Shih Tzu that bites

[salem]

About six weeks ago my son and his family adopted a little female dog from the SPCA. Maggie is about 18 months old and appears to be mostly Shih Tzu looking with some terrier mixed in. The girls, ages 7,11, and 13, have really became attached to her. Yesterday, my son was helping his neighbor paint. The neighbor's wife bent over and picked up Maggie and held her as you would a baby. (on her back) She reached for her collar to see what was written on it and Maggie snapped at her, biting the end of her nose. (very minor) This neighbor lady kept saying that she was at fault because she picked up a strange dog without getting to know it first. Regardless of fault, my son is really concerned that Maggie is going to be a "biter." My granddaughters have lots of friends over and he is afraid that Maggie may bite one of them. Sorry for the long post, but I know there are several people on this forum with lots of experience with dogs. My question is what do you advise? Should they return the dog to the SPCA? The girls will be heartbroken, but we all realize that they will get over that, but an injured child is something they'll never get over. What do you think? Just a freakish one time thing, or visions of things to come? Thanks in advance.

[sher9570]

CA POPPY wrote:
I agree, the woman put Maggie in the most vulnerable possible position and you just don't do that with a dog you don't know. I have always done it with our pups and tickled their bellies and taught them it was play time. I tried it once with Poquita's sibling that looked just like her and that little dog went all Cujo on me! My friend who owned her said, "Oh no, we can't hold her that way, either." My bad, and it taught me a lesson. Just because I love all dogs doesn't mean they know that. I would teach the children that Maggie has a right to her personal space and not to allow anyone to invade it. I'll bet she will be fine.

I agree totally, this little dog was put in the most vulnerable position...frankly I would have done the same thing.
Good luck, I really hope this will be a forever home, if it goes back to the shelter it may very well be put to sleep.
Good luck!

Sher

[dturm]

ditto what Susan said

[Code2High]

Sometimes people just get careless and forget that they don't know the dog, even if they "know better." I've had new dogs that seemed fine and in the moment, I forgot that they really weren't and I knew that, moved too fast and been offered teeth. It happens. It doesn't make them killers.

Definitely this was a BIG handling error with a new dog. A dog that has just been moved from one home to another or a home to a "shelter" to a home, needs careful handling until trust has developed with the new humans. Under certain circumstances you might have to do things that you haven't really built the trust with that dog to do easily, but in those circumstances you would proceed knowing that you're provoking the dog and take appropriate precautions.

The girls should be talked to and I think a study of dog behavior or maybe a meeting with a trainer or behaviorist would be helpful both with this dog and in their lives moving forward. They may know a lot by instinct, but they would be well served to learn more about body language and safety. Learning that stuff will make it far less likely that they are going to have an issue with this little girl or any other dog, for that matter.

[Deb_and_Ed_M]

I would have bitten, too....LOL!

[salem]

Thanks all, I knew I would get some good responces. They really want to keep the dog but would be devastated if she ever injured someone seriously. Perhaps if they just keep a close eye on her for a while it will help them make the right decision. We're all hoping it was just a freakish incident.

[CA_POPPY]

I agree, the woman put Maggie in the most vulnerable possible position and you just don't do that with a dog you don't know. I have always done it with our pups and tickled their bellies and taught them it was play time. I tried it once with Poquita's sibling that looked just like her and that little dog went all Cujo on me! My friend who owned her said, "Oh no, we can't hold her that way, either." My bad, and it taught me a lesson. Just because I love all dogs doesn't mean they know that. I would teach the children that Maggie has a right to her personal space and not to allow anyone to invade it. I'll bet she will be fine.

[garry1p]

I don't think you can make a judgment based on this incident.

Magggie reaction was not unreasonable based on the circumstances she had no way to back away.

[rockhillmanor]

Hmm, rescue dog, new surroundings and your friend picks up the dog turns it on it's back and goes for it's throat?

THAT is exactly how the dog looked at when your friend flipped her over and then went to pull on the collar around the dogs neck. No wonder the dog bit her!

If this dog was really raised with kids give this dog TIME to get used to being ripped from it's owners and all he has ever known and placed into a new strange home with strange people.

I don't let anyone outside my home touch, pick up or do anything to a new rescue dog I have added. Let him get used to your family and start feeling secure that this new place is not going to hurt her and that you are there to protect her, BEFORE you start exposing her to yet other strangers.

Just saying. I see more dogs returned not because of the dog's fault but because most owners do not take the necessary time to introduce a rescue dog to it's new home. Bottom line IMHO, JMHO not knowing 'all' the exact circumstances. I don't think this dog is a biter.

Back any dog in a corner with a baseball bat and they will all try and bite you to save themselves. This poor little pup was on her back and big human going for her throat, give they little pup a break!!:B:B

Maggie is about 18 months old and appears to be mostly Shih Tzu looking with some terrier mixed in

Pictures, we need pictures! Post of picture of the new rescue she sounds way too cute to ever be bad! :C

[Pawz4me]

No one can say whether this was a one time freakish thing or is going to be an ongoing issue.

One thing that IS certain is that the neighbor lady was very wrong to pick Maggie up the way she did. I'm rather surprised that she's dog savvy enough to understand that and yet did it anyway. That's a puzzler. Also, your son wasn't doing his job when he allowed it to happen. So . . . the humans in Maggie's life need to behave better, while also being vigilant about potential issues with Maggie (as they should be with any new dog). Yes, some dogs will put up with something like that w/o missing a beat. But I don't think Maggie's reaction was outside the realm of normal given what the lady did to her.

[Dog_Folks]

Dog aggression is a very difficult thing to diagnose and then treat.

If a situation ever screamed out for a professional trainer, this is one!!!

[PapPappy]

Growling and biting/nipping are the dogs way of telling you "I need more space", or "don't mess with me right now!".
We have a "Maggie" too, and she is also a bit of a worry with our GS...not that she's ever bit him, but if he gets into her face, she'll growl at him, and if he doesn't move, she'll do a quick yip/bark, to scare him away. We worry that if he doesn't move away, she will eventually nip him! So we constantly tell him to stay away from the dogs, when they growl! He's 3, so it doesn't always work:(
Teach the children to look for signs when Maggie is stressed or nervous, and giver her her space. Worst thing that anyone can do, is overwhelm the dog by trying to make her understand who or what they are.....such as when the neighbor picked her up (she had lost all control of the situation, and Maggie felt her only option was to nip the woman)

Being in a house with other dogs, Maggie probably understood the hierarchy, and while she may have been the smallest, that doesn't mean that she wasn't (or at least thought she was) the "Alpha" dog. Some just seem born to the throne!:)
If she was spoiled in the previous home, this only entitled her more. She needs to know who is the Boss....and people (all people) are the BOSS!!

We've got 8 dogs, who are for the most part very social, and well behaved, but as I had mentioned, Tugger is nervous around new people, and in his previous home, there was a lot of partying, and strange people in and out of the house, so he was trying to protect his home.....he started nipping at people. Of course, when that happened the first few times, people laughed (he's a small dog...no harm/no foal)...which only made things worse, as he seemed to think that this was accepted behavior. Eventually, he couldn't stay at that home, and we took him. 99% of the time, he's fine, and as I said, he's great with our 3 year old GS......is "velcro" to my DW, and is a great dog.....but, he's still nervous when strangers come into our house. The leash allows us to control him (we're not as quick as we used to be:)), and he's not bouncing around and aggressive when on the leash.
This works for us.....it may or may not work for your son, especially if there is a lot of traffic in the house on a daily basis.

How does Maggie behave when she is left alone....or allowed to mingle with new people on her own terms?? Small dogs (we've got Papillons) tend to get picked up a lot, whether they like it or not, so you Son and family need to be her advocate, and ask strangers not to do that....at least until she's ready!

It is often easy to think of these things in terms of ourselves.....how would you feel if someone strange were to pick you up? Nuff said:B

Good luck!

[salem]

Thanks, PapPappy.

Rvten: A little history of the dog. According to the SPCA, the dog lived with a family who had children. They also had two bigger dogs who seemed to enjoy harrassing Maggie. Fearing they would injure her, they turned her over to the SPCA. According to the family, she does not have a history of biting.

[PapPappy]

We have a dog that will nip too. Tugger is the most gentle dog with our 3 year old Grandson, and the rest of the family, but he's not as nice with strangers.

What we do, is to keep him on a leash when people come over.....yes, it's a bit extreme, but he usually calms down after about 10 minutes.

Your neighbor was right, when she said that she was at fault....picking up a strange dog is asking for trouble....and then to place the dog in a position of submission (on it's back) is even worse.

I don't think I'd be to worried about Maggie....unless you see additional behaviors that indicate aggressiveness. You may want to have a dog therapist/trainer/behaviorist check her out too....it may be money well spent:)

Good luck

[rvten]

For one you do not know how the fog was treated by past owner.
Dog needs to get used to being handled by different people.
May take some work on your sons part.
Some dogs do not like everybody. Some people do not know how to approach a dog or handle one.