3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Navychop]

BTW, although the brushes will eventually wear out, in my experience they are easy to replace.

I missed out on getting the Cobra DFD3000H with electric start for $200 plus shipping & ins. Moved too slow. Couldn't find another or similar one on eBay or googling. Since I dithered so long on getting a gen, I was running out of time. I should've bought last October but health and other concerns delayed me. I'm sure I'll be happy with the Kipor and will just have to write off the extra cost to peace of mind for the sine wave and future parts/service availability. The name has been around for years and there's a pretty strong following here for Kipor. But the other Chinese generators whose names come and go may well have no problem- sounds like people have had great success using Honda parts. And for over $500 less......

Moral of the story: Don't analyze it to death, make a decision and move on the opportunity.

------

Now- anyone know a source for an adapter that lets you plug in a 30 amp RV cord into the 30 amp twist lock receptacle on some generators, including Kipor? I can make one up myself, but I'd rather buy a molded one. Can't find at Camping World.

[rmplstlskn]

FulltimeDreamer wrote:
RMPLSTLSKN,

I purchased one of the UST 3000 GT generators from my local Pepboys back in the summer. It supplies all 25 AMPS to the twist and lock outlet. I used a female 30 AMP plug along with the included twist and lock connector to supply power to the TT. I have been able to run my 15,000 BTU A/C and microwave from this unit. It cranks very easily, required no modification and is relatively quiet. In short, I'm happy with this unit.

My unit didn't include a 220v twist-lock connector, only a tool pouch. The Wen PP 3500's had two 120v and one 220v connector included.

Some more info on the UST TG-3000:
It uses a Eastern Tool & Equip. (ELQ) 6.5HP motor, the ETQ-200.
It looks to be identical to the Red Hawk TG3000 and very similiar to the ELQ models but different outlet configs.
It has a DELIXI breaker (D247 C16) and 2 120v outlets and one 220v outlet with a toggle switch for either 120 or 120/220.

The company that distributes the TG-3000 no longer has gasoline generators on their web site so I doubt parts will be readily available, however the identical (has the same parts diagrams) RED HAWKunit (JD-3500/TG3000) has a very well designed web site with all the parts listed (no prices though) and appears to be a top-line company. So I am more at ease with parts availability.

I am more at ease with parts for the TG unit over the Wen PP as I searched the internet for over an hour trying to find a place that carried WEN generator parts and could find NOTHING. I couldn't even find Wen's web site, if they have one.

Thanks Mr.Wizard for the info on the BRUSHES being on the FIELD coil. They were indeed on a field coil from the look of the schematic. For standard appliances (my main use is for a HOME well pump, oil furnace) is the lack of the more advanced field coil brushes a big enough deal to get the other unit (Wen)?

BTW, I use my Honda EU2000i for most HOUSEHOLD (and camping) loads as the Honda is on my back porch (quiet) and the TG-3000 will be out in the carport/workshed area closer to the well and furnace. My computers and electronics like the EU2000i power.... :B

Rmpl

[chkster]

kipor here runs great

[FulltimeDreamer]

RMPLSTLSKN,

I purchased one of the UST 3000 GT generators from my local Pepboys back in the summer. It supplies all 25 AMPS to the twist and lock outlet. I used a female 30 AMP plug along with the included twist and lock connector to supply power to the TT. I have been able to run my 15,000 BTU A/C and microwave from this unit. It cranks very easily, required no modification and is relatively quiet. In short, I'm happy with this unit.

[Rocky7184]

professor95 wrote:
In response to various readers looking for what was the original ELM3000, I spent a few minutes searching portable generators on eBay yesterday.

There is a unit being offered by "Craigs Affordable Tools" (item #7576975616) that closely matches the original JiangDong made ELM3000. This unit, which is sold under the "Contractor" label is also a JiangDong unit. The main difference is that it does not offer 220 volts at all (no big deal for RV use). The claimed AC power of 4,000 watts is all routed to a single 110/120 outlet. BTW, that 4,000W claim should not be taken seriously. The rating is undoubtably a peak rating. The output of this generator will be comparable to all the others in the 6.5 HP class.

I know nothing about this seller nor have ever physically touched his product. I do not in any way whatsoever endorse this product. I am only offering information on compatability to the original ELM3000.

Hi Professor,

I have one of those original elim3000's.I haven't had the occasion to use it while camping yet.My question is about that orange adapter that plugs into the outlets that allows you to plug in the 30amp rv plug.Can this be done with this unit.

I apologize for asking this ? because i know it was asked and answered long ago.I've tried to find the answer but with the size of this thread i had no luck.

thanks,

jeff

[MrWizard]

I think you should have bought the one with brushes

the brushes would be on the field winding, this usually means some kind of electronic voltage regulator, NOT just diodes and a capacitor,

( in other words ) a cleaner wave form with better regulation

NOT a gaurantee, but this system is more exspensive to mfg,

one more level of sophistication, RV gensets are built this way

[rmplstlskn]

Which one? A Wen Power Pro 3500 or UST TG-3000? The Wen generator DID NOT say it was "brushless" and the manual parts diagram showed a "BRUSH ASSY."

After many hours reading this forum and weeks planning the purchase, the lack of brushless rotor on the Wen Power Pro 3500 swayed me away from it. I bought the only remaining UST 3500/3000 TG-3000 gasoline generator from PepBoys here in Richmond, VA for $319.99. It is made by UST (Ultimate Solution Tools) and is marketed by IMS (Int'l Mechandising Service, Inc.). It has a Honda-clone 6.5HP motor.

Any info or feedback on this generator? Anyone have a wiring diagram for it? Manual had parts, no wiring.

It looks a lot like the ETQ / Wen mix. It has 3600 peak watts and 3000 running watts with a toggle switch for 120v and 120/240v outlets. It also has a voltmeter and two-pole breaker, as well as a 12v connection.

It also has something called a "automatic voltage stabilizer." Anyone know what that is and does?

Unlike the ETQ's I saw, this TG-3000 has the same LARGE MUFFLER the Wen PP 3500 had.

So did I do good? Or should I have gotten the Wen Power Pro 3500?

(I have 30 days to return this for the Wen) This was the last one but there were 6 Wen PP 3500's in stock, so between the "brush assy." on the Wen and this being the last one I took a leap of faith on a brand I had not previously read about in the endless pages of this forum thread...

Rmpl

[MrWizard]

The 120 outlet is of the standard doublet type with a built-in brass jumper (not a wire, just brass jumpers) from one outlet side to the other, ei: the hot is jumped to the hot on the other side, same for the neutral. This is what puts them in parallel, and is pretty much standard for 120v doublet outlets.

NOT unless you have (4) wires coming to the outlet

that comment is in regards the outlet & wiring..

those brass jumpers mean that both halves of the duplex are on the same line

NOT that the generator is delivering full power to those outlets

the full power transfer is ( full VS partial ) is there becasue of the 120/230 switch .. it is THIS switch that changes the windings from series 230 to parallel 120

generators that have both 230 & 120 but do NOT have the switch.. take the 120 from only one winding.

[Navychop]

Well, it's over, for me. Listening to the professor (and others) I realized it would be better, and quieter, to get a gen sized to meet the minimum "maximum" I would need. This means, able to run the air conditioner in the RV. The Kipor 3500ti can probably do that. Other 3000W units probably could, too, but 3000W units with electric start are rare. And electric start is the first requirement. It pretty much narrowed down the field, going 3000W class with electric start. Costs a bit more, but it has the "perfect" sine wave, which may not mean much, but may give me peace of mind if I ever run nice av equipment on it (not likely). And it will throttle back under light loads, a small plus. So much for the 6500W overkill approach. Probably would have built up carbon anyway.

FWIW, I paid $939.01 on eBay, including shipping and insurance.

[Navychop]

Transformers convert one ac voltage to another ac voltage. They are not a dc device. Attached to the transformer output is normally a rectifier bridge, basically two diodes, to convert to dc (variations exist, as in paragraph 3). Then other devices may be used to further remove any ripple in the dc, to the degree the intended device requires. I suppose technically there is no source of "perfectly smooth, ripple & static free dc" outside of a battery- but we can get "close enough" out of the mains.

And I think you'll find that UPS manufacturers recommend you NOT plug a MOV type surge suppressor into a UPS, or daisy chain MOVs. This can overheat them. And yes, I found this out firsthand. There are other methods than MOVs for surge suppression, especially on an industrial scale.

I’ve been doing some research on this sine wave concern. From some inverter discussions ( link ) I found: “…If they still don't work, then you have found examples of the dreaded and unpredictable incompatibility of MSW inverters and switching power supplies. Switching power supplies, like what is on the computer and LCD TV, those little boxes about the size of a lb of butter, produce DC out without large transformers and capacitors by using switching technology. They turn the output on and off very rapidly (50 kHz or so) to produce what looks like DC on the output. They are typically designed with the expectation of a sine wave, or something near it, on the input. If not, they may produce really ragged DC…..”

Anyone interested in a sine wave discussion may want to see this thread "Generators no good for electronics." It's only 3 pages right now.

Frankly, I'm stumped. I tend toward the Cobra 6500, but I know that running a generator at light loads can build up carbon. Plus, it's noisier. If I'm going to trust that a "3000" that might only output 2800 watts, is going to run a 15,000 BTU a/c, then that's the bare minimum, and maybe enough. Then I have to decide- pay extra for the Kipor pure sine wave? Seems like something like sine wave effects on various equipment would be more a matter of science than opinion, but here we are.

Anyway, what's that rule of thumb? A 15,000 BTU a/c is about 15 amps, which is 120v * 15 = 1,800 watts? I think that's wrong. Anyone here know the correct calculation?

[catalina30]

Ringo5000 wrote:
Is there any way to condition the power from a gen like this to be able to run a pc and digital appliances?

It is time for an answer to the digital appliance question.

The power used by digital appliances is simply a transfer of AC power to DC power. this is done by running the AC wave form thru a Diode Bridge and smoothing it with capacitors. when thru doing this the voltage is flatline, using a medical type slang. most modern appliances use a PWM stage to get this flatline voltage to the proper regulated voltage. This is accomplished before the power is supplied to the components that do there Job.

In the digital world spikes are the killer, and this is fixed by what you call a surge protector, in the electronic field this would be called and MOV. one can add as many surge protectors as one wants one is enough but in some industrial stuff many are added. any problem that the rough looking wave form produces will be taken care of by this step.

most power supplies have low voltage shutdown features to protect against a low voltage to the electronics. It is highly unlikely that when going from 110v that this feature will become active. todays power supplies don't even use a transformer to change voltage untill after the wave has been smoothed as DC power.

Kevin
The Right Lane

[cmg3500]

I believe the sine waves from these generators are ok.It is when the engine surges,& spits & sputters,that gives power spikes,& an ugly wave while its doing that.Thats what will mess up electronics.As long as its running smooth,.it should be OK.(I know someone that had a coleman gen,that didn't have the carb adjusted correctly,& the engine surged up & down for a few hours,& it fried his TV.)
thats just my 2cents on the sine wave issue.
and I agree the wave got to be better than the modified sine wave that the computer UPS puts out.

[PatJ]

I agree with the sine wave thing has been blown out of proportion. I have run everything with my Champion and have had no problems with it.

Right now the home computer I am typing this on, and the monitor, are plugged into an APC Back-UPS CS350 battery back up power supply. When the power goes out, this thing gives me a few minutes to save what I am working on and shut the computer down correctly. The inverter built into that thing is one of the really terrible ugly square-wave inverters and my computer runs fine with it too. That UPS has got to be worse than the chinese generators, and it was designed to run computers.

[ib516]

Ringo5000 wrote:
Is there any way to condition the power from a gen like this to be able to run a pc and digital appliances?

No need to. I have run everything digital, non digital, DVD, microwave, you name it - no problems at all. I have an Eliminator 3000.

[Marshall_Ak]

I just purchased a Nikota 3500w chinese generator about 2 weeks ago. My impression after about 3 hrs use: it was a very good buy...I'm happy with it. It always starts on the 1st or 2nd pull, just like a Honda. The noise level is entirely acceptable, but somewhat louder than the Honda EU1000/EU2000 series I'm used to. There is a switch on the unit to select either 120 or 240v, but both voltages are not available at the same time. Contrary to one post I have read, the 120v outlets are NOT limited to half the generator power. The entire 3500w genset power is available to the outlets, even if only one side is used. This is because even though the generator has two seperate windings with 13a circuit breakers in each, they are wired in phase and in parallel, at the double outlets. The 120 outlet is of the standard doublet type with a built-in brass jumper (not a wire, just brass jumpers) from one outlet side to the other, ei: the hot is jumped to the hot on the other side, same for the neutral. This is what puts them in parallel, and is pretty much standard for 120v doublet outlets. The one caveat I have about this is if you are running a full 3500w load on just one outlet, the entire 26 amps is delivered in one outlet, and in general that exceeds the power rating of these outlets...most peak at a 20a rating. If this bothers you, you can always remove or cut the brass jumpers between the two outlets. Then you'll have two outlets, each capable of delivering 13a max.
The other interesting thing I noticed about these generators is the load regulation: it's just superb...outstanding. From no load to 1500w, I got NO reduction in voltage (I mean ZERO)...it was a constant 122.4 v. How were they able to accomplish this? I don't know...they must have an excellent regulator built in is all I can say.
My one and only complaint about this generator: DON'T fill the tank entirely to the top. Stop when you are about an inch of the top, and no more. If you overfill, as soon as you put the cap on it wants to syphon gas out to the exterior of the tank, with fuel running down the sides. This is potentially a serious fire threat, so don't locate this generator close to any open flames or campfires, or anything flammable for that matter.
If you need a good generator and want to save $$$....don't hesitate...just buy it!

Marshall
Seward, Ak