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Advice on Surge Protectors?

Ductape_Dave
Explorer
Explorer
After reading several horror stories on members electrical issues, I am going to purchase a portable surge protector. I wanted to know from users which one is better between the two. Its for a 30 amp service.

One is from Camping World #58464: portable 30 amp surge guard, surge protection by technology research corp.

The other is from: Progressive Industries, 30 amp portable surge protector #EMS-PT30C.

Both are in the $250 range, but the Progressive Industries one offers better protection according to there charts.

Whats your experience with these?

Thanks,
Dave
2016 Coachmen Clipper 17BH
2016 Toyota 4Runner SR5
26 REPLIES 26

jmsokol
Explorer
Explorer
Adam-12 wrote:

As far as wiring damage and someone mentioned "polarity," ha! Good luck on a "polarity" issue. Outlets in America run "AC" current, so "polarity" is a moot topic of discussion.


Actually, IMHO "polarity" is a huge topic of discussion. See my article at RPBG and video at RPBG Video

While a simple polarity reversal of a H-N swap shouldn't be dangerous if the RV's electrical system has a properly isolated Ground and Neutral, homes, garages, office buildings, and campgrounds originally wired prior to the early 70's often had no safety ground wire at all. In an mis-guided effort to provide grounded outlets, some electricians and DIY guys in the 80's (and as late as 2012 that I know of) would do something called a "bootleg ground" by connecting a jumper wire between the Ground and Neutral Screws on the outlet itself. While a violation of the NFPA National Electrical Code, if the Hot/Neutral polarity was properly observed, then there was no immediate danger. However, if a bootleg ground is combined with a reversed polarity, then you have something I call a Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground (or RPBG). As you'll see in the linked article and video, an RPBG cannot be detected by a 3-light tester or even a voltmeter testing H-N, H-G and G-N for proper voltages. The only way to detect an RPBG is to meter between the outlet safety-ground and earth-ground (ground rod) or by using a Non Contact Voltage Tester (NCVT) that will trigger on potential over 40 volts AC.

An RPBG creates a very dangerous condition since the appliance or RV will appear to operate normally, but its chassis/skin will be at a full 120-volts above earth potential. Anyone touching the chassis and a ground (damp earth) at the same time will be shocked and potentially electrocuted. While almost impossible to occur with modern wiring, I believe that RPBGs are fairly common in old garage outlets, churches, and houses that were improperly "upgraded" to grounded outlets in the 80's. And since anything plugged into them will appear to operate normally, even for decades, it just takes the right combination of circumstances to become lethal.

Interestingly, none of the major test equipment manufacturers (Amprobe, Ideal, Fluke, etc...) seem to know about this, and I've spent the last year talking to their engineering departments and having them duplicate my RPBG experiment. All of them agree that it's a real problem that can't be detected by normal testing methods. I went through this most recently with Progressive Industries who told one of my NoShockZone readers that their devices would detect and protect RVs from an RPBG. But after I convinced PI to mock up the test for themselves, they called me back to acknowledge that there are no surge or voltage protector devices on the market that will detect or protect you from an RPBG, even their own products.

As far as the note on 480 volts, it's true that you won't normally find it at a campground. But in a conversation with PI they noted that a competitor's 120-volt product would often blow up if accidentally connected to 240 volts, while their devices are tested to 480 volts. Since a lot of Progressive Industry products are used in industrial situations and oil fields, there have been instances where they've been accidentally connected to a 480-volt, 3-phase feed, which is very common in those situations. When connected to 480-volts, it did exactly what it was designed to do, stop the voltage from getting to the RV electrical system while not being destroyed. That's a great testimony to the engineering of Progressive Industry products.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
www.noshockzone.org

Thunder_Mountai
Explorer II
Explorer II
My 50 amp Progressive Industries has saved my bacon more than one time!
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wa8yxm
Explorer III
Explorer III
In electricity there are two terms one of which is misused and the other underused.

Surge and spike

Now that Joule rating is about SPIKE supression.. A spike is a very short voltage peak lasting (usually) less than 1/100th of a second.

A surge, on the other hand, is a wave, can last for seconds and if one hits those spike supressors sound quite a bit like firecrackers as they blow up. I know, I was there when it happened (my basement when the power company screwed up)

More Joules are better.. but in the event of a genuine surge (or for that matter a "Dip" in voltage lasting more than a fraction of a second) that power line protective device simply cuts you off, as well it should, to protect you.

They monitor voltage, may monitor frequency and waveform and cut you off if the monitored values are not proper.
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Adam-12
Explorer
Explorer
Well I guess I'm the only one with the camping world portable 30a model. I love it and wouldn't look back. It has higher "surge" rating and it even works for electrical "brown outs," which seem to be more common.

As far as wiring damage and someone mentioned "polarity," ha! Good luck on a "polarity" issue. Outlets in America run "AC" current, so "polarity" is a moot topic of discussion. Now, how anyone would get "440v" is another laugh. Please explain to me how "440v" could occur at a pedestal and i will sell you property on the moon! 230/240v is a plausible occurrence, but not 360v, 480v or anything higher.

The most common problems with electrical outlets at campgrounds are 1) "brown outs" or commonly known as "low voltage draws." 2) electrical surges or "spikes" in electrical voltages. 3) improper grounding.

Before plugging in ANY RV or surge protector at ANY campground, one should invest in a simple $6.00 Harbor Freight voltage meter. Test the electrical outlet first for the proper voltage. If it doesn't read between 110v-129V, DO NOT PLIG ANYTHING IN!!!!

Second, get a simple $8.00 Home Depot outlet circuit tester (you know, the cute little plug thing with 3 pretty indicator lights on it), to ensure the "neutral" is wired properly.

Now how simple is that????
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jmsokol
Explorer
Explorer
smkettner wrote:
I would not be overly concerned about actual surge ratings as much as polarity, voltage and ground checks.


I would agree. The word "Surge" is overused and often mis-applied to all sorts of non-surge related voltage problems. There are very few actual "Surge/Spike" events compared to the number over/under voltage, polarity, and open ground problems.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
www.noshockzone.org

time2roll
Nomad
Nomad
I would not be overly concerned about actual surge ratings as much as polarity, voltage and ground checks.

Kampfirekid
Explorer
Explorer
I am ready to install one in my trailer, but i see the surge joule rating is over twice the rating with portable units. Shouldi be concerned?
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PatrickA51
Explorer
Explorer
Your welcome.
I found another link also link
Good luck hope these help.

RoadXYZ
Explorer II
Explorer II
PatrickA51 wrote:
Ductape Dave wrote:
Being I have a small unit with really no place to mount the hard wired one, is there any drawbacks to the Progressive portable unit.

I take it that it is waterproof and can take the abuse of the outdoor elements and does the box need to be supported at the post or is that stubby cord strong enough to support it hanging?



Dave

There is a very good article to read on surge protectors if you want to read it......Here's the link.


Thank you - Thank you !
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PatrickA51
Explorer
Explorer
Ductape Dave wrote:
Being I have a small unit with really no place to mount the hard wired one, is there any drawbacks to the Progressive portable unit.

I take it that it is waterproof and can take the abuse of the outdoor elements and does the box need to be supported at the post or is that stubby cord strong enough to support it hanging?



Dave

There is a very good article to read on surge protectors if you want to read it......Here's the link.

RoadXYZ
Explorer II
Explorer II
Thank you for the posting, we will be taking the small 18 ft. TT on a long trip next year, and had always swapped out the Surgeguard from one TT to the other.

Now I am thinking that we may need to invest in the Progressive EMS-PT30C for the smaller unit.
Full-Time RV'rs - Grandma Marji, and Grandpa
2008 Suburban / 2004 Alpenlite TT(FT)

jmsokol
Explorer
Explorer
raytronx wrote:
I installed the EMS-HW30C, the hard wired version.

Link to my blog post detailing it

So far I'm very happy with it, although I recently became aware it doesn't protect against one type of improperly wired plug called Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground. Seems none of the surge protectors can find this situation.

I'm in the process of learning more from Mike Sokol over at http://www.noshockzone.org/ and will update my blog.

http://www.noshockzone.org/ has some excellent RV electrical safety articles btw.

Ray


Much more on this later, but I did get confirmation from Progressive Industries today that their 120-volt products have been tested up to 440 volts. So it should do a good job of protecting your RV from plugging into a TT-30 120-volt outlet that's been mis-wired by an unknowing electrician with 240 volts. See http://www.noshockzone.org/accidentally-plugging-into-240-volt-outlet/ for this article on mis-wired outlet.

And here's my article about RPBG outlets and why they're difficult to test for: http://www.rvdoctor.com/2001/07/friends-of-gary-mike.html Ray and I have been in discussion about the RPBG hot-skin effect, but I've confirmed that there are no currently manufactured surge protectors that can identify or protect you from an RPBG hot-skin condition.

Mike Sokol
www.noshockzone.org

EsoxLucius
Explorer
Explorer
Ductape Dave wrote:
Being I have a small unit with really no place to mount the hard wired one, is there any drawbacks to the Progressive portable unit.

I take it that it is waterproof and can take the abuse of the outdoor elements and does the box need to be supported at the post or is that stubby cord strong enough to support it hanging?
Should be fine, although it is water resistant not waterproof.
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Ductape_Dave
Explorer
Explorer
Being I have a small unit with really no place to mount the hard wired one, is there any drawbacks to the Progressive portable unit.

I take it that it is waterproof and can take the abuse of the outdoor elements and does the box need to be supported at the post or is that stubby cord strong enough to support it hanging?
2016 Coachmen Clipper 17BH
2016 Toyota 4Runner SR5