Bogart Solar Controller...Comments?

[Rbertalotto]

I bought a Forest River Grey Wolf Cherokee 19RR Toy Hauler and I will be adding solar. My truck camper had a 120w panel and a Morningstar PWM controller and a Bogart Trimetric monitor system. Worked fantastic with one battery and the minimal demands of a truck camper. This TH will see more people in it and more off grid demands.

My plan is two batteries (12v) and two 140 watt panels.

For control and monitoring I'm planning on the new Bogart SC-2030 solar controller and the
Bogart TM-2030A monitor system. I'll also have a Xantrex ProWatt Sw1000 inverter which I used in the TC with great results.

Anyone have any experience with this controller? Any comments on what you read below?

Thanks!

http://www.bogartengineering.com/content/solar-charger

SC-2030 SOLAR CHARGER — 30 AMPS MAX- 12 OR 24V PWM TYPE

The SC-2030 Solar Charger, working with the TM-2030 battery monitor has unusual benefits that can extend the life of your battery system. When designing the SC-2030 we checked many battery company websites, and spoke with experts in their companies to find out what they recommend for charging before we designed it. Many solar charge controllers have very limited ability to adjust--a few even charge with voltage that is lower than what any battery company recommends.

As a result of this research we've added two unusual features to insure that batteries are not damaged by over or under charging:

1.Amp hour counting: During a discharge period it measures precisely the amount of previous discharge, and then when recharging adds back the same amount plus an additional measured percentage of charge: for liquid electrolyte lead acid batteries about 110-120%--or for AGM types about 104-109%.

2. Also unusual in chargers, but frequently now recommended to maintain battery capacity is an extra higher voltage "mini equalization" finishing stage. During the last part of the charge it can increase charging voltage (at a regulated low current value) to avoid undercharge during a limited solar day. (This is sometimes called "IUI" charging.)

To match any battery type it has 8 adjustable charging parameters. To make installing these values easy, select one of 18 "battery profles" which will automatically install all these values for your particular batteries. After doing this, experts with special requirements may modify any of these.

All this is controlled by the TM-2030 Battery Monitor located in your living area--connected with a common phone cable to the SC-2030 usually located near the batteries. So in addition to high quality charging you also get all the benefits of the TM-2030 monitoring system: volts, battery amps, solar amps, extra unused power, replaced percent of charge compared to previous discharge, extra unused solar power, battery temperature and more.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

If it's user adjustable and by that I mean adjustable voltage absorbsion and adjustable time spent at maximum voltage absorbsion setpoint then he has something very valid.

If not, I want to hang around and see the little accordion arm extend grasping a hydrometer take a dip then swivel around to hold it in front of an eyeball that can interpret the bobber reading and adjust charger parameters accordingly. Algorithms are inbred with fuzzy logic. And fuzzy logic is weighted assumptions. Sorta like figuring out exactly how long the ladies are going to stay in the restroom.

A person unable or unwilling to learn enough about battery management is as capable as a driver who failed a driving test 11-times. They, not anyone else need to comprehend their limitations. Someone tries their best to resolve an irresolvable problem. Such a solution is a mere "Least of all evils" compromise. If you wish to join that level of incompetence, so be it. But keep your position in proper orientation and perspective.

Note that until defined this cannot possibly pass judgement on a new product. It all depends on how much it lets a person think and decide for himself.

[BFL13]

grizzzman wrote:

BFL13 wrote:

smkettner wrote:
Bogart will automatically adjust absorption time based on charge level.
This is the largest hurdle in solar or any other charging for that matter.
Bogart controller/monitor should serve you very well.

Yes, ---if it has the charge level right, which is my point at issue.

I love my Tri, but I have to decide what it "really means by what it is saying" based on various things at the time. I don't think the solar controller tied to the Tri can do that.

If the solar controller by itself-- nothing to do with the Tri-- has adjustable voltages and timings, then that can make it superior to others which don't. (Depending on price and how your scenario can take advantage of that to make it "worth it")

My hydrometer disagrees with your statement........

Then you must have things just right.

I do solar from April till October and while not having the new Tri controller, I do have a Tri and an hydrometer. I get good results with various controllers I have had over the time since on solar starting in 2011. My hydrometer says how it is all going from day to day.

My Tri is very good at being an ammeter, voltmeter, and AH counter (but that needs "interpretation" by me depending on the situation)

I totally disagree that 97% = 100% which apparently the Tri guy thinks is it is. Then it has tons of geeky "history" stuff in its geeky program that seems to depend on the accuracy of the 97% = 100% notion in the first place! What a farce! IMO of course---maybe I am too stupid to appreciate all its virtues. Don't know.

It looks to me that the Tri guy has got carried away with his own inner-geek and come out with a "matching" controller, so that controller depends on the Tri to be right and mine sure isn't right a lot of the time (but I know how to allow for that) so how can the controller be so wonderful?

I get the SG up to "baseline" true full despite what the Tri says at the time (and then reset the Tri) and I don't have the magic Tri controller. Anybody can get the job done with a variety of equipment choices as long as he knows what is really going on. You don't need the Tri controller working with the Tri (the blind leading the blind!) to keep your batteries up to speed.

[grizzzman]

BFL13 wrote:

smkettner wrote:
Bogart will automatically adjust absorption time based on charge level.
This is the largest hurdle in solar or any other charging for that matter.
Bogart controller/monitor should serve you very well.

Yes, ---if it has the charge level right, which is my point at issue.

I love my Tri, but I have to decide what it "really means by what it is saying" based on various things at the time. I don't think the solar controller tied to the Tri can do that.

If the solar controller by itself-- nothing to do with the Tri-- has adjustable voltages and timings, then that can make it superior to others which don't. (Depending on price and how your scenario can take advantage of that to make it "worth it")

My hydrometer disagrees with your statement........

[grizzzman]

Unbelievable............ Simply Unbelievable......... A simple question about a system. Yet not one "nay sayer" Has EVER even seen the system let alone run it?
Realy?

Lets talk about Ralph Hiesey the engineer,founder and owner of Bogart Engineering.
For a long time Ralph has "lived" in a solar home. He understands what batteries
Need. He could not understand why so many solar charge controllers were not adjustable as needed to meet the "battery manufacturers" charging specs. So he built one that is VERY adjustable. He also built in many "presets" for popular batteries for the person that doesnt understand all the settings. For the power user there are many adjustments, ending amps, amp hours used, voltage, time,finish absorb with anps clamped (IUI) charging overcharging % etc. Download the SC2030 and the TM2030 manuels and see for your self.

I have run the system sence early spring and it works as stated in the manuel.
A great working system to be shure.

[BFL13]

smkettner wrote:
Bogart will automatically adjust absorption time based on charge level.
This is the largest hurdle in solar or any other charging for that matter.
Bogart controller/monitor should serve you very well.

Yes, ---if it has the charge level right, which is my point at issue.

I love my Tri, but I have to decide what it "really means by what it is saying" based on various things at the time. I don't think the solar controller tied to the Tri can do that.

If the solar controller by itself-- nothing to do with the Tri-- has adjustable voltages and timings, then that can make it superior to others which don't. (Depending on price and how your scenario can take advantage of that to make it "worth it")

[time2roll]

Bogart will automatically adjust absorption time based on charge level.
This is the largest hurdle in solar or any other charging for that matter.
Bogart controller/monitor should serve you very well.

[BFL13]

Did Mex really get that all typed out on his tiny finger-busting gizmo that Niner sent him? Wow!

[NinerBikes]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
"javascript:;Oh I gots the buzzwords....I got the buzzwords reeeal baad"

Yet the public laps it up. And they ---- and moan for more. They adopt it as rote to be repeated to everyone they meet. Noy just repeat....emphasized, argued about, red faces, neck veins standing out.

God, how I would hate to be involved in manufacturing today. Exaggerations, lies, **** & bull, ridiculous to the point of absurdity.

And the public laps it up and gets enraged when someone challenges it.

You're on a 360' submersible in the World War II Pacific ocean. Your LIFE depends on the capabilities of the engineering officer, non-coms, and rates assigned to the electrical department. Below you awaits crush depth.

Ya believe lead acid floode'd batteries have evolved since those days? Yes they have FOR MODERN DAY SUBMARINES. Your RV battery is as sophisticated as a hankie of snot compared to a World War II submarine battery. A little more than seventy years have passed. The only REAL improvement in ANY area is the advent of some digital precision instrumentation and memory to keep track of energy
transactions.

The rest of it is Hoo-Hah.

It takes a lot of energy to heat up the most pathetic group 24 RV battery. Sustained, high wattage. "Oh we gots an oven that does cakes and pastries of your dreams! Pulse heating, with sonic conditioning. You've never seen anything like this!"

And god forbid the public would lap it up. Take away the temperature dial. Make it Plug & Play. "Press the CAKE button and you will never draw out an inferior cake again!"

Mexico is worse. They peddle T.V. miracle weight loss pills (caffeine and an alkaloid ingredient to make the sucker I mean customer slightly nauseous). TAKE 20-MIUTES BEFORE MEALS! Thirty bucks for No-Doz and a weak emetic. Hell no you won't eat. For awhile.

A person can't fight this kind of delusion. When fiction stops rationalization takes over. A dominating psyche (another name for jerk) gets ahold of one of these hare-brained sales schemes and stands on his head trying to convince others "his" opinion must dominate, reality becomes a lost cause.

If a person refuses to think. Organizes his life around the upcoming issue of Hustler, the playoffs, and the promising 2 for 1 case beer sale at the Booze Barn, he's going to fall for the con artist chicanery hook-line-sinker-rod-reel-boat-lake-and state park. The problem is too many of these "individuals" shout, roar and scream when someone suggests their delusions are not valid for everyone.

Some people remain gladly content conducting their life shortcutting reality. They are entitled to do it any way they wish. it's when some of these folks try to convince others by vocal strong-arming is when I get my dander up.

With regards to the BOGART UNIT, if the controller allows the user flexibility and durability, I would consider the unit. If the instructions say "Just settle back, we'll do it all" is when I get nervous. I consider my electrical purchases using hard numbers. "Hard" means accurate and verifiable reference.

Common sense means figuring out burning three hundred dollars worth of fuel on a thousand dollar generator to allow forty dollars worth of additional battery lifespan is not exactly a brilliant concept. When two hundred dollars worth cost of transportation is necessary to obtain the forty dollar's worth of lifespan it compounds the unwise methodology.

But how these geniuses figure a voltage controlled charge rate is going to overheat a battery right off the bat will have to remain one of those unsolvable mysteries like what happens beyond the event horizon of a rapidly rotating black hole.

I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that recreational drugs heavily influences the process of thought in the manufacturing industry today. Far too many times I have conversed with application engineers who totally forgot the content of a previous mathematical or chemical formula they just expressed. It really is depressing. Especially when the formula just expressed was pure gobbledygook.

Try and find information, excerpts of submarine battery management. The information is absolutely valid if the source is BuShips.

But since its release I found the theme of THE STEPFORD WIVES to have an irrepressible appeal to it. So I do express a major logic fault...

Tell us how you REALLY feel, mexicowanderer!

[MEXICOWANDERER]

"javascript:;Oh I gots the buzzwords....I got the buzzwords reeeal baad"

Yet the public laps it up. And they ---- and moan for more. They adopt it as rote to be repeated to everyone they meet. Noy just repeat....emphasized, argued about, red faces, neck veins standing out.

God, how I would hate to be involved in manufacturing today. Exaggerations, lies, **** & bull, ridiculous to the point of absurdity.

And the public laps it up and gets enraged when someone challenges it.

You're on a 360' submersible in the World War II Pacific ocean. Your LIFE depends on the capabilities of the engineering officer, non-coms, and rates assigned to the electrical department. Below you awaits crush depth.

Ya believe lead acid floode'd batteries have evolved since those days? Yes they have FOR MODERN DAY SUBMARINES. Your RV battery is as sophisticated as a hankie of snot compared to a World War II submarine battery. A little more than seventy years have passed. The only REAL improvement in ANY area is the advent of some digital precision instrumentation and memory to keep track of energy
transactions.

The rest of it is Hoo-Hah.

It takes a lot of energy to heat up the most pathetic group 24 RV battery. Sustained, high wattage. "Oh we gots an oven that does cakes and pastries of your dreams! Pulse heating, with sonic conditioning. You've never seen anything like this!"

And god forbid the public would lap it up. Take away the temperature dial. Make it Plug & Play. "Press the CAKE button and you will never draw out an inferior cake again!"

Mexico is worse. They peddle T.V. miracle weight loss pills (caffeine and an alkaloid ingredient to make the sucker I mean customer slightly nauseous). TAKE 20-MIUTES BEFORE MEALS! Thirty bucks for No-Doz and a weak emetic. Hell no you won't eat. For awhile.

A person can't fight this kind of delusion. When fiction stops rationalization takes over. A dominating psyche (another name for jerk) gets ahold of one of these hare-brained sales schemes and stands on his head trying to convince others "his" opinion must dominate, reality becomes a lost cause.

If a person refuses to think. Organizes his life around the upcoming issue of Hustler, the playoffs, and the promising 2 for 1 case beer sale at the Booze Barn, he's going to fall for the con artist chicanery hook-line-sinker-rod-reel-boat-lake-and state park. The problem is too many of these "individuals" shout, roar and scream when someone suggests their delusions are not valid for everyone.

Some people remain gladly content conducting their life shortcutting reality. They are entitled to do it any way they wish. it's when some of these folks try to convince others by vocal strong-arming is when I get my dander up.

With regards to the BOGART UNIT, if the controller allows the user flexibility and durability, I would consider the unit. If the instructions say "Just settle back, we'll do it all" is when I get nervous. I consider my electrical purchases using hard numbers. "Hard" means accurate and verifiable reference.

Common sense means figuring out burning three hundred dollars worth of fuel on a thousand dollar generator to allow forty dollars worth of additional battery lifespan is not exactly a brilliant concept. When two hundred dollars worth cost of transportation is necessary to obtain the forty dollar's worth of lifespan it compounds the unwise methodology.

But how these geniuses figure a voltage controlled charge rate is going to overheat a battery right off the bat will have to remain one of those unsolvable mysteries like what happens beyond the event horizon of a rapidly rotating black hole.

I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that recreational drugs heavily influences the process of thought in the manufacturing industry today. Far too many times I have conversed with application engineers who totally forgot the content of a previous mathematical or chemical formula they just expressed. It really is depressing. Especially when the formula just expressed was pure gobbledygook.

Try and find information, excerpts of submarine battery management. The information is absolutely valid if the source is BuShips.

But since its release I found the theme of THE STEPFORD WIVES to have an irrepressible appeal to it. So I do express a major logic fault...

[Bend]

Mex likes Bogart concept too:

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 08/13/14 11:59am


Has BOGART ENGINEERING introduced that new PWM charger yet?

Adjustable absorsorbion voltage limit and TIME at absorbsion limit before reverting to adjustable float.

My money is on BOGART for panel OCV to 22 volts.

Someone finally got their head out of their (ummmm...) desk drawer, when conceptualizing what a battery actually demands.

I can only wonder what the price will be. But as far as PWM controllers this protocol is the way-to-go IMHO. With those inexpensive 17 watt WV el cheapo panels, we talkin' do-able for us po folk.

http://forums.motorhomemagazine.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27564146/print/true.cfm

[Snowman9000]

Check out the Handy Bob Solar blog. He really likes it.

[Rbertalotto]

Thanks, this is the type of information I'm looking for. All sounds good in an advertisement .....

[Stefonius]

(singing) Don't Bogart the Sun, my friend...

[BFL13]

Rbertalotto wrote:
Interesting...I just found this information on the Bogart charge controller....

pre-absorb boost charging is not recommended by any battery manufacturers that I know of. It only works on batteries that have been moderately cycled where it can be used to take advantage of peak solar conditions at solar noon, and without excessive heating of the battery. For batteries that have been discharged to 50% SOC it will get your battery way too hot by forcing too many amps into it at the higher boost voltage for the first hour.

Finish charging (delayed boost) is different. It is an algorithm designed to limit current to the battery to no more than C/10 to prevent excessive water use and heating of the battery. And at the same time provide a high voltage finish stage that fully desulfates the negative plates. It is now almost the industry standard recommend charge profile (Trojan, US Battery, Surrette, and all industrial forklift/floor maintenance, locomotive and marine batteries). Industrial grid-powered forklift/floor maintenance and marine chargers have used it for years (IUIa with no float). Currently there are only two RE chargers that I know of that can do it - the XW from Schneider and the SC-2030 from Bogart. Of the two, only the Bogart SC-2030 does it correctly.

No idea what pre-absorb boost means here. Never heard of it. Usually you just start charging by charger or solar controller and it eventually gets the batts to the absorption voltage, whatever that is set at (often 14.4 or 14.8 whatever) The batteries can take lots of amps during this "bulk" stage.

The "new" Finish Stage may not be necessary when on daily shallow cycles on solar such as 80-99s (you don't often get to 100) You can tell by your SG if you need any "overcharging" to get the SG right up. My four 6s don't need that when on daily solar shallow cycle, but they do need the high voltage finish if they have been doing successive 50-90s as with no solar camping.

But any old solar controller can do all that as long as you can adjust the voltage set point Vabs. Even better if you can also adjust its Float voltage.

The Trimetric is way too elaborate IMO and I don't like their whole notion of what it means to be a "full" battery. The allowance for heat during charging is an approximation so the AH counter gets off track after a while and needs a reset. Battery capacity varies a lot with temperature, which varies a lot. IMO their whole % full reading method is bogus.

So making the solar controller tie in with the over-elaborate and often wrong Tri is just hocus -pocus extreme geekiness with no real value compared with any standard controller IMO. YMMV of course 🙂

[NinerBikes]

If mexicowanderer was not in a storm, and could be connected to the internet, he'd tell you the "New" industry standard is a farce, and that it's been hampered by attorneys and potential lawsuits for rare operator error for batteries that blow up, and that pulse charging makes no difference, it's a gimmick.

"Of the two, only the Bogart 2030 does it correctly" yeah, right. You'll need some of this to go with that statement.



There are many ways to skin a cat, there is no only "one right way", it depends what parameters are more important to you in battery recharging needs. There's tradeoffs, time and money.

If the Bogart claims make you happy, spend your money and buy it. Or spend your money on some good deep cycle batteries instead.