remembering what the Physical Therapist had taught me. By my third week I was walking five miles at a time. When I went back to see the doctor in the third week, he told me I did not need to see him again and released me for work. I was as on light duty for three weeks before returning to full duty. Now ten months later and I feel great. I have taken care of myself by exercising. Got to build my back and abdomen muscles up.
Get more than one opinion.

[yakman]

darsben wrote:
Please before you commit to anything call A place that does minimally invasive spinal surgery.
Laser Spine institute in Scottsdale did my wife and it improved her life dramatically. Down time was one day. Problem is that Laser Spine cannot be reimbursed by medicare because they do it as an outpatient and medicare will only pay for inpatient Laser surgery. Out of pocket was about $17,000 for us.

There are places that do it as an inpatient but I know of non near you.

If you want to discuss our experiences with the surgery PM me.

Avoid this place.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_21/b4229021108723.htm

http://www.complaintsboard.com/bycompany/laser-spine-institute-a177000.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-04/laser-spine-surgery-more-profitable-than-google-sees-surge-in-complaints.html

[winnietrey]

delete

[Jerrybo66]

winnietrey wrote:
One final thought. If the Neuro thought lasers were all that great. I guarentee you he would have had a machine, And would be using it. That is the way of the world.

And when you do your research, Discount any study, from an enity that "has a dog in the fight" In other words any one that makes money by selling their point of view..
Best of luck

I get the opinion you know what you're talking about.. Thank you..
I'm on to the "dog in the fight" deal. A "specialist" who has a vein stripping machine told her she needed her leg veins stripped to cure her leg pains. Not so on a second opinion by her PC doctor after tests by an honest specialist. It's a damn shame some so called "professionals" would stoop so low to do that to a 75 year old lady. They have no conscience.
My wife is about 20-25# overweight, ( she doesn't use my computer )mostly around the hips. She knows she should be exercising but it's hard when she needs a walker to get around. I got her a slant board and a sit down pedal thing. The slant board doesn't seem to help.
She had a CAT SCAN and MRI last week for the neurosurgeon so we'll see if he changes his mind about being able to help. The people in the waiting room gave him high recommendations so I guess we'll just have to wait & see. I have a problem with her. She still believes most everything a "doctor" tells her. I have to be the bad guy and insist she gets more opinions. If I hadn't, she wouldn't have any usable leg veins. She is so sick of going to doctors, though I can't blame her, she just wants to do something. The problem with that thinking, what if it's wrong? There is probably no second chance. I will not back down. There will be no ,"ahh, lets give it shot deal". The doctor will have to explain to my satisfaction what he will do and his experience to do the treatment ...
I appreciated the wishes of luck. I think we're going to need it..
I also want to send a good luck wish to all who have similar problems who have posted a reply..... Thanks..

[bjcarpetguy]

Definateley Neuro Surgeon. I am having neck surgery again on Thursday. I am having it done at Multicare at Tacoma general. He did my first two and did a great job. The first was a lamenectomy, Had done on Thursday was back to work on
Monday.
The second was done on my neck from the front, this time from the back with more screws and rods.

[down_home]

ByTheRvr wrote:

LYNNCCRN wrote:
Looking like DH will need it - 2 herniated disks plus stenosis. Neurosurgeon or orthopedic surgeon - any suggestions? We're in WY for the winter & thinking maybe of Salt Lake City. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

I have a herniated disc and my GP sent me to a neurosurgeon. The neurosurgeon told me the pain wasn't severe enough to do surgery. He said all too often back surgery does more harm than good. I don't have severe shooting pain down my legs and without that he won't touch the surgery. fyi

The VA won't do mine and first outside opinion, early this year, said he wouldn't do it until the pain was so bad I couldn't stand it. I've seen another Neurosurgeon last week and will go back shortly. The minimally invasive laser sounds like the way I would prefer to go. there are oter disc with problems too but L6 is the main one and the reason for the reluctance to do anything. I find it amazing Medicare won't pay for the out patient procedure. Glad I'v been following this thread.

[ByTheRvr]

LYNNCCRN wrote:
Looking like DH will need it - 2 herniated disks plus stenosis. Neurosurgeon or orthopedic surgeon - any suggestions? We're in WY for the winter & thinking maybe of Salt Lake City. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

I have a herniated disc and my GP sent me to a neurosurgeon. The neurosurgeon told me the pain wasn't severe enough to do surgery. He said all too often back surgery does more harm than good. I don't have severe shooting pain down my legs and without that he won't touch the surgery. fyi

[winnietrey]

One final thought. If the Neuro thought lasers were all that great. I guarentee you he would have had a machine, And would be using it. That is the way of the world.

And when you do your research, Discount any study, from an enity that "has a dog in the fight" In other words any one that makes money by selling their point of view. You want studies done by researchers, who are not funded by any particular group. Any do large scale side by side, with control group studies.

Best of luck

[winnietrey]

Jerrybo66 wrote:
The meeting we had with the doctor at Laser Spine Institute explained that she had a bone spur on the vertebrae that was restricting the opening and was irritating the spinal column. They would cut a "window" in the vertebrae and laser the bone spur down. She would walk out of the facility the same day with not much more than a bandade on the incision. Sounded great.. Mayo Clinic says lasers can only cut soft tissue . She went to a Neurosurgeon last week, recommended by her PC doctor, who said the problem was arthritis and an operation wouldn't help. There are two totally opposite opinions from supposedly experts. How are we supposed to make a decision? How many opposite "opinions" do we need to pursue? This isn't a problem where we can just make a "poke 'n' hope selection. We are finding that it getting harder to find anyone who will recommend a doctor or dentist. I guess good ones are hard to find.. The neurosurgeon ordered another MRI so hopefully that will show more information..?????????????????

I am a long time Chiro, I have been following your post for a time. Perhaps I can add some further info, or at the very least confuse you more.

1) everybodys back is different and the pain, can come from many causes.
So what works for one may not work for another.

2) what the neuro is saying to you in Dr speak is, he does not want to operate becuase he thinks the outcome will be poor.

Is by chance your DW over weight and out of shape? These would be the typical reasons a neuro would not want to procede.

3) The laser spine Instute says they are going to cut a "small window"
translation the have to cut part of the vertebrae away to get at the spur or disc. That further weakens the spine, and leads to problems down the road.

Does not matter if you use a laser or a knife, so much, they both are invasive. And if DW is over weigth etc, outcome will be poor.

We all want an instant fix, we want to be good as new. Sadly no matter which route you choose, it is unlikely to happen.

Have you considered, conservative care, as in Chiropractic, PT, massage, inversion table etc.

8 weeks of conservative care, weight loss, exercise, will give you a good idea, if DW will improve and you can avoid an invasive procedure.

Lastly, sorry to say, their is no quick fix in most cases. Surgery or not you are looking at months of rehab. And life style changes as in exercise. That she will have to do for the rest of her life.

Again we all want a quick fix, (me included) But very often anyone who promises that is generally someone to be avoided.

It will take time and work. And lastly if it were me. I would trust the opinion of the neuro as opossed to that on the laser spine instute. But I do not know everything, I have been wrong before. And I am always amazed at the ability of the body to heal itself. So keep the faith,

[Jerrybo66]

darsben wrote:

Jerrybo66 wrote:
The meeting we had with the doctor at Laser Spine Institute explained that she had a bone spur on the vertebrae that was restricting the opening and was irritating the spinal column. They would cut a "window" in the vertebrae and laser the bone spur down. She would walk out of the facility the same day with not much more than a bandade on the incision. Sounded great.. Mayo Clinic says lasers can only cut soft tissue . She went to a Neurosurgeon last week, recommended by her PC doctor, who said the problem was arthritis and an operation wouldn't help. There are two totally opposite opinions from supposedly experts. How are we supposed to make a decision? How many opposite "opinions" do we need to pursue? This isn't a problem where we can just make a "poke 'n' hope selection. We are finding that it getting harder to find anyone who will recommend a doctor or dentist. I guess good ones are hard to find.. The neurosurgeon ordered another MRI so hopefully that will show more information..?????????????????

I worked in An OR for many years. Different Lasers can cut different things. We used them to cut up Bladder and Kidney stones which are by no means soft tissue (YAG laser). My wife surgery entailed removing bone spurs from her lamina and it worked just great. The newest treatment for heel bone spurs is laser ablation. Shortens recovery dramatically. So my wife's bone spurs were removed by laser.
On a more day to day example laser cutting of metals is very common so saying a laser can only cut soft tissue is in error. Lasers can cut through anything it is just a matter of the right wave length laser and enough power

Thanks for the "confusing" information. If you know through experience that a medical laser can cut bone, (I thought it should be possible) why is there negative opinions against the procedure? Why can't the "experts" agree on anything? They all have accessibility to the same equipment, is it because some don't know how to use it? It seems as if diagnoses is done by throwing a dart at a board not by reading stats, otherwise why can a person's diagnosis be so far off? I realize my whole post is questions but I don't think the answers from a "doctor" should be so vague as to be exact opposite of that of another "doctor".. Something's wrong with the industry... IMO...
Thanks for the reply. It seems we have a lot more homework to do....

[darsben]

Jerrybo66 wrote:
The meeting we had with the doctor at Laser Spine Institute explained that she had a bone spur on the vertebrae that was restricting the opening and was irritating the spinal column. They would cut a "window" in the vertebrae and laser the bone spur down. She would walk out of the facility the same day with not much more than a bandade on the incision. Sounded great.. Mayo Clinic says lasers can only cut soft tissue . She went to a Neurosurgeon last week, recommended by her PC doctor, who said the problem was arthritis and an operation wouldn't help. There are two totally opposite opinions from supposedly experts. How are we supposed to make a decision? How many opposite "opinions" do we need to pursue? This isn't a problem where we can just make a "poke 'n' hope selection. We are finding that it getting harder to find anyone who will recommend a doctor or dentist. I guess good ones are hard to find.. The neurosurgeon ordered another MRI so hopefully that will show more information..?????????????????

I worked in An OR for many years. Different Lasers can cut different things. We used them to cut up Bladder and Kidney stones which are by no means soft tissue (YAG laser). My wife surgery entailed removing bone spurs from her lamina and it worked just great. The newest treatment for heel bone spurs is laser ablation. Shortens recovery dramatically. So my wife's bone spurs were removed by laser.
On a more day to day example laser cutting of metals is very common so saying a laser can only cut soft tissue is in error. Lasers can cut through anything it is just a matter of the right wave length laser and enough power

[Jerrybo66]

The meeting we had with the doctor at Laser Spine Institute explained that she had a bone spur on the vertebrae that was restricting the opening and was irritating the spinal column. They would cut a "window" in the vertebrae and laser the bone spur down. She would walk out of the facility the same day with not much more than a bandade on the incision. Sounded great.. Mayo Clinic says lasers can only cut soft tissue . She went to a Neurosurgeon last week, recommended by her PC doctor, who said the problem was arthritis and an operation wouldn't help. There are two totally opposite opinions from supposedly experts. How are we supposed to make a decision? How many opposite "opinions" do we need to pursue? This isn't a problem where we can just make a "poke 'n' hope selection. We are finding that it getting harder to find anyone who will recommend a doctor or dentist. I guess good ones are hard to find.. The neurosurgeon ordered another MRI so hopefully that will show more information..?????????????????

[darsben]

emzee wrote:
darsben, did you know about medicare before your wife had the treatment? I wonder why they wouldn't cover out patient procedures as it would be cheaper for them?

Who knows the wisdom of Medicare rules. The rule and alternatives (inpatient somewhere else) were explained to us before we paid.
I am really high on Laser Spine because we have referred three people and Laser Spine told 2 of them they could not help them the third is doing fine.
Laser Spine will review your images at no obligation to tell you if Minimally invasive surgery will help. Then you are free to find a place that does it inpatient if you want to. The money paid was well worth it to us. The alternative was a major surgery with 6 - 8 month recoup time.
Would have paid 10 times the amount for this surgery. It gave two people their lives back.
There is nothing negative anyone can tell me about the company. As with all surgeries "you pays your money and you takes your chances"

Jerrybo66
Medicare will pay the doctors not the facility charges. I found nothing luxurious about the waiting room. The lunch was nice. Apparently someone misinformed you about the medicare rule but if you write Medicare they will be happy to explain it.
Some private insurance will pay for the facility charges. In our case my wife had a private policy that paid 80% of my out of pocket. but that is beside the point. They helped my wife I paid the tab. Everyone happy.

[TugCE]

Please be very careful when picking a surgeon. Back in 2005 when I had my surgery my surgeon was very highly regarded. I was young for back surgery (43) maybe if I had been a little older I might have had a different outcome. I live in pain everyday but I have made the decision to enjoy what I can do rather than dwelling on what I can not do.

When it comes to picking a surgeon please get as many opinions as possible. Also, if the first thing they want to do is operate RUN! Most surgeons will try therapy before even talking about surgery. Also if a Doctor says that he or she can get you back to 100% in x time be very careful. My Surgeon told my wife and I that I would be back to 100% after 3-4 months after the surgery. It took a long time for my wife to understand that I was having problems and that my pain was getting worse not better. The worse thing for my was that I had to give up the job that I loved (Chief Engineer) as it is 100% or nothing.

One thing that I would suggest is to get opinions from an Orthopedic Surgeon also. The most important thing is to make sure that whomever you decide to go with Specializes in the type of Surgery that you need.

I wish you the best of luck and hope that you can get the relief that you need. Please feel free to contact me via PM, I have done a lot of research on Back Surgery (sometimes too much).